Date   

Re: New '37 AAR box cars with Deco and NSC-2 ends

rdgbuff56
 

Does anyone know if the IMRC model has Viking roof and 3 panel doors? Maybe someone could post a few photos.

Francis A. Pehowic

On Tuesday, March 17, 2020, 10:18:00 AM EDT, Clark Propst <cepropst@q.com> wrote:


I built a C&O model years ago using a Des Plaines Viking roof kit. I used Keith Reterrer (sp) ends and doors. Also used his 3 panel doors on M&StL auto cars. Talked to Kieth about his castings at CCB. Sounded like he can still produce them. I think his are better looking than the IM model myself.
CW Propst


Re: Photo: Barrels in A Boxcar

Garth Groff and Sally Sanford
 

Jerry and friends,

The unusual Pullman-built Hercules cars are shown in the CAR BUILDERS CYCLOPEDIA during the late 1930s in Pullman's ads. I have a photocopy and it is marked as page 329. Since the Hercules car shares the page with AT&SF boxcar 136299 which has a 5-36 built date, we can surmise this was a 1937 or later edition. The car in question is HCCX 1001, and is marked boldly "HERCULES PORTLAND CEMENT IN BULK, presumably black lettering on a gray car. The car has slab sides with no outside bracing. The car body stops at about the truck bolsters, much like a tank car, and the ladders and end braces slope diagonally out toward the end sills in an almost European fashion. The trucks are Andrews. I can't read the build date, but it was probably 1929. A most interesting car, but already obsolete by the time the ad was published.

In 1932, the C&O began converting small lots of their coal hoppers to covered hoppers for cement service. The D&H  showed a similar converted car in RAILWAY MECHANICAL ENGINEERING in 1933. And let's not forget that the D&H also converted boxcars to permanent cement service with hatches and floor gates, as did some other roads. In 1934 the Erie purchased their series 20000-20049 cars with a 1321 cu ft capacity from Greenville, which except for its rather small size was similar in appearance to later 70-ton cars. PRR added their giant H30 class in 1935. By 1937 several major builders were churning out the 70-ton 1958 cu ft cars we know and love, and there are several examples in the Gregg CBC reprint for 1940.

Was the idea new? No. As early as 1898 there were wooden cars being built with the classic covered hopper features of roof hatches and floor gates. MR had a plan for one of these in the 1960s, and claimed they were offered in both standard and narrow gauges. (I built one in HOn3 from that plan, I think my second scratch-built car, but of course we don't pay any attention to narrow gauge, do we.)

I suspect that the massive need for cement during the post-war boom, with ready-mix plants in every town, made the covered hopper a much more attractive way to deliver cement. Barrels probably were gone by the early 1950s in favor of bulk or sacks. Sacked cement was easier to handle for small jobs, no doubt cheaper to package, and continues to be popular today.

Yours Aye,

Garth Groff  🦆


On Thu, Mar 19, 2020 at 11:26 AM Jerry Dziedzic <jerdz@...> wrote:
A few thoughts to add to Mal's.  Cement packaging long relied on barrels and cloth bags.  I credit Hercules Cement with the first rail shipments in covered hoppers, in 1929.  Tony Thompson has a photo of bulk cement in a boxcar during the construction of Shasta Dam in the 1940's; imagine unloading that one!  It's my guess that bulk eliminated barrels, but I don't know when.  I don't know when paper sacks replaced cloth, either; about the same time flour made the change?  I have LCL waybills from the early 1940's returning bundles of cloth bags to cement mills.

Weight is the advantage a sack has over a barrel. One sack contains a cubic foot of cement weighing 94 lbs, more easily carried to a small job site.  A barrel's volume was 4 cu. ft. so a barrel weighed 376 lbs. Boxcar loads of sacks from Lehigh Valley cement producers were common in the 60's and early 70's  Much cement still moves in sacks, though now by truck.

Pennsylvania's Public Utilities Commission permitted highway bulk transport in 1958, as I remember.  Wish I were near my files to confirm this date.

Jerry Dziedzic


Re: Photo: Barrels in A Boxcar

Charles Peck
 

The fellow on the right appears to me to have goggles up on his forehead.
Posing for his picture, perhaps?  N95 being in the future, I guess a wet cloth
on his face might be some protection.
Chuck Peck

On Thu, Mar 19, 2020 at 12:45 PM Bob Chaparro via Groups.Io <chiefbobbb=verizon.net@groups.io> wrote:
Bulk cement...lots of labor at the receiving end.
Bob Chaparro
Hemet, CA


Re: Adjusting the gondola fleet

Chuck Cover
 

Group,

 

There are a few more car card/waybill systems out there that give operators a lot more options than the most common 4 position card in envelope that most folks use.  I use a computerized waybill system that prints out up to 14 destinations for each car card thus adding many more destinations before the operators see the car headed back to the same old industry.  For more information see the OPSIG web site in “The Dispatcher's Office”, Official Journal of the Operations Special Interest Group.  The system that I mentioned was covered in the July 2017 issue.

 

Chuck Cover

Santa Fe, NM


Re: Photo: Barrels in A Boxcar

Bill J.
 

That's how cement was delivered to the dam projects on the Hetch Hetchy RR (connection with the Sierra RR).

Bill Jolitz


Re: Photo: Freight Cars At Armourdale, Kansas City, Kansas

Schuyler Larrabee
 

What a great photo!  And not just because it has an ERIE box car in it, “wrong way door” and all.  😊  It also has a couple of obligatory NP cars.

 

The older I get the older my freight car interest gets.

 

Schuyler

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bob Chaparro via Groups.Io
Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2020 12:38 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Freight Cars At Armourdale, Kansas City, Kansas

 

Photo: Freight Cars At Armourdale, Kansas City, Kansas

A 1915 photo from the Kansas City Public Library:

https://pendergastkc.org/collection/9130/10008062/morris-co-and-swift-co-plants-armourdale/47662

Caption: "Photograph of the Morris & Company (left) and the Swift & Company (right background) packing plants in Armourdale, Kansas City, Kansas. This vantage point faces south from the Kansas side of the Central Avenue bridge over the Kansas River. Morris & Company was once located where Interstate 670 runs just west of the Kansas River."

Scroll on the photo to enlarge it.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Re: Photo: Barrels in A Boxcar

Bob Chaparro
 

Bulk cement...lots of labor at the receiving end.
Bob Chaparro
Hemet, CA


Photo: Freight Cars At Armourdale, Kansas City, Kansas

Bob Chaparro
 

Photo: Freight Cars At Armourdale, Kansas City, Kansas

A 1915 photo from the Kansas City Public Library:

https://pendergastkc.org/collection/9130/10008062/morris-co-and-swift-co-plants-armourdale/47662

Caption: "Photograph of the Morris & Company (left) and the Swift & Company (right background) packing plants in Armourdale, Kansas City, Kansas. This vantage point faces south from the Kansas side of the Central Avenue bridge over the Kansas River. Morris & Company was once located where Interstate 670 runs just west of the Kansas River."

Scroll on the photo to enlarge it.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Re: Adjusting the gondola fleet

Brian Carlson
 

I realize all that.

 I was responding to the OP’s comment that he “only room for 2 additional gondolas in the fleet due to a limited amount and length of the staging tracks.” 

Those 2 gons are going to stand out if used every session. 



Brian J. Carlson 

On Mar 19, 2020, at 11:22 AM, Jim Betz <jimbetz@...> wrote:

Brian,
  Although what you say is correct - there are some things you can do to
'mix it up' that lessen how many off layout cars you need/need to swap
in and out ...
  Don't let your crews always take the same jobs.
  Use 4 part way bills.
  Swap way bills between cars of the same type between sessions or
even between trips out of staging (fiddle the way bills in staging).
  Add in the specific 'demand for and response to' empties - most let
the waybills act as the empty supply ... if you have a yard clerk job
you can model the actual empty supply part of the equation.  You
can even add in that the clerk has to pay attention to the car
forwarding rules and the captive service cars.
  Add in "clean out track" operations (yeah, I know, this is difficult to
do with existing trackage).  Or maybe your boxes/drawers of 'extra'
cars can model that - first the car goes to staging, then it gets its
waybill pulled, then it goes to the cleanout drawer, then to the 
available drawer, then back to staging, then a waybill assigned
and actually in a train for the next op?  Perhaps the cars in 
staging get "clean out waybills"?
  Modernize an industry (swap in a different structure?) and change
its demand from 40' cars to 50 footers.
  Recruit from a larger crew base - so that not everyone is always
the same.  One layout I know puts out a 'call for operators' once
a month - his crew size is 18! - he has about 25-30 guys on his
call list.  First 18 responders get jobs, the rest wait till next
month.  He often fills his crew in under 48 hours and has filled it
as little as 4 hours.  Yes, his crew calls go out in emails and the
responses are emails.  He puts out his call "about 10 days before
the Op".
                                                                                - Jim.

    O


Re: Photo: Barrels in A Boxcar

Jerry Dziedzic
 

A few thoughts to add to Mal's.  Cement packaging long relied on barrels and cloth bags.  I credit Hercules Cement with the first rail shipments in covered hoppers, in 1929.  Tony Thompson has a photo of bulk cement in a boxcar during the construction of Shasta Dam in the 1940's; imagine unloading that one!  It's my guess that bulk eliminated barrels, but I don't know when.  I don't know when paper sacks replaced cloth, either; about the same time flour made the change?  I have LCL waybills from the early 1940's returning bundles of cloth bags to cement mills.

Weight is the advantage a sack has over a barrel. One sack contains a cubic foot of cement weighing 94 lbs, more easily carried to a small job site.  A barrel's volume was 4 cu. ft. so a barrel weighed 376 lbs. Boxcar loads of sacks from Lehigh Valley cement producers were common in the 60's and early 70's  Much cement still moves in sacks, though now by truck.

Pennsylvania's Public Utilities Commission permitted highway bulk transport in 1958, as I remember.  Wish I were near my files to confirm this date.

Jerry Dziedzic


Re: Adjusting the gondola fleet

Jim Betz
 

Brian,
  Although what you say is correct - there are some things you can do to
'mix it up' that lessen how many off layout cars you need/need to swap
in and out ...
  Don't let your crews always take the same jobs.
  Use 4 part way bills.
  Swap way bills between cars of the same type between sessions or
even between trips out of staging (fiddle the way bills in staging).
  Add in the specific 'demand for and response to' empties - most let
the waybills act as the empty supply ... if you have a yard clerk job
you can model the actual empty supply part of the equation.  You
can even add in that the clerk has to pay attention to the car
forwarding rules and the captive service cars.
  Add in "clean out track" operations (yeah, I know, this is difficult to
do with existing trackage).  Or maybe your boxes/drawers of 'extra'
cars can model that - first the car goes to staging, then it gets its
waybill pulled, then it goes to the cleanout drawer, then to the 
available drawer, then back to staging, then a waybill assigned
and actually in a train for the next op?  Perhaps the cars in 
staging get "clean out waybills"?
  Modernize an industry (swap in a different structure?) and change
its demand from 40' cars to 50 footers.
  Recruit from a larger crew base - so that not everyone is always
the same.  One layout I know puts out a 'call for operators' once
a month - his crew size is 18! - he has about 25-30 guys on his
call list.  First 18 responders get jobs, the rest wait till next
month.  He often fills his crew in under 48 hours and has filled it
as little as 4 hours.  Yes, his crew calls go out in emails and the
responses are emails.  He puts out his call "about 10 days before
the Op".
                                                                                - Jim.

    O


Re: Adjusting the gondola fleet

Schuyler Larrabee
 

 

On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 02:34 PM, Brian Carlson wrote:

Who models their fleet based on staging? (Other than maybe Clark P) you should have some off-layout storage also or you’re gonna get bored with the same cars and your operators will begin to know where to route a car automatically. 

Brian J. Carlson 

 

And our friend Clark responded:

 

Ah! That's where your ops strategy comes in. I operate on layouts using 4 place bills and yes you learn what goes where. IF the cars are 'noticeable' meaning bright colors or unusual design. My gon's, hoppers all look pretty much alike, so there's no memory retention. Cars carry the same load, but seldom go to the same customers each ops. Operators are more interested in what goes where rather than the model, especial if they're generic looking.
CW Propst

 

That’s exactly correct, Clark.  I operate on a club layout where we use +/- 300-350 cars in the freight car fleet.  Our “Classic” operations are two sequential months, followed by two months of “Modern” ops, then back to Classic, and so on.  So even though I only participate I the “Classic” sessions, with that spacing out of the sessions  and I can think right now of about five cars that show up randomly, every four or five months, when they show up in the yard, I don’t have to look at the waybill – I know what train I should put it in.  The waybills for all the other cars change, even for tank cars, so everything else requires looking at the waybill to establish where it goes from here.  Much more engaging of brain and pleasure.

 

And as much as I like that “brick” car, that’s why I am unlikely to build one.

 

Schuyler

 


Re: Bob's Photos

Eric Hansmann
 

Bob also sells Tichy parts, in case you need supplies.

 

 

Eric Hansmann

Murfreesboro, TN

 

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Schleigh Mike via Groups.Io
Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2020 9:52 AM
To: STMFC <main@realstmfc.groups.io>; Steam Freight Car <realstmfc@groups.io>
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Bob's Photos

 

Hello Freight Car Aficionados!

 

Yesterday I received a nice package of photos from Bob Liljestrand.  Speaking with him on the phone, I learned that he is more than willing to offer his services if you wish to write or call to discuss specifics.  His details are as follows---

 

Bob’s Photo

P. O. Box 52

Wallingford, KY  41093    Phone----606-845-3323

 

Most of you know he has neither email nor a web site AND no catalog.  However, if you request something like a C&O boxcar in the group 18500-18999, he can probably help you.

 

Like most of us, Bob is stuck at home with all near-term train shows/meets cancelled.  He would appreciate the chance to help you with any photos he might have.  He likes to talk too.

 

I have no skin in this message and I trust I can be forgiven its posting at this time.

 

Kind regards from wet Grove City, Penna,

Where the skunk cabbage is emerging---Mike Schleigh


Bob's Photos

Schleigh Mike
 

Hello Freight Car Aficionados!

Yesterday I received a nice package of photos from Bob Liljestrand.  Speaking with him on the phone, I learned that he is more than willing to offer his services if you wish to write or call to discuss specifics.  His details are as follows---

Bob’s Photo

P. O. Box 52

Wallingford, KY  41093    Phone----606-845-3323

Most of you know he has neither email nor a web site AND no catalog.  However, if you request something like a C&O boxcar in the group 18500-18999, he can probably help you.

Like most of us, Bob is stuck at home with all near-term train shows/meets cancelled.  He would appreciate the chance to help you with any photos he might have.  He likes to talk too.

I have no skin in this message and I trust I can be forgiven its posting at this time.

Kind regards from wet Grove City, Penna,
Where the skunk cabbage is emerging---Mike Schleigh


Re: Adjusting the gondola fleet

Clark Propst
 

On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 02:34 PM, Brian Carlson wrote:
Who models their fleet based on staging? (Other than maybe Clark P) you should have some off-layout storage also or you’re gonna get bored with the same cars and your operators will begin to know where to route a car automatically. 

Brian J. Carlson 
 
Ah! That's where your ops strategy comes in. I operate on layouts using 4 place bills and yes you learn what goes where. IF the cars are 'noticeable' meaning bright colors or unusual design. My gon's, hoppers all look pretty much alike, so there's no memory retention. Cars carry the same load, but seldom go to the same customers each ops. Operators are more interested in what goes where rather than the model, especial if they're generic looking.
CW Propst
 


Re: Photo: Barrels in A Boxcar

Paul Woods <paul@...>
 

Was there an expectation that empty barrels would be returned?

Regards
Paul Woods


---- On Thu, 19 Mar 2020 02:48:13 +1300 Malcolm H. Houck via Groups.Io <Indian640@...> wrote ----

Barrels for cement were indeed very common and the Rosendale Consolidated Cement Company (Rosendale NY) shipped over 100 paper -lined barrels of cement per day in the early days of the last century. Interestingly that need created an entire sub-set enterprise of barrel manufacture, leading to the development of mechanization of the barrel manufacture; -- machining the croze in the staves, jigs for assembling the bottoms and lids. specialty machinery for milling the staves and, lastly (among other things) an assembly machine to grasp and close the staves while the steel hoops were slid and pressed over the staves.

Mal Houck
_._,_._,_





Re: Adjusting the gondola fleet

Brian Carlson
 

Who models their fleet based on staging? (Other than maybe Clark P) you should have some off-layout storage also or you’re gonna get bored with the same cars and your operators will begin to know where to route a car automatically. 

Brian J. Carlson 

On Mar 18, 2020, at 3:31 PM, Fran Giacoma <frangiacoma@...> wrote:

Thank you John for the info and attachment. This will help me narrow down my choices as I have only room for 2 additional gondolas in the fleet due to a limited amount and length of the staging tracks.

Fran Giacoma


Re: Photo: Barrels in A Boxcar

Aley, Jeff A
 

Guy,

 

               Thanks for the answers.  I’m glad to have learned something new today.

 

Regards,

 

-Jeff

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Guy Wilber via Groups.Io
Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2020 12:40 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Barrels in A Boxcar

 



Jeff wrote:

 

“I see a series of at least 5 rings where the car side meets the roof.  What are they?”

 

Lifting rings to which chain blocks were attached for lifting automobiles or light trucks for tilting or decking prior to the more common use of Evans or NYC auto racks.  This is definitely a 40’ auto car with staggered doors.

 

“I also see something at the peak of the end (a rectangular plate with maybe a chain dangling from it?).  What is that?”

 

I see it and agree it’s very small chain or a stretch of rope, but am unsure of its purpose.

 

“Finally, in my ignorance, I am surprised that the lining of the car side does not go all the way to the floor. Are boxcars commonly built this way?”

 

Commonly referred to as “belt rails” and another staple of auto cars from the ‘teens, 1920s and 1930s.  Heavy boards for securing blocking, bracing and temporary decking.

 

Guy Wilber

Reno, Nevada


Re: Photo: Barrels in A Boxcar

Guy Wilber
 


Jeff wrote:

“I see a series of at least 5 rings where the car side meets the roof.  What are they?”

Lifting rings to which chain blocks were attached for lifting automobiles or light trucks for tilting or decking prior to the more common use of Evans or NYC auto racks.  This is definitely a 40’ auto car with staggered doors.

“I also see something at the peak of the end (a rectangular plate with maybe a chain dangling from it?).  What is that?”

I see it and agree it’s very small chain or a stretch of rope, but am unsure of its purpose.

“Finally, in my ignorance, I am surprised that the lining of the car side does not go all the way to the floor. Are boxcars commonly built this way?”

Commonly referred to as “belt rails” and another staple of auto cars from the ‘teens, 1920s and 1930s.  Heavy boards for securing blocking, bracing and temporary decking.

Guy Wilber
Reno, Nevada_._,_._,_


Re: Adjusting the gondola fleet

Fran Giacoma
 

Thank you John for the info and attachment. This will help me narrow down my choices as I have only room for 2 additional gondolas in the fleet due to a limited amount and length of the staging tracks.

Fran Giacoma

14341 - 14360 of 185040