Date   

boxcar flour loading topic

George LaPray
 

Boxcars used for bagged flour loading were most often "lined" with with heavy craft paper, this was for two principal reasons, 1. sanitary - it kept the flour bags cleaner, 2, to reduce damage to the flour sacks, the heavy paper covered over minor rough areas of the interior car lining that had a tendancy to catch on and tear the flour sacks.  Most often the lining consisted  of rolls of heavy paper which were unrolled and tacked up on the sides and floor of the boxcar.  I never saw canvas used as car lining as it would be expensive, but I certainly cannot say in never happened.  When flour cars had to be fumigated, canvas would often be used across the doorway area to help the fumigant not all escape to the atmosphere.   

The Kennedy Car Liner company made a pre-folded paper liner which could be unfolded and efficiently and quickly lined half of a 40' boxcar, so two car liners did the whole car.  The Kennedy liners were also used on boxcars for bulk flax loading, the nature of flax being that it would flow like water and leak badly from even the smallest hole in a car.  In the 70's Western RR Assn. graindoor dept. still had a large inventory of Kennedy car liners, which by that time were not seeing mush use.  I used a bunch of them to line boxcars in wood chip service which had been pressed into use to move a huge order of malting barley from Twin Cities to Mexico.  

The RRs supplied the car liners or material, but the flour mill or elevator had to pay RR is they wanted them to install them.

George
Old RR grainguy  


RI 133510 from flour loading topic (Look At The Boards)

Andy Carlson
 


From: Dave Parker

And imagine how much less perceptible the boards were when the car was new ca. 12 years earlier.  I have some 1920s builder's photos where the individual boards are virtually impossible to make out.

Andy, I gather you share my frustration with the majority of SS car models out there.  I will refrain from ranting, but this is an area of much-needed improvement in available prototype models, plastic and resin.

Dave Parker
Riverside, CA

*********************************   My earliest attempts at single sheathed pattern making for HO cars was decided before my start to have "less perceptible" individual boards. I had quickly discovered in making scale drawings of SS cars, that the need to count boards was necessary to get the board dimension heights. It was often necessary to jump from panels-to-panels when counting boards from photos, as the board separations often could not be determined. My collaborator friend in my early pattern making days was chastised sufficiently hard enough by me that he moved away from evergreen Siding for SS cars. 

My 1st Single Sheathed HO pattern is shown below. I have received complaints from fine modelers that my scribing was too faint, and if Floquil paint was used, they were probably right. Dave, I have disliked overly exagerated scribing for decades.

-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA

BTW-this is a steel Howe truss frame WP car.
Mm _,_._,_***


Re: White material protruding from car doors.

Clark Propst
 

At our retirees breakfast this morning I knew a guy I worked with started in the rail yard. I asked if they still used cloth bags when he hired on (1952)? He said they'd switched to paper, but there were still cloth bags around. 
I knew he'd been on the car cleaning crew and was a car sealer. Today he told me he was also a "Car boss". I asked what that was. He was the guy that inspected and prepared the car for loading. Which meant putting down layers of heavy gray paper on the floor. They still had rolls of that paper for years after I started. We used it as skirting on our modular layout. Anyways, the car boss was paid by the hour while the guys 'trucking' in the cement sacks were piece workers, his title didn't make up for the wage difference  : /
CW Propst


Re: RI 133510 from flour loading topic

Dennis Storzek
 

Both the Howe and Pratt trusses performed equally well in steel freight car construction, but the Howe was better suited to wood construction, since the tension members of the truss were shorter, needing not so much iron rod. IN THEORY the Pratt truss would be more efficient in steel construction, since the longer diagonal tension members could be simple round rods... in a bridge. The problem with freight cars was the tension members serve double duty as stiffeners for the lining, so must be as heavy a section as the side posts, negating any advantage of the Pratt truss design.

The easiest way to remember which is which is ALL freight cars use a Howe truss except those that look backwards, which are Pratt trusses.

Dennis Storzek


Re: RI 133510 from flour loading topic (Look At The Boards)

Bill Daniels <billinsf@...>
 

the problem isn't with the cars, it's the manufacturer's perception of what their customers want. I believe it's been tried before, but nobody bought the cars... so they now exagerate the gaps between the boards, as well as exagerating the grain (notice any visible grain in the RI car? Me neither.) Only very heavily weathered cars show grain. 

Bill Daniels 
San Francisco, CA


On Thursday, April 4, 2019, 8:20:31 AM PDT, Dave Parker via Groups.Io <spottab@...> wrote:


And imagine how much less perceptible the boards were when the car was new ca. 12 years earlier.  I have some 1920s builder's photos where the individual boards are virtually impossible to make out.

Andy, I gather you share my frustration with the majority of SS car models out there.  I will refrain from ranting, but this is an area of much-needed improvement in available prototype models, plastic and resin.

Dave Parker
Riverside, CA


Re: RI 133510 from flour loading topic (Look At The Boards)

Dave Parker
 

And imagine how much less perceptible the boards were when the car was new ca. 12 years earlier.  I have some 1920s builder's photos where the individual boards are virtually impossible to make out.

Andy, I gather you share my frustration with the majority of SS car models out there.  I will refrain from ranting, but this is an area of much-needed improvement in available prototype models, plastic and resin.

Dave Parker
Riverside, CA


RI 133510 from flour loading topic (Look At The Boards)

Andy Carlson
 

On Thursday Bob Chaparro wrote:
Notice the individual boards comprising the side sheathing on this car are almost imperceptible.
Bob Chaparro
Hemet, CA 


**************************

See any differences between real and model? Good morning, everybody!
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA
_._,_._,_





















Re: RI 133510 from flour loading topic (Look At The Boards)

Bob Chaparro
 

Notice the individual boards comprising the side sheathing on this car are almost imperceptible.
Bob Chaparro
Hemet, CA 


Re: RI 133510 from flour loading topic

Andy Carlson
 

Pratt or Truss? A very easy distinquishing way (for me); if the diagonals are in compression--it is a Howe. Otherwise, a diagonal in tension would be a Pratt.

This goes back to wood bridge construction which was passed on to car builders for decades. Wood timbers are far better at supporting trusses when they are in compression, and wooden truss bridges reflected that advantage in the Howe truss. After steel bridges became popular, the advantage for steel was in their tension (the resisting stretching being a better use of steel than compression). This was the use in Pratt trusses.

Of course, railroads often used the old wood style of trusses in car building, and much steel was wasted in making Howe trusses out of steel. The subject car is an example.

-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA

On Thursday, April 4, 2019, 1:35:00 AM PDT, Storey Lindsay <storey.lindsay@...> wrote:


Jim,

 

Look at the diagonals – if they slope UP towards the center, it is a Howe; if they slope DOWN towards the center (except for the end diagonals), it is a Pratt.

 

Storey Lindsay
Celje, Slovenia

 

From: np328
Sent: Thursday, April 4, 2019 8:54
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] RI 133510 from flour loading topic

 

Ron, 
     Howe or Pratt,
  I believe if you can put (imagine) a capital P will fit within the confines of the right side of the door frame, the roof line, and the diagonal truss, it is a Pratt.   P on the right = Pratt
If it fits where the "and" is left of the door, it is a Howe.    So I believe this is Howe. 
Someone correct me on that if I am wrong.                                                                                                      Jim Dick 

 


Throwback Thursday: Athearn Metal Tank Car Kits

Benjamin Hom
 

Athearn Tank Cars ad, December 1951 issue of Railroad Model Craftsman.


Ben Hom 


Re: White material protruding from car doors.

Clark Propst
 

When the local cement plants were using cloth bags there was a deposit on the bags and a refund when returned. Stations would hold the bags till they had enough to warrant returning. The plants had a machine to clean the returned bags and hired women to mend them. My wife's grandmother worked at that job for awhile. The plant I worked at still have one of the heavy duty sewing machines. It was used to mend our winter clothing.
CW Propst


Re: RI 133510 from flour loading topic

Bruce Smith
 

Correct - this is a Howe truss.  Lots of tricks out there. I learned that if the diagonals to the left of the center (door) form the slanted leg of the letter "R" then it is a pRatt truss. If the diagonals form a "W" leaning towards the center, then it is a hoWe truss.


Regards,

Bruce Smith

Auburn, AL




From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of np328 <jcdworkingonthenp@...>
Sent: Thursday, April 4, 2019 1:54 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] RI 133510 from flour loading topic
 
Ron, 
     Howe or Pratt,
  I believe if you can put (imagine) a capital P will fit within the confines of the right side of the door frame, the roof line, and the diagonal truss, it is a Pratt.   P on the right = Pratt
If it fits where the "and" is left of the door, it is a Howe.    So I believe this is Howe. 
Someone correct me on that if I am wrong.                                                                                                      Jim Dick 


Re: RI 133510 from flour loading topic

Storey Lindsay
 

Jim,

 

Look at the diagonals – if they slope UP towards the center, it is a Howe; if they slope DOWN towards the center (except for the end diagonals), it is a Pratt.

 

Storey Lindsay
Celje, Slovenia

 

From: np328
Sent: Thursday, April 4, 2019 8:54
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] RI 133510 from flour loading topic

 

Ron, 
     Howe or Pratt,
  I believe if you can put (imagine) a capital P will fit within the confines of the right side of the door frame, the roof line, and the diagonal truss, it is a Pratt.   P on the right = Pratt
If it fits where the "and" is left of the door, it is a Howe.    So I believe this is Howe. 
Someone correct me on that if I am wrong.                                                                                                      Jim Dick 

 


Re: RI 133510 from flour loading topic

np328
 

Ron, 
     Howe or Pratt,
  I believe if you can put (imagine) a capital P will fit within the confines of the right side of the door frame, the roof line, and the diagonal truss, it is a Pratt.   P on the right = Pratt
If it fits where the "and" is left of the door, it is a Howe.    So I believe this is Howe. 
Someone correct me on that if I am wrong.                                                                                                      Jim Dick 


Re: ATSF boxcar roof question

Dave Bayless
 

Thanks Stephen,

The info about the flat panel roof makes sense and solves that concern. I can see the info you provided matches up with a list of postwar AAR boxcars with 4-4 Improved Dreadnaught ends, compiled by Ed Hawkins that I found online. The only thing puzzling is the list shows these cars with Improved 4-4 Dreadnaught ends, but the photo definitely shows the ribs to be the “banana” taper with the top rib rectangular shape and set inward from the edge. That would make it an R+3/4 “late” Improved dreadnaught configuration. Could it be that this series of cars were placed on the wrong “list” from Ed Hawkins, or could it be that sometime these cars, (or this one car) was rebuilt for some reason? If anyone has this book, Classic Freight Cars, Vol 7 and on page 30. The ATSF boxcar appears in the background of the photo highlighting an IC Dbl-Dr boxcar.

Dave

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of James SANDIFER
Sent: Wednesday, April 3, 2019 2:35 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] ATSF boxcar roof question

 

BX-51, 274750-275499, Blt. 1948, ran until 1981, 40’9”, IH 10’6”, 6/5/5Youngstown lightweight doors, 4/4 Improved Dreadnaught ends, Raised Panel roof, steel running board, AAR welded underframe, ASF-A3 trucks.

 

 

J. Stephen Sandifer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Dave Bayless
Sent: Wednesday, April 3, 2019 4:16 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] ATSF boxcar roof question

 

Not sure if this question is just within the time frame for this group, but if not just let me know. I have a picture of ATSF boxcar 275357 on page 30 of “Classic Freight Cars” the Series vol 7 “more 40’ boxcars”. The ends appear to be R+3/4, sides 12 panel welded with 6’ YSD dr with 5/5/4 configuration. But I tell exactly what the roof is and have not been able to find another photo of boxcars in this series. The roof appears to be either a flat paneled roof or possibly a DP roof. Does anyone know what this roof is or can you point me to another photo of cars in this series. I was thinking of kitbashing a model of this from the Accurail kit 1500 AAR 40’boxcar. Thanks for your help

Dave

 

 

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Re: RI 133510 from flour loading topic

John Hagen <sprinthag@...>
 

Well,

Sometimes it seems the 12 inch/foot guys don’t take the time to make their stuff look as good as the small scale modelers do.

Maybe their eye sight is getting poor.

John Hagen

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Jon Miller
Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2019 11:48 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] RI 133510 from flour loading topic

 

On 4/3/2019 9:38 AM, mopacfirst wrote:

My question is, what is it, detail-wise? 

    I find it interesting that the weight decals are not in alignment.

-- 
Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax  Chief/Zephyr systems, 
SPROG, JMRI User
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Re: ATSF boxcar roof question

James SANDIFER
 

BX-51, 274750-275499, Blt. 1948, ran until 1981, 40’9”, IH 10’6”, 6/5/5Youngstown lightweight doors, 4/4 Improved Dreadnaught ends, Raised Panel roof, steel running board, AAR welded underframe, ASF-A3 trucks.

 

 

J. Stephen Sandifer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Dave Bayless
Sent: Wednesday, April 3, 2019 4:16 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] ATSF boxcar roof question

 

Not sure if this question is just within the time frame for this group, but if not just let me know. I have a picture of ATSF boxcar 275357 on page 30 of “Classic Freight Cars” the Series vol 7 “more 40’ boxcars”. The ends appear to be R+3/4, sides 12 panel welded with 6’ YSD dr with 5/5/4 configuration. But I tell exactly what the roof is and have not been able to find another photo of boxcars in this series. The roof appears to be either a flat paneled roof or possibly a DP roof. Does anyone know what this roof is or can you point me to another photo of cars in this series. I was thinking of kitbashing a model of this from the Accurail kit 1500 AAR 40’boxcar. Thanks for your help

Dave

 

 

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Re: White material protruding from car doors.

Marty McGuirk
 

Here’s a Sanborn Map of the feed mill in Richford, Vermont dating to 1920.  


Based on the freight cars, I believe this photo is later than the map shown - but predates the addition of the silos. (Sorry, I can’t credit the photo, I purchased it on eBay a few years ago and there’s nothing but a number written on the back).

 

Marty McGuirk


On Apr 3, 2019, at 4:17 PM, Donald B. Valentine via Groups.Io <riverman_vt@...> wrote:

Hi Dennis,

    As we both know, you aren't that much younger than me so I'm surprised it was your grandmother that kept the printed cotton
flour bags rather than your mother. Perhaps your grandmother had access to them and your mother did not. In any case in the
postwar years into the early 1950's a lot of types of grain were bagged in calico cotton bags. I know that chick feed, pig feed and 
calf feed was but not the coarser dairy and horse feeds. It was more that were made from these bags and it was always interesting
to see a farm wife looking for a particular pattern on a bag of feed because she didn't have enough cloth of that particular pattern for
something she wished to make. My own sister had nice dresses made from this material and so did several of my elementary school
classmates that came from farm families. I wish we had those days back now for dairymen. We are down to only 750 farms left in
Vermont when we used to have more than that in one county. To keep Mike happy I should mention that the vast majority of feed
stocks in those days was delivered to the destination area from the grain mills by rail. The Processed In Transit rates applied to
both the raw grains moving by rail to the feed mills, of which we had many in Vermont in those years, and shipment of the finished
grain to the local dealer as well. In the early 1960's I used to help a close friend deliver two 40 ft. boxcar loads of grain shipped from
the H. K Webster (Blue Seal Feeds) plant that is right tight to the Canadian Border in Richford, VT to the public delivery track in 
Waterbury every other Monday and Tuesday afternoon, once he was done with his milk (in 40 qt. cans) route in the morning. The 
H. K. Webster mill was switched by the CPR but much of the grain was taken only two miles to the interchange with the Central 
Vermont's Missisquoi Valley Branch.

My best, Don Valentine


Re: RI 133510 from flour loading topic

mopacfirst
 

Thanks for the great, specific, reply.

I'll finish my 141000 that's got almost all the grabs and ladders attached, then wait for one of these.  Unrelated note -- I just finished a Sunshine 161000 40' double-door car, with decals from a Mask Island set that was 'close enough'.  I'm starting to perfect a technique for wood running boards on resin cars, of leaving the boards off when I paint the car, then brush-painting with mixtures of Tru-Color weathered and seasoned wood.  So far, so good, said the person who can't see some of those colors anyway.

Ron Merrick


Re: ATSF boxcar roof question

Dave Bayless
 

Not sure if this question is just within the time frame for this group, but if not just let me know. I have a picture of ATSF boxcar 275357 on page 30 of “Classic Freight Cars” the Series vol 7 “more 40’ boxcars”. The ends appear to be R+3/4, sides 12 panel welded with 6’ YSD dr with 5/5/4 configuration. But I tell exactly what the roof is and have not been able to find another photo of boxcars in this series. The roof appears to be either a flat paneled roof or possibly a DP roof. Does anyone know what this roof is or can you point me to another photo of cars in this series. I was thinking of kitbashing a model of this from the Accurail kit 1500 AAR 40’boxcar. Thanks for your help

Dave

 

 

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