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Re: P&WV gondolas

Charlie Tapper <chastap@...>
 

No, Byron, too many days out in the field in the hot, Great Basin sun.

Let's transpose geographic locales, western PA and eastern OH.

Charlie Tapper
On Sun, 23 Sep 2001 16:32:20 -0700 "Charlie Tapper" <chastap@elko.net>
writes:

> Anyway I have a real interest in equipment of railroads of western
> Ohio and eastern PA.

Hi Charlie,

Tis strange that you have no interest in the railroads making up the 500
miles between those two areas you mention. Tsk, tsk, tis a pity, there's
some neat stuff there, including all the railroads you mention.

Still have that west coast geography problem, I see.

Oh well,

BSR
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Re: PFE/WP Bettendorf Underframes

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Garth Groff writes:

The list is primarily 1950s cars, so they are a bit beyond the STMFC
manifesto.
Not so. The upper cut off for the time period is 1960.

> I will be glad to post it if you all are interested.

You might want to put it in the STMFC files.

Mike Brock
STMFC owner


Re: (?) USRA Color and Lettering Specifications

tim gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

Does anyone know whether the USRA specified what the color of cars built
during the 1918-1920 regime would be? Or was the choice of the color
left to either the car builder or assigned railroad?

Of particular interest are the colors of the 40' 6" IL composite gons -
a red oxide or a black?

Subsidiary to the color issue, were there any USRA specifications about
the application on new cars of the assigned railroads' logos (a.k.a.
emblems, heralds, et al.)?

Thanks in advance,

Tim Gilbert


Re: PFE/WP Bettendorf Underframes

Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...>
 

Tony and Al,

Thanks for your input. I figure out a way to word the entry to reflect
the facts on the ground, or lack of them. Too bad the shop records don't
say which cars had the Bettendorf underframes.

Tony, do you have any idea if some of these cars survived long enough to
be rebuilt in 1953, or were they all done in during the early 1950s
scrapping?

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff

thompson@signaturepress.com wrote:


Tony Thompson's PFE book asserts that there were up to 200 cars built
this way, apparently the first of the lot before the specs were changed.
Al Westerfield has favored us with a kit. Both these gentlemen are known
for their scholarship, but after 75 years, documentation can sometimes
be very, very fuzzy.
PFE's own shop records were the source of the 200 cars. But I have no
reason to think they were the FIRST cars.

Jim Eager thinks these cars are bogus and were actually built with the
"built-up" underframe to R-30-13 standards. He notes that the picture of
WRL 7001 in the PFE book does NOT have a Bettendorf underframe, as one
would expect of the first car in the class. Jim thinks these underframes
may have existed only on paper, which I will allow is a possibility. He
and others have said there is NO photographic evidence for these
underframes.
I don't know of any photographic evidence either, but would surely
hesitate to say that same PROVEs the absence. And I sure don't know how
PFE's own records could have made an error on this; those people surely
knew what a Bettendorf underframe was.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 http://www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroads and on Western history


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Re: PFE/WP Bettendorf Underframes

Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...>
 

Shawn,

The list is primarily 1950s cars, so they are a bit beyond the STMFC
manifesto. I will be glad to post it if you all are interested. It will
also go up as an adjunct to my SN web site, and perhaps just posting
that link to STMFC would be another possibility

Right now I'm getting corrections and new information from the other WP
guys, so it will be a few days before I'm ready with a revised list.

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff

"Beckert, Shawn" wrote:


Garth sez:

I have been preparing a list of accurate WP freight
cars over on the WP list.
Well sir, when you're done with it, how about letting
the rest of us have a peek at it?

Shawn Beckert, I don't have any cars with feathers on 'em


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Re: hotboxes

BillJewett@...
 

What exactly do you want to know?>>
What I'm really looking for is a realistic but practical way to include the
effects of hotboxes in model operations, if it would be significant, which I
think it would prior to the 1970s. How often might they occur, which trains
would be most likely, what kinds of cars, how should the crew respond, how
often would car be set out as opposed to repaired and taken along, how long
would this delay the train, how is setout dealt with subsequently, etc.

Bill
Operations SIG


Re: PFE/WP Bettendorf Underframes

thompson@...
 

Tony Thompson's PFE book asserts that there were up to 200 cars built
this way, apparently the first of the lot before the specs were changed.
Al Westerfield has favored us with a kit. Both these gentlemen are known
for their scholarship, but after 75 years, documentation can sometimes
be very, very fuzzy.
PFE's own shop records were the source of the 200 cars. But I have no
reason to think they were the FIRST cars.

Jim Eager thinks these cars are bogus and were actually built with the
"built-up" underframe to R-30-13 standards. He notes that the picture of
WRL 7001 in the PFE book does NOT have a Bettendorf underframe, as one
would expect of the first car in the class. Jim thinks these underframes
may have existed only on paper, which I will allow is a possibility. He
and others have said there is NO photographic evidence for these
underframes.
I don't know of any photographic evidence either, but would surely
hesitate to say that same PROVEs the absence. And I sure don't know how
PFE's own records could have made an error on this; those people surely
knew what a Bettendorf underframe was.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 http://www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroads and on Western history


Re: PFE/WP Bettendorf Underframes

Al & Patricia Westerfield <westerfield@...>
 

Garth - I relied on Tony for this. - Al

----- Original Message -----
From: "Garth G. Groff" <ggg9y@virginia.edu>
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2001 2:08 PM
Subject: [STMFC] PFE/WP Bettendorf Underframes


Dear friends,

A question for Tony Thompson and Al Westerfield (or anyone else who
knows):

I have been preparing a list of accurate WP freight cars over on the WP
list. I included Westerfield 6806, an R-20-12 clone with a Hutchins roof
as 50001-50200(?) (with a question mark, since there is some doubt about
how many reefers were built to this configuration).

Tony Thompson's PFE book asserts that there were up to 200 cars built
this way, apparently the first of the lot before the specs were changed.
Al Westerfield has favored us with a kit. Both these gentlemen are known
for their scholarship, but after 75 years, documentation can sometimes
be very, very fuzzy.

Jim Eager thinks these cars are bogus and were actually built with the
"built-up" underframe to R-30-13 standards. He notes that the picture of
WRL 7001 in the PFE book does NOT have a Bettendorf underframe, as one
would expect of the first car in the class. Jim thinks these underframes
may have existed only on paper, which I will allow is a possibility. He
and others have said there is NO photographic evidence for these
underframes.

Tony or Al, would you care to comment on this. In other words, HELP!

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff


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Re: PFE/WP Bettendorf Underframes

Shawn Beckert
 

Garth sez:

I have been preparing a list of accurate WP freight
cars over on the WP list.
Well sir, when you're done with it, how about letting
the rest of us have a peek at it?

Shawn Beckert, I don't have any cars with feathers on 'em


Re: hotboxes

CBarkan@...
 

Hotboxes were probably considered the leading safety problem of the 1950s and
early 1960s. I would think just perusing the index of Rwy Age would quiickly
turn up many articles. What exactly do you want to know?

In a message dated 9/23/1 2:58:08 PM, BillJewett@aol.com writes:

<< I'm looking for reference material on hotboxes during the 1940s-60s before
the general adoption of roller bearings. Frequency, causes, effects.
Possible sources: Railway Age, Modern Railroads, Armstrong "The Railroad"
(but may be mostly contemporary)? Would appreciate any leads, or better,
articles. Thanks,

Bill
Operations SIG
>>


PFE/WP Bettendorf Underframes

Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...>
 

Dear friends,

A question for Tony Thompson and Al Westerfield (or anyone else who
knows):

I have been preparing a list of accurate WP freight cars over on the WP
list. I included Westerfield 6806, an R-20-12 clone with a Hutchins roof
as 50001-50200(?) (with a question mark, since there is some doubt about
how many reefers were built to this configuration).

Tony Thompson's PFE book asserts that there were up to 200 cars built
this way, apparently the first of the lot before the specs were changed.
Al Westerfield has favored us with a kit. Both these gentlemen are known
for their scholarship, but after 75 years, documentation can sometimes
be very, very fuzzy.

Jim Eager thinks these cars are bogus and were actually built with the
"built-up" underframe to R-30-13 standards. He notes that the picture of
WRL 7001 in the PFE book does NOT have a Bettendorf underframe, as one
would expect of the first car in the class. Jim thinks these underframes
may have existed only on paper, which I will allow is a possibility. He
and others have said there is NO photographic evidence for these
underframes.

Tony or Al, would you care to comment on this. In other words, HELP!

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff


Re: P&WV gondolas

byronrose@...
 

On Sun, 23 Sep 2001 16:32:20 -0700 "Charlie Tapper" <chastap@elko.net>
writes:

Anyway I have a real interest in equipment of railroads of western
Ohio and eastern PA.
Hi Charlie,

Tis strange that you have no interest in the railroads making up the 500
miles between those two areas you mention. Tsk, tsk, tis a pity, there's
some neat stuff there, including all the railroads you mention.

Still have that west coast geography problem, I see.

Oh well,

BSR
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Re: Extraordinary times - railroad photography

byronrose@...
 

Having just spent twelve of the longest hours of my life the prisoner of
Amtrak, all I can say is "why bother?" I didn't see anything within 50'
of the train worthy of wasting a photograph on, even if a good one could
be had thru those wavy and dirty windows.

BSR, RPA

On Sat, 22 Sep 2001 08:15:24 EDT CBarkan@aol.com writes:
In a message dated 9/20/1 11:44:26 PM, timoconnor@mediaone.net
writes:

<< Only once was I ever asked to hand over my camera... I don't
like to argue, so I just beat a hasty retreat. Worked like a
charm.>>

Without elaborating, let me just say that RRs and government are
taking the
threat of attack on their facilities and equipment VERY SERIOUSLY.
"Beating
a hasty retreat" would be inadvisable in these extraordinary times.
The
nation's RRs are to freight transport what airlines are to passenger

transport, and you are all aware of the concerns there. I suggest
that a
better strategy would be to stand still with your hands visible and
offer to
surrender the camera.

Trespassing is always inadvisable, and now has a high likelihood of
resulting
in swift apprehension followed by lengthy and possibly ongoing
"disussion"
about one's intentions. Loss of the camera and film would be the
least of
your worries. Furthermore, distinctions about whether you were on
public
or private property at the time will be of little significance.

I suggest that the best general course of action now might be to
find a
railroad official (or perhaps a local police officer), explain who
you are,
what your interest is and ask their permission to take photos,
regardless of
whose property you are going to be on. This will immediately send
the
message that you are not trying to be secretive and that you do not
have
malintent. They may still say "No", in which case it would be
prudent to
respect their wishes, but they might say "Yes" in which case you
will have
someone who can vouch for you later if someone else stops you.

I don't offer any of this to advocate abridgement of our rights
(which I am a
fervent believer in), only as prudent advice about what the
consequences are
likely to be should you choose to exercise your rights at this time.

Although you may ultimately find that you were within your rights in
some
situation, the path to determining that could be time consuming,
expensive
and unpleasant.

I am sorry to be the bearer of this news but I would hate to see any
of our
extended family of freight car fans suffer negative consequences
while
pursuing the innocent objectives of their hobby.

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Re: Ordering form National Archives of Canada

Benjamin Hom <bhom3@...>
 

Larry Sexton noted regarding obtaining photos from the NAC:

Another problem is that some people have used Gay's listing and then bitched
to him that it didn't provide all the info they needed to order certain
photos. One particular individual, a member of the Freight Car list, left
such a bad memory with the staff at the NAC that there was talk of limiting
access to the files.


Boorish behavior from an individual on FCL ruining it for the rest of us? I'm shocked by the revelation! ;)


Ben Hom


Re: P&WV gondolas

Charlie Tapper <chastap@...>
 

Larry Kline wrote:

Charlie, Based on photos, I believe that the channel side all
steel gons were rebuilt from P&WV's 1926 PSC 8000-8399 steel > gons.
Great! I don't have a shot of the 8000-8399 gons. I thought (er...assumed) ALL gondolas in the 8000-8849 block were 9 panel USRA steel 40' gondolas, but that was based on one photograph I have.

How many panels, BTW, are the original 8000-8399 40' gondolas?The channel sides cars look to be about 16(?) panels(!), as is the rib-sided car shown on page 66 (see below). They sure seemed to be longer than 40', perhaps just an illusion because of so many narrow panels.

The other 40' cars, in the series 7500-7799 are 11 panel AAR 41' cars with improved dreadnaught ends.

Willard Harvey recently sent 8x10 prints of the photo at the top > of page 66 in _Railroads of the Ohio Valley - Book 1_, and a
second, similar photo. The channel-side and rib-side gons in
these photos appear to be the same cars before and after
rebuilding with channel side stakes.
Well that sure beats squinting at the print in the book like I have been doing<LOL>! I've tried to read the numbers from that picture in the book before. I guess the answer is also in the ORER, since 5000-5499 46' gondolas are still listed as "gondola, drop end, composite" in all 50's listings.

IF so, then this makes getting the NAC photograph more useful, since it will show a car that probably didn't get extensively rebuilt.

I'm still in the dark on the 50' boxcars and the 65' gondolas.

Anyway I have a real interest in equipment of railroads of western Ohio and eastern PA. Finding pics or info on equipment from some of the more obscure lines like Union, W&LE, and P&WV can be an exercise in frustration. And I am a newcomer to research, so everybody's input is appreciated.

Charlie Tapper


Re: Ordering form National Archives of Canada

Charlie Tapper <chastap@...>
 

----- Original Message -----
It seems odd that you would have seen this photo published somewhere, and
that it doesn't have a PA number. Gay Lepkey has spent some time trolling
through the PA file numbers to unearth the copy negs that he hasn't been
told about, but obviously he hasn't seen this one.
Ian:

The Lake Terminal gondola shot attribution was my mistake, it is indeed from another collection, but since the article I was looking at had virtually all the other car pictures from the NAC collection, I spaced it out. The Lake Terminal shot I am thinking of was from a "John LaRue Jr., Collection". My error.

Charlie Tapper


Re: Ordering form National Archives of Canada

dixierails <dixierails@...>
 

This is in response to the question as to whether anyone will be updating
the Gay Lepkey list that most of us use to locate photos in the NAC. I
talked with Gay the first of the year and he indicated he does have a
substantial amount of data to update the list. The problem is that Gay began
the list, and continues to update the list, as a volunteer. All he's ever
requested is that those of us who order photos provide him with the PA
numbers the NAC assigns to them when they process an order. A number of
people have used the list and never provided any feedback to Gay, and only a
few of us that have taken the time to let Gay know how much his efforts are
appreciated. Like a lot of us, he works a job necessary to provide for his
family so it leaves little time to update a list that doesn't appear to be
appreciated. I know that I have ordered photos that have unlisted PA numbers
which indicate others ordered them months, or years earlier. Gay and I have
discussed this on a number of occasions and concluded that a number of those
people interested in rail photos are just users that believe information is
to be hoarded and not to be shared unless one can profit by it.

Another problem is that some people have used Gay's listing and then bitched
to him that it didn't provide all the info they needed to order certain
photos. One particular individual, a member of the Freight Car list, left
such a bad memory with the staff at the NAC that there was talk of limiting
access to the files. That memory seems to have faded somewhat, as the staff
were very responsive to my most recent requests. It's an excellant
collection and the source of a number of photos that have disappeared into
US musem collections, or are now too costly to purchase this side of the
border.
Larry Sexton

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dana and Larry Kline" <klinelarrydanajon@worldnet.att.net>
To: "STMFC" <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Cc: "Charlie Tapper" <chastap@elko.net>
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2001 9:55 AM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Ordering form National Archives of Canada


Charlie Tapper wrote
<<I just followed up the link to the list of photos from the National
Archives of Canada collection. I saw a few cars I'd really like to get
photos of (especially P&WV 5299, one of the enigmatic composite gondolas
ostensibly rebuilt as channel-side all-steel cars). Anybody have any tips
or
experience ordering from the NAC?>>

The NAC web site at http://www.archives.ca/02/020206/02020601_e.html has
ordering information. I placed the order below by mail on 11/14/00 and got
good quality prints in 6 or 8 weeks. I sent a credit card number with my
order. I didn't use their form.
----------------------------------------------------------------
National Archives of Canada
395 Wellington Street
Ottawa, Ontario K1A 0N3
CANADA

Please send 5x7 glossy prints, on resin-coated paper, with reproduction
cropping, of the following photos:

PA 188066 - P&WV Hopper car no 3067
PA 188129 - P&WV Gondola car no 5299
PA 196044 - P&WV Covered hopper car no 5129
PA 203142 - P&WV Gondola car no 8400
----------------------------------------------------------------
PA 203141 - P&WV caboose 804
isthe only other P&WV photo on the Lepkey list at:
http://www.ncf.carleton.ca/~bn459/index.html .

Does anyone know if there are plans to update the Lepkey list ? It
apparently was last updated in Oct, 2000.

Charlie, Based on photos, I believe that the channel side all steel gons
were rebuilt from P&WV's 1926 PSC 8000-8399 steel gons. Willard Harvey
recently sent 8x10 prints of the photo at the top of page 66 in _Railroads
of the Ohio Valley - Book 1_, and a second, similar photo. The
channel-side
and rib-side gons in these photos appear to be the same cars before and
after rebuilding with channel side stakes.

Larry Kline
Pittsburgh, PA








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hotboxes

BillJewett@...
 

I'm looking for reference material on hotboxes during the 1940s-60s before
the general adoption of roller bearings. Frequency, causes, effects.
Possible sources: Railway Age, Modern Railroads, Armstrong "The Railroad"
(but may be mostly contemporary)? Would appreciate any leads, or better,
articles. Thanks,

Bill
Operations SIG


Re: Ordering form National Archives of Canada

Ian Cranstone
 

From: "Charlie Tapper" <chastap@elko.net>
I was going to start with cataloged photographs, the PA series. But this
anticipates my next question. I have seen published pictures from
NAC/Merrilees Collection that would be of interest to me (for example a Lake
Terminal 50' gondola in service) that are not on the list.
Gay Lepkey has a more extensive list of photos (which he has not put on the
web), and I do see an unnumbered Lake Terminal composite gondola photo
listed. The location info is:

Merrilees -- collection 1980-149; series D, box 6790, file 4

Now all you need is someone to take the time to order this box, dig out the
photo and write up the photo order (and of course cross the NAC's palm with
silver).

It seems odd that you would have seen this photo published somewhere, and
that it doesn't have a PA number. Gay Lepkey has spent some time trolling
through the PA file numbers to unearth the copy negs that he hasn't been
told about, but obviously he hasn't seen this one.

--
Ian Cranstone
Kanata, Ontario, Canada
lamontc@nakina.net (note change: was lamontc@magi.com)


Re: Ordering form National Archives of Canada

Charlie Tapper <chastap@...>
 

I was going to start with cataloged photographs, the PA series. But this anticipates my next question. I have seen published pictures from NAC/Merrilees Collection that would be of interest to me (for example a Lake Terminal 50' gondola in service) that are not on the list.

Well, I'll have to put it off since a trip to Ottawa to get pictures of freight cars is rather low on the priority list these days.

Thanks,

Charlie Tapper
One key piece of info that I think they will need is the "P" number (I think
that is right). And as I recall, if a photo has not previously been copied,
it may not yet have a P number. But if it is in their catalogue then it
probably has and does. But there are thousands of undocumented photos in the
Merrilees Collection. The only way to find out about them is to visit Ottawa
and search by hand. They have highly regimented procedures for this.

Chris

184241 - 184260 of 187213