Date   

Re: Bowser X31/X32

Benjamin Hom <bhom3@...>
 

Bill Daniels lamented:

Since I can't understand why Bowser (of ALL people) screwed up the paint job
on these...

and Tim O'Connor hit the nail on the head by answering:

Simple answer: Mr. English simply doesn't care. He regularly screws up paint
& lettering on many of his models.


To add to Tim's excellent point, there are two problems with the PRR paint
and lettering on Bowser's X31/X32 series kits:

1. This one depends on the eye of the beholder. Early runs of these kits
(as well as the Class H21/H22 quads and Class GS gons) were painted in a
very brown shade of freight car color. This one is subjective due to the
fact that the top two questions guaranteed to start a fist fight among
Pennsy modelers are a) "What color is freight car color?" and b) "What color
is Dark Green Locomotive Enamel ("Brunswick Green")?". All opinions aside,
a look at Pennsy color pictures taken in the 1940s and 50s (my favorite
source - Don Ball's book) show freight car color tends towards orange. To
give Lee English some credit, later runs of the X31 and X32 kits, as well
as the current run of the X33 and X31f kits are painted in a freight car
color closer to the historical record.

2. This one is just flat out wrong. The "PENNSYLVANIA" reporting marks on
all runs of Circle Keystone (CK) scheme Class X31 kits, including the new
run of X31f's, are in the incorrect font and size. This particular mistake
is inexcusable because a) the manufacturer consistently makes this mistake;
b) the CK reporting marks are correct on the 50 ft X32 and X33 kits, and c)
you live in Pennsylvania, for God's sake!


Tim added:

I am currently partial to the C-D-S lettering set for these cars...I just
wish they would expand their PRR offerings to cover all the cars that Bowser
is doing!
Have you tried Middle Division decals?

The Middle Division decals are excellent and will fill all of your needs for
Pennsy boxcar lettering - each set will letter at least two cars and many
more in combination with set HNM-5 (which gives you tons of extra road
names) and extra CK's from Champ. Useful sets for the Class X31 family:

HNM-3: "Pennsylvania", Calendar and Transition numerals, SK1a and SK1b
schemes.

HNM-5: "Pennsylvania", Numerals, Slogans (Automobile, Buy War Bonds), CK era

HBX-6: Class X25, X26, X28, X29, X31 40 ft Steel Boxcars, CK era

HBX-8: Class X31, X31a, X31b, X31c, and X31f, Shadow Keystone


Now for the bad news - availability is rather spotty. Mitchell's in
Delaware has a good stock, and I believe the Train Shop in Santa Clara, CA
has some as well (I can check for anyone who needs them - contact me off
list). If anyone has knowledge of a good address for Middle Division and if
they still sell decals direct, I'd appreciate the info.


Ben Hom


Re: Resin

billd@...
 

On Fri, 1 Jun 2001 11:58:05 -0400
"Tim O'Connor" <timoconnor@mediaone.net> wrote:

They're MINE MINE ALL MINE!!! Keepa you hands off!!! I
deserve to get
Sunshine and Westerfield kits for 10 bucks!! ;o)
So they can pile up in your closet until somebody else sells
them off after you are gone (just like the batch I have in
MY closet! :-)

Bill Daniels


Is this a model of a 70-ton plain bearing freight car truck?

Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
 


Re: CGW PS-0 cars

Clark Propst <cepropst@...>
 

Tim,
I have a couple of slides of a 91000 series rusty hulk that sat at
Oelwein for years. I've been told it was moved to the Boone and Scenic
Valley RR at Boone IA.
Stan's 5/5 ends are for the 50' cars. Stan had an article on these
cars in March (I think) RMJ. There are pictures of real cars in the
article.
Clark

Tim O'Connor wrote:

At 07:12 PM 5/31/01 -0500, you wrote:

The Great Western liked Pullman-Standard alot. They bought 50 true
PS-0's numbered 90000-90049.
Yes, I missed the reporting marks although I included them in the
total
number of 751 PS-0's. They were from Lot 5584.

[CGW] also purchased ... cars in the 91000-91099 and 92000-92149
series.
These cars were basically 1937 cars with Pullman ends (put Stan's
ends
on a IM car).
Do you know of any photos of one of these? I knew about these from the

ORER but I've never seen a photo.

The CGW also had 50' DD box cars with the Pullman end ...
52000-52199.

See Mainline Modeler Feb 1988, and Trainshed Cyclopedia #17 (or the
1943
Car Builder's Cyclopedia). Both contain a photo of CGW #52183. These
cars
were 10'5" IH so you'd have to bash your own end -- a "PS-0" end is
too
short.

Timothy O'Connor <timoconnor@mediaone.net>
Marlborough, Massachusetts


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Re: [WPlist] PS-2 use, GN stock cars

Richard Hendrickson
 

Garth Groff wrote:

Richard,

Thanks much for your help. This gives me a pretty good idea GN and NP
cars might have been found around Sacramento, though my era is 10 years
later than your data. Livestock was still a significant part of the
WP/SN traffic mix in 1957.

Now I wonder if any of those Mather patent cars I bought are
appropriate.
Both GN and NP still rostered leased Mather cars as late as 10/58, and CB&Q
also had them by that time. You can also use some of Jack Parker's flat
molded NP stock cars and, of course, the new Accurail cars. And Al
Westerfield's resin kits for Milwaukee stock cars would be appropriate, as
well. Get busy!

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


Re: UTLX Car Classifications

Shawn Beckert
 

Tony Thompson wrote:

...Now about that ZXO class. This might be a car of
Type I or Type II (if there were no X-1 or X-2 cars),
or it may come from another ICC classification such
as 103-A or something else. Is the dome a normal size
and shape of dome, Shawn? Can you see what kind of
outlet it has on the center sill?
UTLX 77251 looks like an average ICC-103 in every way,
although it has a VERY heavy center sill, which tells
me it's an older car. The dome looks to be normal size.

I can't see the bottom outlet for two reasons. A) The
photo is a very tight wedge shot, so the trucks are
blocking my view, and B)There's a pipe hooked up to the
bottom outlet anyway, running out of view.

This photo shows the 77251 at the end of a cut of cars
being steam cleaned, the first picture I've seen that
depicts such an operation. Interesting procedure; there's
a large diameter flexible hose stuffed down the manway, a
6" pipe connected to the outlet (obviously to carry off
the sludge) and clouds of steam over everything.

Shawn Beckert


Re: [WPlist] PS-2 use, GN stock cars

Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...>
 

Richard,

Thanks much for your help. This gives me a pretty good idea GN and NP
cars might have been found around Sacramento, though my era is 10 years
later than your data. Livestock was still a significant part of the
WP/SN traffic mix in 1957.

Now I wonder if any of those Mather patent cars I bought are
appropriate.

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff


Richard Hendrickson wrote:


Dave Nelson wrote, in response to Garth's query about stock traffic on the
WP highline:

Garth, I don't know about the highline traffic, but I do know something
about stock movements into California for 1950 -- here are some numbers from
the 1% waybill reports sent to the ICC. If you assume the sample is a good
one, the actual car counts are then 100X of reported.

Montana 51
Texas 46
Idaho 40
Utah 34
Arizona 29
Colorado 21
New Mexico 20
Cal 19
Oregon 19

I would assume the cows from MT got here in GN/NP cars, and perhaps some of
the ID and OR ones too. How they got here is a mystery to me.
Sorry to be rather tardy responding on this subject, but I have the freight
car interchange book for Beiber, CA (where the WP high line met the GN line
from Oregon) for the last half of 1947, and numerous stock cars were
interchanged at that time: GN, NP, MILW, plus occasional CB&Q, C&NW, etc.
Some of this traffic probably went to the Bay Area via WP; much of it was
bound for the stock yards in Los Angeles via WP to Stockton and ATSF over
Techachapi to Barstow and over Cajon to So. Calif. There are also photos
from the 1950s of stock cars from the NW RRs in ATSF Valley Division
trains, and it's likely that many of them came and went via the WP
highline. The volume of this traffic wasn't on the same order of magnitude
as the Santa Fe traffic into So. Calif. from the east or the UP DLS service
from Utah, but it appears to have been substantial.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520

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Re: UTLX Car Classifications

thompson@...
 

Shawn Beckert asked:
The 77251 looks like an ordinary ICC-103 tank car
to me, so what on earth is a "ZXO" class? The two
X-5's are both pressure cars, so can I assume that
all the UTLX X-5's were basically ICC-105's? Last
but not least: Other than the well known X-3's, what
other classes were running around out there? We've
not accounted for X-1's, X-2's or X-4's. Did they
ever exist? Lend me your thoughts, gentlemen.
I'm intrigued that the ICC-103 tank was an X-3 and the (possible) 105 was
an X-5. That might mean that these classifications were based on the ICC
classes (remember that the ICC classes were essentially tank ratings and
said nothing about the underframe or general appearance). That would mean
there would only be X-4's if UTLX owned ICC 104 cars. Whether they would
have classified the ARA Type I and Type II cars (preceding Type III which
became 103) as X-1 and X-2, I don't know.
Now about that ZX0 class. This might be a car of Type I or II (if there
were no X-1 or X-2 cars), or it may come from another ICC classification
such as 103-A or something else. Is the dome a normal size and shape of
dome, Shawn? Can you see what kind of outlet it has on the center sill?

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 http://www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroads and on Western history


Re: Bowser cars, was Re:Proto 2000 freight cars

Atsfmodelr@...
 

Don't use an air eraser it destroyed the car I did.

Bill Vaughn


Re: Pullman ends on SAL boxcars

Richard Hendrickson
 

Garth Groff wrote:

John,

Your idea about price is probably important. But price is also tied into
scale of production. You know, cranking out 50,000 widgets drops the
price way down compared to 500. Probably the war had a lot to do with
canning Pullman's plans. Richard Hendrickson knows this history better
than I, but IIRC, but wasn't freight car construction pretty much
stopped completely in 1943, with only "war emergency" designs allowed in
most cases? When sheet steel was removed from the critical materials
list sometime around late 1944, there was a flood of pent-up orders.
Still, this wasn't the time for launching new designs.

Richard, can you help us on this one?
I claim no expertise with regard to Pullman-Standard's history, but it is
certainly the case that the War Production Board banned the introduction of
any new designs or tooling after the war started. Improved Dreadnaught
ends and ASF A-3 "Ride Control" trucks were among the freight car
specialties that were ready to go into production in late 1941/early '42
but were not introduced until 1944. It's my impression that the same thing
happened to the PS-1, which was delayed until mid-1947 both by the
overwhelming postwar demand for new freight cars and by the complexities of
converting P-S production to a new design built with new technology.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


Re: Resin

Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
 

Tom Madden wrote

One other concern - I don't usually bid against my friends, but some of you
have bid on many, many of these lots. (I'm hard-pressed to find _any_ of the
lots that Jon, Tim, Ted or Dave hasn't bid on!) So, my apologies in advance,
but I'll be going after three or four of the lots without regard to who else
has bid on them.
They're MINE MINE ALL MINE!!! Keepa you hands off!!! I deserve to get
Sunshine and Westerfield kits for 10 bucks!! ;o)

Seriously, I don't mind overbids. (Heck, I have a friend at the North Shore club
who often SNIPES me!) There are only a few auctions I saw where I could use
ALL of the kits in the lot, and am very likely to order them from Sunshine or Al
anyway if I don't win the auction.


Re: Resin

tgmadden <tgmadden@...>
 

Bruce Smith wrote:
I don't know 'bout the rest of you, but I've found the listings a little
frustrating since the seller seems to have no clue about search engines, or
era

I've been searching titles for "model train kit", which fetches 130
listings, all of them the Gronsky stuff. What frustrates me is the seller
has 34 _pages_ of eBay listings, at 25 items per page, so looking through
all the seller's listings to see if there's anything else isn't practical.

One other concern - I don't usually bid against my friends, but some of you
have bid on many, many of these lots. (I'm hard-pressed to find _any_ of the
lots that Jon, Tim, Ted or Dave hasn't bid on!) So, my apologies in advance,
but I'll be going after three or four of the lots without regard to who else
has bid on them.

The seller is located on West Chester, PA, which is only about 15 miles from
Mitchells.

Tom M.


Re: Pullman ends on SAL boxcars

Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...>
 

John,

Your idea about price is probably important. But price is also tied into
scale of production. You know, cranking out 50,000 widgets drops the
price way down compared to 500. Probably the war had a lot to do with
canning Pullman's plans. Richard Hendrickson knows this history better
than I, but IIRC, but wasn't freight car construction pretty much
stopped completely in 1943, with only "war emergency" designs allowed in
most cases? When sheet steel was removed from the critical materials
list sometime around late 1944, there was a flood of pent-up orders.
Still, this wasn't the time for launching new designs.

Richard, can you help us on this one?

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff


John Nehrich wrote:


Garth - One thing we modelers never really look at is price. Maybe Standard
Railway Equip. Co offer their Dreadnaught ends cheaper. But also, the
claimed advantage of the Dreadnaught was the tucks or darts on each corner
that took up material, so that if damaged, could be bent back into position.
Pullman never even advertised any of their ends (PS-Zero, PS-1), that I can
see, at least until well into the post-steam era, although they did
advertised the ends as part of the package deal of the PS-1.
Also, I think it was Mainline who showed plans c. 1940 for the PS-1. It
appears that based on the experience of the PS-Zero in just a couple of
years, Pullman was already to go ahead with the PS-1, when the war
intervened. And didn't the War Board forbid new designs over tested ones?


Re: Resin

Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. <smithbf@...>
 

Byron sez:
Sounds like Gronski to me. I met him at Mitchells about 4-5 years ago,
when I first brought out my war emergency flat car kit. He bought overt
a dozen during the next year or two. If any of them show up on the
auction, it will confirm it because he's the only person who bought them
in quantity.
Yep, 'bout a dozen went on the list yesterday.

I don't know 'bout the rest of you, but I've found the listings a little
frustrating since the seller seems to have no clue about search engines, or
era

Happy Rails
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.
Scott-Ritchey Research Center
334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin
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Re: Resin

byronrose@...
 

On Fri, 01 Jun 2001 03:36:22 -0000 ted_culotta@yahoo.com writes:

I don't know. Robert Gronski is a new name to me. The price tags
on
many of these kits say The Train Shop for the Sunshines and
Mitchell's for the Westerfields.

If Robert Gronski lived out here, it's too bad these kits weren't
auctioned at the local PCR NMRA meet. Then Jon, Dave and I could
have cleaned up!!

Ted
Sounds like Gronski to me. I met him at Mitchells about 4-5 years ago,
when I first brought out my war emergency flat car kit. He bought overt
a dozen during the next year or two. If any of them show up on the
auction, it will confirm it because he's the only person who bought them
in quantity. I also believe he was the person building Als kits for
Mitchells. They showed up pretty heavily in Mitchells ads and may still
do so. The built-up models I saw in their store looked pretty darn good.
(I guess anything painted and lettered looks better than the rows of
grey cars on my shelves.)

At the time I met him he looked like death warmed over, so this whole
episode doesn't surprise me.

I also believe he lived in the DC area. If anyone needs to know, I could
look it up, but it definately wasn't west coast.

Byron

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Re: Resin

Dave & Libby Nelson <muskoka@...>
 

-----Original Message-----
If Robert Gronski lived out here, it's too bad these kits weren't
auctioned at the local PCR NMRA meet. Then Jon, Dave and I could
have cleaned up!!
And cleaned us out too!

Lordy, I remember my first PCR auction about 10 years ago -- it was the
estate of the guy who used to run the auctions. Item #1, brass SP AC-12, no
tarish, closed for $300. There were a half dozen of those that day and as I
recall 50 other brass locomotives and nearly 100 brass passenger cars. Got
a can motored SP C-11 for $125. Course now w/ ebay all one sees there is
mantua....

Dave Nelson


Re: Resin

Dave & Libby Nelson <muskoka@...>
 

-----Original Message-----
From: westerfield [mailto:westerfield@multipro.com]
I don't know. Robert Gronski is a new name to me. The price tags on
many of these kits say The Train Shop for the Sunshines and
Mitchell's for the Westerfields.
Gronski was (is) the man who placed all the built up Westerfield kits at
Mitchell's. He lived in PA and ordered from us monthly, calling just as
frequently. He would normally order about 15 cars a month but we have not
heard from him since last October. - Al Westerfield
Al, I checked the online Social Security death index. Gronski is not a very
common surname. One R. Gronski passed away on 1 Dec 2000. No recent benefit
address but the SSN was issued to a PA. resident. He was about 62.

Dave Nelson


Re: Mainline Cover Photo

Bill Kelly
 

Bill,
Sounds like you have a photo of the EP&SW cars, I have heard of one in
_Locomotive Quarterly_ several years back. Are there others out there?

Bill Kelly

Bill Daniels wrote:
snip<
...and noticed that the doors appear to have
three hinges on each side, which was the
PFE standard, and not the ex-EP&SW cars
(which had 4 hinges on each side).
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Re: [WPlist] PS-2 use, GN stock cars

Richard Hendrickson
 

Dave Nelson wrote, in response to Garth's query about stock traffic on the
WP highline:

Garth, I don't know about the highline traffic, but I do know something
about stock movements into California for 1950 -- here are some numbers from
the 1% waybill reports sent to the ICC. If you assume the sample is a good
one, the actual car counts are then 100X of reported.

Montana 51
Texas 46
Idaho 40
Utah 34
Arizona 29
Colorado 21
New Mexico 20
Cal 19
Oregon 19

I would assume the cows from MT got here in GN/NP cars, and perhaps some of
the ID and OR ones too. How they got here is a mystery to me.
Sorry to be rather tardy responding on this subject, but I have the freight
car interchange book for Beiber, CA (where the WP high line met the GN line
from Oregon) for the last half of 1947, and numerous stock cars were
interchanged at that time: GN, NP, MILW, plus occasional CB&Q, C&NW, etc.
Some of this traffic probably went to the Bay Area via WP; much of it was
bound for the stock yards in Los Angeles via WP to Stockton and ATSF over
Techachapi to Barstow and over Cajon to So. Calif. There are also photos
from the 1950s of stock cars from the NW RRs in ATSF Valley Division
trains, and it's likely that many of them came and went via the WP
highline. The volume of this traffic wasn't on the same order of magnitude
as the Santa Fe traffic into So. Calif. from the east or the UP DLS service
from Utah, but it appears to have been substantial.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


Re: Resin

Jon Miller <atsf@...>
 

Just to find out who's estate this is I have asked the seller of these
kits. He seems to be good about answering questions.

Jon Miller
AT&SF
For me time has stopped in 1941
Digitrax DCC owner, Chief system
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS

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