Date   

Another Postwar Boxcar

Richard Remiarz
 

I have continued with my efforts building and detailing plastic freight car kits.  NYC 165138 is a Branchline AAR Postwar boxcar kit.  I remember when these kits first came out. The detailing was so good that I built them stock and added them to the layout, trying to build up a large enough freight car roster for operations.  With now 400+ freight cars now operating on the layout, I can spend some additional time on freight cars, adding appropriate details to better match the prototype.

NYC 165138 represents a Lot 763-B car built in April 1946.  To better match the prototype I added poling pockets and roping rings (DA 6214). I used DA coupler cut bars, Kadee#158 scale couplers and 2003 roof walk, IM 0.088 wheelsets, and HiTech Details 6040 air hoses and brackets.  The Klasing brake wheel and brake housing are from Resin Car Works, via Shapeways.  

Weathering was done using Pan Pastel Red Iron Oxide Extra Dark, Neutral Grey Shade, and Black, and Polly Scale Rust paint.  Chalk marks and repack data is Sunshine Models decals.  The reweigh data is from Speedwitch D107 NYC 40' Boxcars.

Sincerely,
Rich Remiarz
Vadnais Heights, MN


Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Weathered NKP gondolas

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Doug;

 

I agree with Eric. The only things they would NOT usually haul were hot slabs and coils!

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Eric Hansmann
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2020 12:03 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Weathered NKP gondolas

 

Thanks, Doug!

 

To answer your question, gondolas could haul anything that fits. A few images of these NKP gondolas show them with aggregate loads, possibly gravel or sand. But they could haul steel plate and steel shapes that were less than 40-feet in length. Crated or tarp-covered loads from manufacturers are another possibility. Rough cut lumber is another option.

 

These cars could wander, too. They were not restricted to NKP rails.

 

 

Eric Hansmann

Murfreesboro, TN

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Doug Polinder via groups.io
Sent: Monday, November 16, 2020 11:14 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Weathered NKP gondolas

 

Those are fabulous, Eric.  The only things I know about NKP are from Emery Gulash's 1960s video footage and Tony Koester's articles on his own layout.  What might these have hauled?  

Doug Polinder
Lowell MI and Poquoson VA


Re: Early 20th Century Freight Cars Photograph

Steve Wolcott
 

And another boxcar with a door problem in this photo.
Steve Wolcott


Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Pool Service into California

Douglas Harding
 

Attached are some photos of boxcars cars in tire service. Based on the way they are stacked in the car, I would say any boxcar was suitable.

 

Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2020 8:43 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Pool Service into California

 

Garth;

 

I agree that there would have been pools of cars doing this, but I have not found dedicated cars by the PRR that did this.  The dedicated cars mostly had racks, so had to be in dedicated service or the racks would get ripped out (PRR has much angry correspondence on this).  So, I think tire shipments were more a flexible pool that the RRs drew from, since those cars could be used for anything.

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Garth Groff and Sally Sanford
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2020 5:23 AM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Pool Service into California

 

Jim,

 

Auto makers were voracious buyers of tires, and I expect there were pools between major tire makers and auto plants. They needed reliable on-time deliveries, to keep production running. It would be interesting to have others comment on this. I just spent half-an-hour searching the web for this and found nothing, which is typical of the web.

 

Yours Aye,

 

 

Garth Groff  🦆 

 

On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 11:32 PM Jim Gates via groups.io <jim.gates=ymail.com@groups.io> wrote:

I believe tires used to come individually wrapped. And they are certainly not as prone to damage as most car parts. I would think that any reasonably clean boxcar would be suitable for tires.

Jim Gates

On Monday, November 16, 2020, 02:49:43 PM CST, Garth Groff and Sally Sanford <mallardlodge1000@...> wrote:

 

 

Elden,

 

I second your comments on the complexity of pools. And when it comes to sub-assemblies, one also should consider that some parts were made by contractors. For instance, American Metal Products supplied seat frames and springs to a number of manufacturers. We usually think only of the Big Three manufacturers today, but Willys/Kaiser/Henry J/Frazier/Allstate, Hudson, Packard, Studebaker, Nash and others were still in the game into the 1950s, and these smaller marques likely used many more sourced products than Ford, GM or Chrysler. And remember, every car made in the US came with five tires, and AFAIK, none of auto manufacturers were making their own tires (though Ford had tried). There must also have been pools from the tire manufacturers to auto assembly plants.

 

Yours Aye,

 

 

Garth Groff

 

On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 11:03 AM Gatwood, Elden J SAD <elden.j.gatwood@...> wrote:

Fred;

 

Unfortunately, not yet.  I know a guy that has been working on this for 30+ years with the intention of doing a book(s), but he is overwhelmed with data. 

 

Every RR did their own version of how they handled it, and I am personally overwhelmed with just the PRR part of this, in the moment.

 

In addition, the pools changed almost yearly, with new models, changed models, and the whims of the auto makers.  I can attest to the numerous code changes, stencil changes, rack changes, and classes in use, from what I’ve dug up.

 

For your edification, you may want to look up the various auto and parts plants on-line, to see the enormous number of same in play over the years.

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>On Behalf Of Fred Swanson via groups.io
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2020 10:41 PM
To:
main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Pool Service into California

 

Many cars serving the auto industry were in pool service.  Are there listings or other information on what lines to and from where, when?
Fred Swanson


Photo: Cities Service Oil Tank Car 1002 (Undated)

Bob Chaparro
 

Photo: Cities Service Oil Tank Car 1002 (Undated)

A photo from the National Archives of Canada:

https://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/CollectionSearch/Pages/record.aspx?app=FonAndCol&IdNumber=3603414

This photo can be enlarged quite a bit.

Car built 1919.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Re: Car ID just for fun

Eric Hansmann
 

Thanks for those details, Bill!

 

 

Eric Hansmann

Murfreesboro, TN

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bill McClure
Sent: Monday, November 16, 2020 1:01 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Car ID just for fun

 

Eric, 

 

The C&O 82000-82999 series double door auto boxes were built 1924-25 by Illinois Car, and the 83000-83999 in 1924 by Pullman Car. The latter series was originally Hocking Valley cars.

 

The source material comes from the excellent Chesapeake & Ohio Freight Cars 1937-46, Shaver, Kresse and Parker, published by the C&O Historical Society, last reprinted 2104, pages 140-141.

 

In 1941-42 1184 cars were rebuilt with steel sheathing and various door configurations, and renumbered into the 12k and 13k series. In 1954 three cars had their roofs removed for coke service. I have never seen a photo of one of these.

 

Bill


Re: Weathered NKP gondolas

Eric Hansmann
 

Thanks, Doug!

 

To answer your question, gondolas could haul anything that fits. A few images of these NKP gondolas show them with aggregate loads, possibly gravel or sand. But they could haul steel plate and steel shapes that were less than 40-feet in length. Crated or tarp-covered loads from manufacturers are another possibility. Rough cut lumber is another option.

 

These cars could wander, too. They were not restricted to NKP rails.

 

 

Eric Hansmann

Murfreesboro, TN

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Doug Polinder via groups.io
Sent: Monday, November 16, 2020 11:14 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Weathered NKP gondolas

 

Those are fabulous, Eric.  The only things I know about NKP are from Emery Gulash's 1960s video footage and Tony Koester's articles on his own layout.  What might these have hauled?  

Doug Polinder
Lowell MI and Poquoson VA


Re: Ann Arbor Hutchins End (was FW&D 7231 Accurail kitbash)

Robert kirkham
 

Let me know the dimensions and it might be do-able.  

BTW, a typo crept in below: the Accurail kit the ends currently match is the 4300 series single sheathed cars.  The 7200 car series is the Ann Arbor prototype.

Rob

On Nov 17, 2020, at 5:35 AM, Eric Hansmann <eric@...> wrote:

Aren’t the double sheathed cars slightly wider at the car ends?
 
 
Eric Hansmann
Murfreesboro, TN
 
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Fritz Milhaupt via groups.io
Sent: Monday, November 16, 2020 9:30 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Ann Arbor Hutchins End (was FW&D 7231 Accurail kitbash)
 

If the 7200-series Accurail car this is designed to fit has a 9'2" IH, then a Pere Marquette 86000-series double-sheathed boxcar becomes a reasonable project, using these ends, a Hutchins roof and home-built sides.

-Fritz Milhaupt 



Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Was there ever a clinic on Delano-based paint and weathering?

Daniel A. Mitchell
 

This is actually quite simple … Do you want an accurate model, or one that LOOKS like an accurate model? You cannot have BOTH!

Dan Mitchell
==========

On Nov 17, 2020, at 9:38 AM, Brian Stokes <bstokesndp@...> wrote:

Dave, 

This is a great description. Another facet we most often overlook is how colour changes with scale. The military modellers (aircraft in particular) seem to understand this and lighten the colour as the scale shrinks. 

Brian

--
Brian Stokes
North Point Street in Proto:48


Re: Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated)

Thomas Klosterman
 

Is that a clock on the upper right of the object being carried?


Re: Early 20th Century Freight Cars Photograph

Claus Schlund \(HGM\)
 


Hi Jim and List members,
 
Thanks again Jim for the great image. Here are some enlargements of areas I found interesting...
 
We have discussed in the past that large paper or cloth billboards or posters were typically not allowed on cars in service. Apparently this did not apply back when this photo was taken...
 
Claus Schlund


Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Pool Service into California

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Garth;

 

I agree that there would have been pools of cars doing this, but I have not found dedicated cars by the PRR that did this.  The dedicated cars mostly had racks, so had to be in dedicated service or the racks would get ripped out (PRR has much angry correspondence on this).  So, I think tire shipments were more a flexible pool that the RRs drew from, since those cars could be used for anything.

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Garth Groff and Sally Sanford
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2020 5:23 AM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Pool Service into California

 

Jim,

 

Auto makers were voracious buyers of tires, and I expect there were pools between major tire makers and auto plants. They needed reliable on-time deliveries, to keep production running. It would be interesting to have others comment on this. I just spent half-an-hour searching the web for this and found nothing, which is typical of the web.

 

Yours Aye,

 

 

Garth Groff  🦆 

 

On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 11:32 PM Jim Gates via groups.io <jim.gates=ymail.com@groups.io> wrote:

I believe tires used to come individually wrapped. And they are certainly not as prone to damage as most car parts. I would think that any reasonably clean boxcar would be suitable for tires.

Jim Gates

On Monday, November 16, 2020, 02:49:43 PM CST, Garth Groff and Sally Sanford <mallardlodge1000@...> wrote:

 

 

Elden,

 

I second your comments on the complexity of pools. And when it comes to sub-assemblies, one also should consider that some parts were made by contractors. For instance, American Metal Products supplied seat frames and springs to a number of manufacturers. We usually think only of the Big Three manufacturers today, but Willys/Kaiser/Henry J/Frazier/Allstate, Hudson, Packard, Studebaker, Nash and others were still in the game into the 1950s, and these smaller marques likely used many more sourced products than Ford, GM or Chrysler. And remember, every car made in the US came with five tires, and AFAIK, none of auto manufacturers were making their own tires (though Ford had tried). There must also have been pools from the tire manufacturers to auto assembly plants.

 

Yours Aye,

 

 

Garth Groff

 

On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 11:03 AM Gatwood, Elden J SAD <elden.j.gatwood@...> wrote:

Fred;

 

Unfortunately, not yet.  I know a guy that has been working on this for 30+ years with the intention of doing a book(s), but he is overwhelmed with data. 

 

Every RR did their own version of how they handled it, and I am personally overwhelmed with just the PRR part of this, in the moment.

 

In addition, the pools changed almost yearly, with new models, changed models, and the whims of the auto makers.  I can attest to the numerous code changes, stencil changes, rack changes, and classes in use, from what I’ve dug up.

 

For your edification, you may want to look up the various auto and parts plants on-line, to see the enormous number of same in play over the years.

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>On Behalf Of Fred Swanson via groups.io
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2020 10:41 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Pool Service into California

 

Many cars serving the auto industry were in pool service.  Are there listings or other information on what lines to and from where, when?
Fred Swanson


Re: Early 20th Century Freight Cars Photograph

Claus Schlund \(HGM\)
 


Hi Jim and List members,
 
Thanks again Jim for the great image. Here are some enlargements of areas I found interesting...
 
This box car is having a problem with its door - I dare someone to model that!
 
Claus Schlund
 


Re: Early 20th Century Freight Cars Photograph

Claus Schlund \(HGM\)
 


Hi Jim and List members,
 
Thanks again Jim for the great image. Here are some enlargements of areas I found interesting...
 
This Rock Island stock car has an off-center door - see attached image.
 
Claus Schlund
 


Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Was there ever a clinic on Delano-based paint and weathering?

Brian Stokes
 

Dave, 

This is a great description. Another facet we most often overlook is how colour changes with scale. The military modellers (aircraft in particular) seem to understand this and lighten the colour as the scale shrinks. 

Brian

--
Brian Stokes
North Point Street in Proto:48


Re: Early 20th Century Freight Cars Photograph

Claus Schlund \(HGM\)
 


Hi Jim and List members,
 
Thanks Jim for the great image, I've spent some enjoyable time looking more closely at what there is to see - I will address this in some further emails on the topic...
 
Claus Schlund
 
 
 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2020 9:09 PM
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Early 20th Century Freight Cars Photograph

A photo with a lot of early freight cars:

https://digital.denverlibrary.org/digital/collection/p15330coll21/id/9552

Enlarges enough to read many of the numbers.

Jim Gates






Re: Ann Arbor Hutchins End (was FW&D 7231 Accurail kitbash)

Eric Hansmann
 

Aren’t the double sheathed cars slightly wider at the car ends?

 

 

Eric Hansmann

Murfreesboro, TN

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Fritz Milhaupt via groups.io
Sent: Monday, November 16, 2020 9:30 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Ann Arbor Hutchins End (was FW&D 7231 Accurail kitbash)

 


If the 7200-series Accurail car this is designed to fit has a 9'2" IH, then a Pere Marquette 86000-series double-sheathed boxcar becomes a reasonable project, using these ends, a Hutchins roof and home-built sides.

-Fritz Milhaupt


Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Was there ever a clinic on Delano-based paint and weathering?

erieblt2
 

Thank you for the excellent detailed explanation. I learned a lot. Thank you again. Bill S


On Nov 16, 2020, at 11:44 PM, devansprr <devans1@...> wrote:

On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 04:44 PM, Bruce Smith wrote:
"Sorry, but you’ve “triggered” me. Please save us from the pseudo-science babble of people like your optometrist friend."

What Bill wrote:
"My optometrist friend rightly points our eyes ‘see’ different colors from  others peoples eyes."
Triggered is a good description of your response - there are two ways to interpret Bill's note. You are correct about the emission and absorption of wavelengths of light coming off a surface, and that the same wavelengths enter all eyes (although cataracts can impact the absorption of specific wavelengths before the light reaches the rods and cones.)

But one could easily interpret the optometrist's remark to include the brain's portion of the process of "identifying" colors, which plays a very significant role in perceiving (and therefore "seeing") colors.

The immediate problem is that color is a perception of intensity over a broad range of wavelengths. This is why without changing the physical makeup of a surface, different lighting sources can make a color appear different  (which is why in the old days you could buy color film for daylight, or for tungsten light sources, or use filters to adjust the distribution of wavelengths entering your camera. Today, digitally, we adjust the "white balance.")

But in my experience you have oversimplified the brain's perception of color, and how people perceive them.

More significantly, people may see different colors depending on the context - what else is in the field of view? This is why I remarked that in most situations, especially those that frequently happen in the real world outside, our eyes are terrible "colorimeters."

My impression of color vision is that the optical portion of your brain never actually "learns" the wavelength of any color in any calibrated sense. Instead we "teach" the brain what a color is based on its previous memories of the color. But for minor nuances in color, the memory of the color also includes the surrounding field of view when "taught" that color. To minimize confusing the brain, minor variances in color are often "taught" with the color surrounded by white. Surrounded by white, the color data received by the brain is not modified by the brain's perception of color, light and shadow, and depth (distance.) But in the real world the brain works really hard to make sense of light, shadow, depth, distance, motion and 3D shapes. From an evolutionary survival standpoint (as both prey and predator), the brain is a lot more concerned with discerning three-D objects, movement, and determining distances and spatial relationships. So color is just one of many continuous vision interpretations performed by our brains that have little to do with the wavelength of light entering the rods and cones.

The problem is that in reality, the brain perceives colors in significant part based on ALL of the colors in the field of view, the lighting, and the perceived presence of shadows.  So while the same wavelengths may be falling into the eyes of two adjacent observers, the odds, in such a "feature rich" environment, of them properly identifying a specific reference color are remote. Note that the brain's effort perceiving the real world is much more sophisticated than observing the colors in a photograph. This was the major portion of the challenge in creating night pilotage systems - the brain is much more "focused" on identifying 3D objects, detecting motion (especially relative motion), and perceiving distance and depth, than it is in determining colors. Artists may focus on color because of the potential for creating illusions of some manner, which also points out that it is the brain that plays a significant role in assessing colors, not just the rods and cones in the back of your eye.

There are many optical illusions on the web to illustrate the variation in the perception of colors. See the following:

https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/54448/5-color-illusions-and-why-they-work

For starters, see example two - what if the center color was GN Blue?

And what if example 5 was caboose red? Which one is correct -t eh one alternating with white, or the one alternating with black?

Google "color illusions" and you will find many more. As a colorimeter, the human eye/brain sucks.

I suspect that if you took 4x8 sheets of plywood painted with modest variations of PRR FCC (from a specific era), and distributed them about a wide field of view - perhaps leaned against a railroad museum's varied rolling stock collection, with some in the sun and some in the shade, the odds of even a group of "skilled" observers reliably identifying the FCC panel would be low.

Between different lighting sources, shadows, and adjacent colors distorting the brain's perception of color (and that perception is unique to each brain), I am not interested in precise color matches of freight car colors, and I would agree with the optometrist's statement that "our eyes ‘see’ different colors from  others peoples eyes."  Although I would change "see" to "perceive", and "brains" in place of "eyes", just to reduce confusion.

Dave Evans
 


Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Pool Service into California

Garth Groff and Sally Sanford
 

Jim,

Auto makers were voracious buyers of tires, and I expect there were pools between major tire makers and auto plants. They needed reliable on-time deliveries, to keep production running. It would be interesting to have others comment on this. I just spent half-an-hour searching the web for this and found nothing, which is typical of the web.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff  🦆 


On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 11:32 PM Jim Gates via groups.io <jim.gates=ymail.com@groups.io> wrote:
I believe tires used to come individually wrapped. And they are certainly not as prone to damage as most car parts. I would think that any reasonably clean boxcar would be suitable for tires.

Jim Gates
On Monday, November 16, 2020, 02:49:43 PM CST, Garth Groff and Sally Sanford <mallardlodge1000@...> wrote:


Elden,

I second your comments on the complexity of pools. And when it comes to sub-assemblies, one also should consider that some parts were made by contractors. For instance, American Metal Products supplied seat frames and springs to a number of manufacturers. We usually think only of the Big Three manufacturers today, but Willys/Kaiser/Henry J/Frazier/Allstate, Hudson, Packard, Studebaker, Nash and others were still in the game into the 1950s, and these smaller marques likely used many more sourced products than Ford, GM or Chrysler. And remember, every car made in the US came with five tires, and AFAIK, none of auto manufacturers were making their own tires (though Ford had tried). There must also have been pools from the tire manufacturers to auto assembly plants.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff

On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 11:03 AM Gatwood, Elden J SAD <elden.j.gatwood@...> wrote:

Fred;

 

Unfortunately, not yet.  I know a guy that has been working on this for 30+ years with the intention of doing a book(s), but he is overwhelmed with data. 

 

Every RR did their own version of how they handled it, and I am personally overwhelmed with just the PRR part of this, in the moment.

 

In addition, the pools changed almost yearly, with new models, changed models, and the whims of the auto makers.  I can attest to the numerous code changes, stencil changes, rack changes, and classes in use, from what I’ve dug up.

 

For your edification, you may want to look up the various auto and parts plants on-line, to see the enormous number of same in play over the years.

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>On Behalf Of Fred Swanson via groups.io
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2020 10:41 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Pool Service into California

 

Many cars serving the auto industry were in pool service.  Are there listings or other information on what lines to and from where, when?
Fred Swanson


Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Was there ever a clinic on Delano-based paint and weathering?

devansprr
 

On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 04:44 PM, Bruce Smith wrote:
"Sorry, but you’ve “triggered” me. Please save us from the pseudo-science babble of people like your optometrist friend."

What Bill wrote:
"My optometrist friend rightly points our eyes ‘see’ different colors from  others peoples eyes."
Triggered is a good description of your response - there are two ways to interpret Bill's note. You are correct about the emission and absorption of wavelengths of light coming off a surface, and that the same wavelengths enter all eyes (although cataracts can impact the absorption of specific wavelengths before the light reaches the rods and cones.)

But one could easily interpret the optometrist's remark to include the brain's portion of the process of "identifying" colors, which plays a very significant role in perceiving (and therefore "seeing") colors.

The immediate problem is that color is a perception of intensity over a broad range of wavelengths. This is why without changing the physical makeup of a surface, different lighting sources can make a color appear different  (which is why in the old days you could buy color film for daylight, or for tungsten light sources, or use filters to adjust the distribution of wavelengths entering your camera. Today, digitally, we adjust the "white balance.")

But in my experience you have oversimplified the brain's perception of color, and how people perceive them.

More significantly, people may see different colors depending on the context - what else is in the field of view? This is why I remarked that in most situations, especially those that frequently happen in the real world outside, our eyes are terrible "colorimeters."

My impression of color vision is that the optical portion of your brain never actually "learns" the wavelength of any color in any calibrated sense. Instead we "teach" the brain what a color is based on its previous memories of the color. But for minor nuances in color, the memory of the color also includes the surrounding field of view when "taught" that color. To minimize confusing the brain, minor variances in color are often "taught" with the color surrounded by white. Surrounded by white, the color data received by the brain is not modified by the brain's perception of color, light and shadow, and depth (distance.) But in the real world the brain works really hard to make sense of light, shadow, depth, distance, motion and 3D shapes. From an evolutionary survival standpoint (as both prey and predator), the brain is a lot more concerned with discerning three-D objects, movement, and determining distances and spatial relationships. So color is just one of many continuous vision interpretations performed by our brains that have little to do with the wavelength of light entering the rods and cones.

The problem is that in reality, the brain perceives colors in significant part based on ALL of the colors in the field of view, the lighting, and the perceived presence of shadows.  So while the same wavelengths may be falling into the eyes of two adjacent observers, the odds, in such a "feature rich" environment, of them properly identifying a specific reference color are remote. Note that the brain's effort perceiving the real world is much more sophisticated than observing the colors in a photograph. This was the major portion of the challenge in creating night pilotage systems - the brain is much more "focused" on identifying 3D objects, detecting motion (especially relative motion), and perceiving distance and depth, than it is in determining colors. Artists may focus on color because of the potential for creating illusions of some manner, which also points out that it is the brain that plays a significant role in assessing colors, not just the rods and cones in the back of your eye.

There are many optical illusions on the web to illustrate the variation in the perception of colors. See the following:

https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/54448/5-color-illusions-and-why-they-work

For starters, see example two - what if the center color was GN Blue?

And what if example 5 was caboose red? Which one is correct -t eh one alternating with white, or the one alternating with black?

Google "color illusions" and you will find many more. As a colorimeter, the human eye/brain sucks.

I suspect that if you took 4x8 sheets of plywood painted with modest variations of PRR FCC (from a specific era), and distributed them about a wide field of view - perhaps leaned against a railroad museum's varied rolling stock collection, with some in the sun and some in the shade, the odds of even a group of "skilled" observers reliably identifying the FCC panel would be low.

Between different lighting sources, shadows, and adjacent colors distorting the brain's perception of color (and that perception is unique to each brain), I am not interested in precise color matches of freight car colors, and I would agree with the optometrist's statement that "our eyes ‘see’ different colors from  others peoples eyes."  Although I would change "see" to "perceive", and "brains" in place of "eyes", just to reduce confusion.

Dave Evans
 

1921 - 1940 of 181094