Date   

Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Was there ever a clinic on Delano-based paint and weathering?

Brian Stokes
 

Dave, 

This is a great description. Another facet we most often overlook is how colour changes with scale. The military modellers (aircraft in particular) seem to understand this and lighten the colour as the scale shrinks. 

Brian

--
Brian Stokes
North Point Street in Proto:48


Re: Early 20th Century Freight Cars Photograph

Claus Schlund \(HGM\)
 


Hi Jim and List members,
 
Thanks Jim for the great image, I've spent some enjoyable time looking more closely at what there is to see - I will address this in some further emails on the topic...
 
Claus Schlund
 
 
 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2020 9:09 PM
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Early 20th Century Freight Cars Photograph

A photo with a lot of early freight cars:

https://digital.denverlibrary.org/digital/collection/p15330coll21/id/9552

Enlarges enough to read many of the numbers.

Jim Gates






Re: Ann Arbor Hutchins End (was FW&D 7231 Accurail kitbash)

Eric Hansmann
 

Aren’t the double sheathed cars slightly wider at the car ends?

 

 

Eric Hansmann

Murfreesboro, TN

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Fritz Milhaupt via groups.io
Sent: Monday, November 16, 2020 9:30 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Ann Arbor Hutchins End (was FW&D 7231 Accurail kitbash)

 


If the 7200-series Accurail car this is designed to fit has a 9'2" IH, then a Pere Marquette 86000-series double-sheathed boxcar becomes a reasonable project, using these ends, a Hutchins roof and home-built sides.

-Fritz Milhaupt


Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Was there ever a clinic on Delano-based paint and weathering?

erieblt2
 

Thank you for the excellent detailed explanation. I learned a lot. Thank you again. Bill S


On Nov 16, 2020, at 11:44 PM, devansprr <devans1@...> wrote:

On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 04:44 PM, Bruce Smith wrote:
"Sorry, but you’ve “triggered” me. Please save us from the pseudo-science babble of people like your optometrist friend."

What Bill wrote:
"My optometrist friend rightly points our eyes ‘see’ different colors from  others peoples eyes."
Triggered is a good description of your response - there are two ways to interpret Bill's note. You are correct about the emission and absorption of wavelengths of light coming off a surface, and that the same wavelengths enter all eyes (although cataracts can impact the absorption of specific wavelengths before the light reaches the rods and cones.)

But one could easily interpret the optometrist's remark to include the brain's portion of the process of "identifying" colors, which plays a very significant role in perceiving (and therefore "seeing") colors.

The immediate problem is that color is a perception of intensity over a broad range of wavelengths. This is why without changing the physical makeup of a surface, different lighting sources can make a color appear different  (which is why in the old days you could buy color film for daylight, or for tungsten light sources, or use filters to adjust the distribution of wavelengths entering your camera. Today, digitally, we adjust the "white balance.")

But in my experience you have oversimplified the brain's perception of color, and how people perceive them.

More significantly, people may see different colors depending on the context - what else is in the field of view? This is why I remarked that in most situations, especially those that frequently happen in the real world outside, our eyes are terrible "colorimeters."

My impression of color vision is that the optical portion of your brain never actually "learns" the wavelength of any color in any calibrated sense. Instead we "teach" the brain what a color is based on its previous memories of the color. But for minor nuances in color, the memory of the color also includes the surrounding field of view when "taught" that color. To minimize confusing the brain, minor variances in color are often "taught" with the color surrounded by white. Surrounded by white, the color data received by the brain is not modified by the brain's perception of color, light and shadow, and depth (distance.) But in the real world the brain works really hard to make sense of light, shadow, depth, distance, motion and 3D shapes. From an evolutionary survival standpoint (as both prey and predator), the brain is a lot more concerned with discerning three-D objects, movement, and determining distances and spatial relationships. So color is just one of many continuous vision interpretations performed by our brains that have little to do with the wavelength of light entering the rods and cones.

The problem is that in reality, the brain perceives colors in significant part based on ALL of the colors in the field of view, the lighting, and the perceived presence of shadows.  So while the same wavelengths may be falling into the eyes of two adjacent observers, the odds, in such a "feature rich" environment, of them properly identifying a specific reference color are remote. Note that the brain's effort perceiving the real world is much more sophisticated than observing the colors in a photograph. This was the major portion of the challenge in creating night pilotage systems - the brain is much more "focused" on identifying 3D objects, detecting motion (especially relative motion), and perceiving distance and depth, than it is in determining colors. Artists may focus on color because of the potential for creating illusions of some manner, which also points out that it is the brain that plays a significant role in assessing colors, not just the rods and cones in the back of your eye.

There are many optical illusions on the web to illustrate the variation in the perception of colors. See the following:

https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/54448/5-color-illusions-and-why-they-work

For starters, see example two - what if the center color was GN Blue?

And what if example 5 was caboose red? Which one is correct -t eh one alternating with white, or the one alternating with black?

Google "color illusions" and you will find many more. As a colorimeter, the human eye/brain sucks.

I suspect that if you took 4x8 sheets of plywood painted with modest variations of PRR FCC (from a specific era), and distributed them about a wide field of view - perhaps leaned against a railroad museum's varied rolling stock collection, with some in the sun and some in the shade, the odds of even a group of "skilled" observers reliably identifying the FCC panel would be low.

Between different lighting sources, shadows, and adjacent colors distorting the brain's perception of color (and that perception is unique to each brain), I am not interested in precise color matches of freight car colors, and I would agree with the optometrist's statement that "our eyes ‘see’ different colors from  others peoples eyes."  Although I would change "see" to "perceive", and "brains" in place of "eyes", just to reduce confusion.

Dave Evans
 


Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Pool Service into California

Garth Groff and Sally Sanford
 

Jim,

Auto makers were voracious buyers of tires, and I expect there were pools between major tire makers and auto plants. They needed reliable on-time deliveries, to keep production running. It would be interesting to have others comment on this. I just spent half-an-hour searching the web for this and found nothing, which is typical of the web.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff  🦆 


On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 11:32 PM Jim Gates via groups.io <jim.gates=ymail.com@groups.io> wrote:
I believe tires used to come individually wrapped. And they are certainly not as prone to damage as most car parts. I would think that any reasonably clean boxcar would be suitable for tires.

Jim Gates
On Monday, November 16, 2020, 02:49:43 PM CST, Garth Groff and Sally Sanford <mallardlodge1000@...> wrote:


Elden,

I second your comments on the complexity of pools. And when it comes to sub-assemblies, one also should consider that some parts were made by contractors. For instance, American Metal Products supplied seat frames and springs to a number of manufacturers. We usually think only of the Big Three manufacturers today, but Willys/Kaiser/Henry J/Frazier/Allstate, Hudson, Packard, Studebaker, Nash and others were still in the game into the 1950s, and these smaller marques likely used many more sourced products than Ford, GM or Chrysler. And remember, every car made in the US came with five tires, and AFAIK, none of auto manufacturers were making their own tires (though Ford had tried). There must also have been pools from the tire manufacturers to auto assembly plants.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff

On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 11:03 AM Gatwood, Elden J SAD <elden.j.gatwood@...> wrote:

Fred;

 

Unfortunately, not yet.  I know a guy that has been working on this for 30+ years with the intention of doing a book(s), but he is overwhelmed with data. 

 

Every RR did their own version of how they handled it, and I am personally overwhelmed with just the PRR part of this, in the moment.

 

In addition, the pools changed almost yearly, with new models, changed models, and the whims of the auto makers.  I can attest to the numerous code changes, stencil changes, rack changes, and classes in use, from what I’ve dug up.

 

For your edification, you may want to look up the various auto and parts plants on-line, to see the enormous number of same in play over the years.

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>On Behalf Of Fred Swanson via groups.io
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2020 10:41 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Pool Service into California

 

Many cars serving the auto industry were in pool service.  Are there listings or other information on what lines to and from where, when?
Fred Swanson


Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Was there ever a clinic on Delano-based paint and weathering?

devansprr
 

On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 04:44 PM, Bruce Smith wrote:
"Sorry, but you’ve “triggered” me. Please save us from the pseudo-science babble of people like your optometrist friend."

What Bill wrote:
"My optometrist friend rightly points our eyes ‘see’ different colors from  others peoples eyes."
Triggered is a good description of your response - there are two ways to interpret Bill's note. You are correct about the emission and absorption of wavelengths of light coming off a surface, and that the same wavelengths enter all eyes (although cataracts can impact the absorption of specific wavelengths before the light reaches the rods and cones.)

But one could easily interpret the optometrist's remark to include the brain's portion of the process of "identifying" colors, which plays a very significant role in perceiving (and therefore "seeing") colors.

The immediate problem is that color is a perception of intensity over a broad range of wavelengths. This is why without changing the physical makeup of a surface, different lighting sources can make a color appear different  (which is why in the old days you could buy color film for daylight, or for tungsten light sources, or use filters to adjust the distribution of wavelengths entering your camera. Today, digitally, we adjust the "white balance.")

But in my experience you have oversimplified the brain's perception of color, and how people perceive them.

More significantly, people may see different colors depending on the context - what else is in the field of view? This is why I remarked that in most situations, especially those that frequently happen in the real world outside, our eyes are terrible "colorimeters."

My impression of color vision is that the optical portion of your brain never actually "learns" the wavelength of any color in any calibrated sense. Instead we "teach" the brain what a color is based on its previous memories of the color. But for minor nuances in color, the memory of the color also includes the surrounding field of view when "taught" that color. To minimize confusing the brain, minor variances in color are often "taught" with the color surrounded by white. Surrounded by white, the color data received by the brain is not modified by the brain's perception of color, light and shadow, and depth (distance.) But in the real world the brain works really hard to make sense of light, shadow, depth, distance, motion and 3D shapes. From an evolutionary survival standpoint (as both prey and predator), the brain is a lot more concerned with discerning three-D objects, movement, and determining distances and spatial relationships. So color is just one of many continuous vision interpretations performed by our brains that have little to do with the wavelength of light entering the rods and cones.

The problem is that in reality, the brain perceives colors in significant part based on ALL of the colors in the field of view, the lighting, and the perceived presence of shadows.  So while the same wavelengths may be falling into the eyes of two adjacent observers, the odds, in such a "feature rich" environment, of them properly identifying a specific reference color are remote. Note that the brain's effort perceiving the real world is much more sophisticated than observing the colors in a photograph. This was the major portion of the challenge in creating night pilotage systems - the brain is much more "focused" on identifying 3D objects, detecting motion (especially relative motion), and perceiving distance and depth, than it is in determining colors. Artists may focus on color because of the potential for creating illusions of some manner, which also points out that it is the brain that plays a significant role in assessing colors, not just the rods and cones in the back of your eye.

There are many optical illusions on the web to illustrate the variation in the perception of colors. See the following:

https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/54448/5-color-illusions-and-why-they-work

For starters, see example two - what if the center color was GN Blue?

And what if example 5 was caboose red? Which one is correct -t eh one alternating with white, or the one alternating with black?

Google "color illusions" and you will find many more. As a colorimeter, the human eye/brain sucks.

I suspect that if you took 4x8 sheets of plywood painted with modest variations of PRR FCC (from a specific era), and distributed them about a wide field of view - perhaps leaned against a railroad museum's varied rolling stock collection, with some in the sun and some in the shade, the odds of even a group of "skilled" observers reliably identifying the FCC panel would be low.

Between different lighting sources, shadows, and adjacent colors distorting the brain's perception of color (and that perception is unique to each brain), I am not interested in precise color matches of freight car colors, and I would agree with the optometrist's statement that "our eyes ‘see’ different colors from  others peoples eyes."  Although I would change "see" to "perceive", and "brains" in place of "eyes", just to reduce confusion.

Dave Evans
 


Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Pool Service into California

Jim Gates
 

I believe tires used to come individually wrapped. And they are certainly not as prone to damage as most car parts. I would think that any reasonably clean boxcar would be suitable for tires.

Jim Gates

On Monday, November 16, 2020, 02:49:43 PM CST, Garth Groff and Sally Sanford <mallardlodge1000@...> wrote:


Elden,

I second your comments on the complexity of pools. And when it comes to sub-assemblies, one also should consider that some parts were made by contractors. For instance, American Metal Products supplied seat frames and springs to a number of manufacturers. We usually think only of the Big Three manufacturers today, but Willys/Kaiser/Henry J/Frazier/Allstate, Hudson, Packard, Studebaker, Nash and others were still in the game into the 1950s, and these smaller marques likely used many more sourced products than Ford, GM or Chrysler. And remember, every car made in the US came with five tires, and AFAIK, none of auto manufacturers were making their own tires (though Ford had tried). There must also have been pools from the tire manufacturers to auto assembly plants.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff

On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 11:03 AM Gatwood, Elden J SAD <elden.j.gatwood@...> wrote:

Fred;

 

Unfortunately, not yet.  I know a guy that has been working on this for 30+ years with the intention of doing a book(s), but he is overwhelmed with data. 

 

Every RR did their own version of how they handled it, and I am personally overwhelmed with just the PRR part of this, in the moment.

 

In addition, the pools changed almost yearly, with new models, changed models, and the whims of the auto makers.  I can attest to the numerous code changes, stencil changes, rack changes, and classes in use, from what I’ve dug up.

 

For your edification, you may want to look up the various auto and parts plants on-line, to see the enormous number of same in play over the years.

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>On Behalf Of Fred Swanson via groups.io
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2020 10:41 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Pool Service into California

 

Many cars serving the auto industry were in pool service.  Are there listings or other information on what lines to and from where, when?
Fred Swanson


Re: Ann Arbor Hutchins End (was FW&D 7231 Accurail kitbash)

Fritz Milhaupt
 


If the 7200-series Accurail car this is designed to fit has a 9'2" IH, then a Pere Marquette 86000-series double-sheathed boxcar becomes a reasonable project, using these ends, a Hutchins roof and home-built sides.

-Fritz Milhaupt


HO scale freight car kits for sale, Branchline, Bowser and Intermountain

 

F/S: HO scale freight car kits by Branchline, Bowser and Intermountain; to receive lists send e-mail to Hugh T Guillaume at: mguill1224 at aol dot com


Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated)

Robert J. Amsler, Jr.
 

I looked up the Reading car in the ORER and it is listed as a FW, a well hole car.  I use the classification in the title of photos I download.

 

Bob Amsler

St. Louis, Missouri

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Monday, November 16, 2020 12:25 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated)

 

Bob, Guys;

 

Fabulous photo, fabulous car, fabulous load.

 

I think these cars were well cars, not well hole cars, though.  I have not seen documentation that the floor was removable, but I’d love to be proven wrong.

 

This class of RDG well flats is a great counterpoint to those made by NYC, P&LE and PRR, among others.  The use of a well strapped to the side sills (as well as to inner members), and use of various steel shapes, all heavily riveted together in various ways, is fascinating.  One can compare similar design thinking to PRR’s F25 and FN & F37 designs.

 

I LOVE well cars! 

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bob Chaparro via groups.io
Sent: Monday, November 16, 2020 12:43 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated)

 

Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated)

A photo from the National Archives of Canada:

Blockedhttps://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/CollectionSearch/Pages/record.aspx?app=FonAndCol&IdNumber=3607476

This photo can be enlarged quite a bit.

Car built 1924, photo taken 1938 or later.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


The Fall issue of The Keystone Modeler is available

Bruce Smith
 

Folks,


The Fall, 2020 issue (#114) of The Keystone Modeler is now available on the PRRT&HS web site at: http://www.prrths.com/newprr_files/newPRRKeystoneModeler.htm


A gentle reminder - If you don't see the issue listed, reload the web page so as to refresh your cache.


Regards,

Bruce 

Bruce Smith, Assistant webmaster, PRRT&HS


Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Was there ever a clinic on Delano-based paint and weathering?

Robert kirkham
 

Where does one go to see his paintings?  On-line, I see images that are affected by all the challenges we speak about whenever sharing colour information.  

Rob

On Nov 16, 2020, at 4:06 PM, Gatwood, Elden J SAD <elden.j.gatwood@...> wrote:

Amen,
 
Elden Gatwood
 
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Tony Thompson
Sent: Monday, November 16, 2020 6:30 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Was there ever a clinic on Delano-based paint and weathering?
 

     Let me remind everyone that we do have a superb source of color information about PRR freight cars from the 1940s and 1950s: the Grif Teller calendar paintings. Teller was a skilled and experienced artist, and knew quite well how to paint what he saw. And he often went trackside, both for ideas, and to check on the look of a painting in progress. Some have doubted the "orangey-red" of his PRR freight cars, but his paintings are pretty likely far more dependable than old slides that may or may not have been carefully stored and handled.

Tony Thompson
 
 
 



Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Was there ever a clinic on Delano-based paint and weathering?

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Amen,

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Tony Thompson
Sent: Monday, November 16, 2020 6:30 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Was there ever a clinic on Delano-based paint and weathering?

 

     Let me remind everyone that we do have a superb source of color information about PRR freight cars from the 1940s and 1950s: the Grif Teller calendar paintings. Teller was a skilled and experienced artist, and knew quite well how to paint what he saw. And he often went trackside, both for ideas, and to check on the look of a painting in progress. Some have doubted the "orangey-red" of his PRR freight cars, but his paintings are pretty likely far more dependable than old slides that may or may not have been carefully stored and handled.

Tony Thompson

 

 

 


Re: Group of automobile boxcars May 31, 1949

Garth Groff and Sally Sanford
 

Tim,

Then does that mean that the Western Pacific really didn't order 100 PS-1 double-door boxcars with Evans Auto Loaders in 1955, their 19301-19400? Or again in 1955, another 150 numbered 19401-19450? And yet another 100 in 1957 numbered 19601-19700 (with roller bearings, though hidden behind flip-up journal box covers)?

Or am I misunderstanding your intent in " . . . double doors could be useful for stick lumber, plywood, or furniture - but not 'automobile' cars at this late date [1949]."?

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff  🦆


On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 5:25 PM Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:

as for the assortment of road names, MP SP CG were all in nearby states not far from home. the double doors
could be useful for stick lumber, plywood, or furniture - but not 'automobile' cars at this late date




On 11/15/2020 2:46 PM, Charlie Duckworth wrote:
While I was sorting photos for the reweigh project I can across this small shot (2 3/4” by 4 1/2”) Art Johnson taken at Pensacola, Florida.  Behind the Frisco VO-660 is from left to right a PRR, ATSF, Soo Line, T&NO, MP and CoG 50 boxcars.  Anyone know of the industry in the background and why the wide assortment of road names?

Charlie Duckworth 




--
Charlie Duckworth 
Omaha, Ne.

Attachments:



--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Was there ever a clinic on Delano-based paint and weathering?

Tony Thompson
 

     Let me remind everyone that we do have a superb source of color information about PRR freight cars from the 1940s and 1950s: the Grif Teller calendar paintings. Teller was a skilled and experienced artist, and knew quite well how to paint what he saw. And he often went trackside, both for ideas, and to check on the look of a painting in progress. Some have doubted the "orangey-red" of his PRR freight cars, but his paintings are pretty likely far more dependable than old slides that may or may not have been carefully stored and handled.

Tony Thompson




Re: Ann Arbor Hutchins End (was FW&D 7231 Accurail kitbash)

Craig Wilson
 

The Rob Adams article in Culotta's Prototype Railroad Modeling book includes Arnt Gerritsen's drawings of one of the AA 74000-series cars.  A photo of the actual car Arnt and I measured is attached.  While this is a taller car than the one Robert K is modeling, it has the same Hutchins end with an extra panel added at the top.

Sadly our requests to arrange to move/preserve the car once the city DPW was done with it were ignored and the location is now a vacant lot.

Craig Wilson

AA 74000-ser boxcar.Cadillac.jpg


Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Was there ever a clinic on Delano-based paint and weathering?

Rufus Cone
 

Nature of color and perception well described, Bruce:
the emission and absorption wavelengths of refracted and reflected light from a surface (ie, the “color” of that surface) are determined by physics and are what makes any given “color” that color. That is not subject to interpretation. It is thought that individual optical receptors (rods and cones in the eye) may respond to the same wavelength differently in different individuals. Here’s where it get tricky and your friend left out a lot of details. However, even though different eyes respond differently, your brain then “learns” that the input it receives for that wavelength is say PRR, 1930’s Freight car color. My brain learns the same thing even though the input from my receptors may differ some.
This excellent book covers color and perception for those who may want additional detail, and I do not think it has been recommended here before.
Vision and Art: The Biology of Seeing by Margaret Livingstone (2nd Ed)


For perception of color, I also recommend Chapter 2 in Jeff Schewe's The Digital Print book on photography (his The Digital Negative is outstanding, too, but not specifically for color).

Rufus Cone
Bozeman, MT

 


Re: Group of automobile boxcars May 31, 1949

steve_wintner
 

That looks like one of the Soos centered door boxcars - which I thought were used almost entirely for loading huge rolls of paper. ( The doors weren't offset to the left like most double door cars. )

Steve


WANTED: NORWEST 113 NP REEFER KIT.

Jim Hayes
 

COMPLETE KIT OR JUST ROOF.


Re: Group of automobile boxcars May 31, 1949

Tim O'Connor
 


as for the assortment of road names, MP SP CG were all in nearby states not far from home. the double doors
could be useful for stick lumber, plywood, or furniture - but not 'automobile' cars at this late date




On 11/15/2020 2:46 PM, Charlie Duckworth wrote:
While I was sorting photos for the reweigh project I can across this small shot (2 3/4” by 4 1/2”) Art Johnson taken at Pensacola, Florida.  Behind the Frisco VO-660 is from left to right a PRR, ATSF, Soo Line, T&NO, MP and CoG 50 boxcars.  Anyone know of the industry in the background and why the wide assortment of road names?

Charlie Duckworth 




--
Charlie Duckworth 
Omaha, Ne.

Attachments:



--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

1941 - 1960 of 181100