Date   

Re: Coupler lift bars.

Daniel A. Mitchell
 

Indeed, though I did NOT mean that they were unsuitable for use. It’s rather a toss up ... the Tangent bars resist bending, but will snap off if overstressed, and the DA bars just bend. The DA bars can usually be straightened. Both are fine unless abused.

I don’t know what metal is used by either manufacturer. Both are non-magnetic. DA’s are shiny silver-colored (stainless steel?), while Tangent’s are a “brassy” color (possibly phosphor-bronze). 

Dan Mitchell
==========

On Oct 2, 2018, at 9:16 PM, Schuyler Larrabee <schuyler.larrabee@...> wrote:

Well, yeah, that’s a bit TOO stiff.
 
Schuyler
 
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Daniel A. Mitchell
Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2018 8:44 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Coupler lift bars.
 
Unfortunately, instead of bending they just snap off. Overly hard. Still, a nice product in general service.
 
Dan Mitchell
==========
On Oct 1, 2018, at 10:14 PM, Schuyler Larrabee <schuyler.larrabee@...> wrote:
 
I think the answer is in the description:  They don’t bend (or cut) easily.  IOW, casual handling won’t result in a bent bar.
 
Schuyler
 
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Jon Miller
Sent: Monday, October 01, 2018 7:59 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Coupler lift bars.
 
On 10/1/2018 4:11 PM, Gary McMills wrote:
Tangent parts are hard steel and don't bend or cut easily.
    I'm curious why they don't make them out of brass (cost)?
-- 
Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax  Chief/Zephyr systems, 
SPROG, JMRI User
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS
 



Re: Inside view of NP circular roof construction

Eric Hansmann
 

I've reviewed many of these historic Lackawanna images and they seem to fall into a few categories. 

First, many images document an accident. The images of the NP boxcar with the Cleveland tractors are typical. Many seem to document a worker injury or a fatality. I can't tell you how many I've seen that illustrate a crossing and the crunched remnants of an auto.

Second, many images document new facilities, especially passenger stations.

This last point took awhile to figure out. There are quite a few images of homes and pastoral scenes. I think these document property the Lackawanna needed in order to upgrade their right-of-way.

At any rate, we are fortunate that this extensive collection survived. I am not familiar with a similar railroad company photo archive. Barriger's images come close but they lack the subject focus of the Lackawanna images. 


Eric Hansmann
Murfreesboro, TN


On October 2, 2018 at 8:19 PM Schuyler Larrabee <schuyler.larrabee@...> wrote:

Many of them are, Bob, but some are simply shots of the railroad at work.

 

I’m not convinced that the equipment in the car is/was new.  The crawler looks a bit “experienced” to me, and I don’t see how the radiator could have been bent back like that from the crawler.

 

Schuyler



Re: Inside view of NP circular roof construction

BRIAN PAUL EHNI
 

The whole end seems bulged out.

 

 

Thanks!
--
Brian Ehni

 

From: <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of radiodial868 <radiodial@...>
Reply-To: <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Date: Tuesday, October 2, 2018 at 10:47 PM
To: Reply To Group <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Inside view of NP circular roof construction

 

I keep wondering why this image was of importance to take, and noticed the brake end. The lumber door is at an unusual angle, and the brake staff has a big bow in it.  Relevant?  The No Brake may be in reference that you can't turn the stemwinder. Hmm...

Also, those crawlers are new, the clean paint on the treads give it away.

http://lists.railfan.net/erielackphoto.cgi?erielack-10-01-18/X5242.jpg

RJ Dial


Re: Inside view of NP circular roof construction

np328
 

Reading my post, I now see an error. The 6000 series were built with double doors. And it was the later 30000 series that had single 6 foot doors.          Good grief.          Jim Dick  


Re: Inside view of NP circular roof construction

np328
 

 

The 6000 series (6000-6999) was built in 1923 if I recall correctly in November 1923 by GACC.

 

    It was one of those, “we need these yesterday if not sooner” car orders. The cars were needed for automobile service and at that time in the early 1920’s, if you wanted to carry auto traffic, you had to have cars sitting around empty in the rail yards of the railroads that served the Detroit auto makers. GACC responded to the NP’s demands by stating that they had just completed a group of SP cars and I believe and the jigs were still in place and NP would be given a price break and earlier slot if they agreed to compromise a bit.

 

The NP did, but just a bit.

 

    The NP demanded much, much, thicker floors (1 ¾ inch) and that affected the lower side sill attaching to the floor. It also affected how the bolsters and trucks interacted with the ability of these cars to negotiate tight industry trackage affected. I believe that later necessitated a new bolster design be cast and applied.  

 

    One thousand cars were built and about 10 years after the initial build, half or about 500 had double doors applied and these were renamed to the 30000 class.  Of the original 1000 cars built, excepting the occasional car involved in a wreck or incident as seen in the railfan.net photos, both series of cars gave very long and from the NP’s POV, a very satisfactory life lasting into the 1960’s.     

 

     These cars were downgraded from auto service into general merchandise well prior to WWII, so they would have traveled widely.

 

     I had always thought these cars (as others have posted) would be a great addition to modeling and so walked with a cardboard tube into CCB about a decade ago and handed these off to vendor. Still have duplicates of all the plans, steel detail plans, AB brake application, paint and stencil plans along with builder’s photos. I also have the roof detail plans. That is all I will say out of respect to who I gave the plans to.

 

      Since the time I gave these to a few other observations have come to lite and if I see that same vendor at Chicagoland or CCB, I will get an update and decide if the project should be re-let.

 

      OF the roof detail data supplied to Dennis, my late brother found them and we poured over these one evening while archiving.  One of the letters from the Mechanical department related on how one of the cars involved in an acute angle accident collision had most of both body sides torn clear however the roof maintained structural integrity (which must have provided the shipper whose lading was thrown about great consolation).  

 

     I know I have interior shots of these cars somewhere however here is an interior photo of another radial roofed car, XM #4982 (another as constructed, auto car.)

 

     The SP cars that these shared major dimensions with could closely resemble a Westerfield produced model also of 1922-23.

 

      Still it would be nice to see this car produced as the same plan could be used for the most part for the 6000 series accurate to 1923 and later, and the 30000 cars also. Some of these cars had Camel doors applied.   

 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             Jim Dick – St. Paul

 


Re: Inside view of NP circular roof construction

Douglas Harding
 

I took the interior image, played with it adjusting light and shadows, and found the far end of the car contains a heavily damaged tractor, with what appears to be a smashed cab. The end shot shows the end is bowed outward and as RJ reports the vertical brake shaft is also bowed. Something very heavy hit that end from the inside. There also appears to be a broken crate and blocking on the ground along side the ramp, and what appears to be a new transaxle casting on the end of the ramp. Its possible crated parts were in the center of the car and broke loose, causing the damage to the tractor and car end.

 

Doug  Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of radiodial868
Sent: Tuesday, October 2, 2018 10:47 PM
To: Reply To Group
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Inside view of NP circular roof construction

 

I keep wondering why this image was of importance to take, and noticed the brake end. The lumber door is at an unusual angle, and the brake staff has a big bow in it.  Relevant?  The No Brake may be in reference that you can't turn the stemwinder. Hmm...

Also, those crawlers are new, the clean paint on the treads give it away.

http://lists.railfan.net/erielackphoto.cgi?erielack-10-01-18/X5242.jpg

RJ Dial


Re: Inside view of NP circular roof construction

James SANDIFER
 

Note also the steering wheel broken on the crawler in the door, and I bet the seat is bent down as well. Looking as X5241 it appears that a the bent radiator crawler also had a covered body which was destroyed and that crawler is not straight in the car.  I wonder if the clearly written twice “no brake.” Has anything to do with it.

 

On the dock is some equipment that resembles the bell housing from a transmission. One possibility is that all three of the tractors in this car are damaged and are being  sent to a place for repair. The one in the middle has The Cleveland Tractor Company written on it. According to the WWW they produced small and medium size farm crawler tractors from 1918 – 1944.

 

J. Stephen Sandifer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Dennis Storzek
Sent: Tuesday, October 2, 2018 9:55 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Inside view of NP circular roof construction

 

On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 07:19 PM, Schuyler Larrabee wrote:

I’m not convinced that the equipment in the car is/was new.  The crawler looks a bit “experienced” to me, and I don’t see how the radiator could have been bent back like that from the crawler.

I disagree. The tracks are in new condition and don't show any wear, wear that would show even through new paint if it was there. My guess, the tractor was damaged in loading and the car sealed anyway, in hopes that the railroad would pay the damage claim and nobody would be fired. There was a long history of trying to push damage off on the railroads. I am a little surprised that the photographer didn't take a shot that showed specifically that the front of the next machine in line was undamaged, although that is how it appears.

Dennis Storzek


Re: Inside view of NP circular roof construction

Jon Miller
 

On 10/2/2018 8:47 PM, radiodial868 wrote:
Also, those crawlers are new, the clean paint on the treads give it away.

    On the right under the "no brake" look to be engine part/s.  Anyone have any idea on this.  Were they removed from the car?  Also note the wheel chalk in front and the wood frame that contained something.

-- 
Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax  Chief/Zephyr systems, 
SPROG, JMRI User
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Re: Inside view of NP circular roof construction

radiodial868
 

I keep wondering why this image was of importance to take, and noticed the brake end. The lumber door is at an unusual angle, and the brake staff has a big bow in it.  Relevant?  The No Brake may be in reference that you can't turn the stemwinder. Hmm...

Also, those crawlers are new, the clean paint on the treads give it away.

http://lists.railfan.net/erielackphoto.cgi?erielack-10-01-18/X5242.jpg

RJ Dial


Re: Inside view of NP circular roof construction

Gene Green <genegreen1942@...>
 

Dennis,
Thanks for the explanation.  Interesting!  Years ago, up in Minnesota, I had a chance to have a good look at the inside of such a roof.  I had no inkling then, just by looking, at how complex and sophisticated such a roof actually was.
Gene Green 


Re: Flatcar Load: Conning Tower Tube

Jack Mullen
 

What foresight of Lt. Hom to cross the line on USS HOPPER, thereby keeping this shellback discussion slightly on topic.
Jack Mullen


Re: Inside view of NP circular roof construction

Dennis Storzek
 

On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 07:19 PM, Schuyler Larrabee wrote:
I’m not convinced that the equipment in the car is/was new.  The crawler looks a bit “experienced” to me, and I don’t see how the radiator could have been bent back like that from the crawler.
I disagree. The tracks are in new condition and don't show any wear, wear that would show even through new paint if it was there. My guess, the tractor was damaged in loading and the car sealed anyway, in hopes that the railroad would pay the damage claim and nobody would be fired. There was a long history of trying to push damage off on the railroads. I am a little surprised that the photographer didn't take a shot that showed specifically that the front of the next machine in line was undamaged, although that is how it appears.

Dennis Storzek


Re: Inside view of NP circular roof construction

Douglas Harding
 

I noticed the wood block with nails sticking up, like someone had already pried it loose. Probably to move the crawler in the doorway, or may have been blocking from what was positioned between the two tractors, which was removed before the photo was taken.

 

Doug  Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Donald B. Valentine via Groups.Io
Sent: Tuesday, October 2, 2018 7:25 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Inside view of NP circular roof construction

 

          The radiator of the right-hand tractor has definitely incurred some serious damage, but from what?

Certainly it was not bent back like that from hitting the one on the left or some damage would be indicated

on that one as well. I suspect things have been moved aroud a bit before the photo was taken. 

 

          What I find of interest in the photo is the various small steel shapes from which frames and such on

the tractor were built up before casting or forging steel became so commonplace.

 

Cordially, Don Valentine

 

 

    


Re: Inside view of NP circular roof construction

Schuyler Larrabee
 

Many of them are, Bob, but some are simply shots of the railroad at work.

 

I’m not convinced that the equipment in the car is/was new.  The crawler looks a bit “experienced” to me, and I don’t see how the radiator could have been bent back like that from the crawler.

 

Schuyler

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of rwitt_2000 via Groups.Io
Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2018 4:14 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Inside view of NP circular roof construction

 

From the  view with the doors open, neg# X5241, it appears that the tractor on the right suffered major damage to its radiator (It's no longer in a vertical plane, ouch!).

 


Aren't most of these freight car photos from Steamtown documenting handling damage?

Bob Witt


Re: Inside view of NP circular roof construction

Dennis Storzek
 

On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 03:40 PM, David Soderblom wrote:
I find it especially interesting that the roof sheathing is laid on the bias.
This roof system was patented by a gentleman named Robertson, who worked for the NP. Jim Dick was nice enough to provide me with a copy of the Robertson patent a couple years ago, which does a good job of explaining the design intent.

This was one of the first roof systems that was designed to prevent "weaving" (the roof becoming a parallelogram due to twisting of the car frame while traversing rough track) rather than just accommodating it as the "flexible" roofs did. The idea was to turn the roof surface into a single shear panel, then bend this panel into a gentle curve to shed water. Not only is the roof sheathing run on the diagonal, each board is notched on its edged where it crosses the purlins, to accept cast iron key blocks to keep the boards from sliding relative to each other. This unifies the roof sheathing into a structural panel. Robertson recognized that it would be difficult to pull the boards down over the curve, and included iron tie wires in his description. While he tried to interest the major roof suppliers in marketing his invention, he was unsuccessful, and only the NP and Soo Line ever ordered cars with this roof. It seems to have worked well enough, as the several remaining examples in preservation are still in good shape, ninety years after being built. The industry move to solid steel roofs, such as the Murphy roof offered by S.R.E.Co. in the thirties quickly made this roof construction obsolete.

 Dennis Storzek


Re: Coupler lift bars.

Schuyler Larrabee
 

Well, yeah, that’s a bit TOO stiff.

 

Schuyler

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Daniel A. Mitchell
Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2018 8:44 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Coupler lift bars.

 

Unfortunately, instead of bending they just snap off. Overly hard. Still, a nice product in general service.

 

Dan Mitchell

==========

On Oct 1, 2018, at 10:14 PM, Schuyler Larrabee <schuyler.larrabee@...> wrote:

 

I think the answer is in the description:  They don’t bend (or cut) easily.  IOW, casual handling won’t result in a bent bar.

 

Schuyler

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Jon Miller
Sent: Monday, October 01, 2018 7:59 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Coupler lift bars.

 

On 10/1/2018 4:11 PM, Gary McMills wrote:

Tangent parts are hard steel and don't bend or cut easily.

    I'm curious why they don't make them out of brass (cost)?

-- 
Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax  Chief/Zephyr systems, 
SPROG, JMRI User
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS

 


Re: Flatcar Load: Conning Tower Tube

Ed
 

The Sailfish class of submarines (SS572 & SS573 - commissioned in April 1956 & Oct 1957) had conning towers and were perhaps the last built in that configuration by the US.

Ed Robinson


Re: Inside view of NP circular roof construction

Donald B. Valentine
 

          The radiator of the right-hand tractor has definitely incurred some serious damage, but from what?
Certainly it was not bent back like that from hitting the one on the left or some damage would be indicated
on that one as well. I suspect things have been moved aroud a bit before the photo was taken. 

          What I find of interest in the photo is the various small steel shapes from which frames and such on
the tractor were built up before casting or forging steel became so commonplace.

Cordially, Don Valentine


    


Re: Coupler lift bars.

Tim O'Connor
 

Gary

I thought those were all telescopic lift bars for cushion underframes. On
a cushion underframe the entire assembly shifts back and forth as much as
30" - therefore the lift bars and brake hoses must be able to move as well.

Tim O'Connor


Plano makes a selection of coupler lift bars.
Gary McMills

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: Inside view of NP circular roof construction

David Soderblom
 

I find it especially interesting that the roof sheathing is laid on the bias. I would have guessed it would have been laid longitudinally to more easily conform to the circular profile.



David Soderblom, Astronomer
Baltimore MD USA