Date   

Re: Times have changed!

Daniel A. Mitchell
 

The one you show are in exceptional condition. From my experience, perhaps 75% of of such old castings have turned to dust due to “Metal Rot” (intercrystaline corrosion). It’s due to impurities in the diecast metal, and varied from “pot to pot” in the casting process, even from the same manufacturer.

Such rot is like a bad cancer, there’s really no cure. The corrosion occurs between the metal crystals, forcing them apart. The part will first swell, distort, warp, and become covered in white powder … eventually the powder is all that’s left. If the part is not yet in awful shape you can try to get a mold off it, and thus “save” in for future reproduction.

Dan Mitchell
==========

On Sep 16, 2018, at 3:56 PM, StephenK <thekays100@...> wrote:

I think we all realize how lucky we are theses days in terms of the quality of the models that are available to us.   

Today I was looking for a car that I had stored somewhere and came upon a box of old stuff that I picked up at an estate sale years ago.   There were a pair of Varney four-wheel roller bearing passenger trucks and a pair of Megow six-wheel passenger trucks, both fairly crude but usable even now.   There was an unopened packet containing a pair of Mantua couplers  (for 25 cents).   And there was a glassine envelope containing the parts to build a pair of freight trucks.   Check out the photo.   Note that the wheels on the left have larger holes.   Those are to fit over the insulating bushings (the little black thingies).   And those sideframes!  

We should  remember this when we are complaining about some item not being 100% accurate, right?

Steve Kay <IMG_2217.JPG>


Re: caterpillar tread loads

Daniel A. Mitchell
 

I don’t know of any decent ones in HO scale, but they are available in 1/48, several types.

Unfortunately they’re not a simple shape, which is what’s wrong with about 75% of the ones offered *ON* tractor models. The common “rubber band” track just doesn’t cut it.

A crawler tractor’s track is essentially a huge roller-chain (think bicycle chain) with the track plates bolted to the outside of it. There’s a LOT “inside” the track beneath the plates. It’s much heavier and stronger than a comparable sized tank track. 

Tank tracks have to be made light so the vehicle can move fast. Typical ones consist of a series of plates hinged together at their edges. They bend AT the hinges, more-or-less at the surface of the track. A crawler tractor track bends at the roller chain joints, well below (inside) the track. The result is that the joints of the crawler track OPEN as the track bends. It’s very noticeable once you know what to look for. The track plates are oversized and overlap one another at the joints (to keep rocks and such getting stuck between the open plates).

The after-market links (soft metal) available in 1/48 scale allow modelers to replace the lousy rubber-band tracks common on otherwise acceptable models. I’ve done several such conversions myself. Unfortunately few crawler tractor modelers work in HO scale, so such parts are not available. The crawler tractor modelers mostly work in 1/48, 1/24, and 1/16 scales.

Anyway. your best bet in HO would be to carefully make a few links, then make a mold and cast more, until you had a decent length of track. A fussy, but do-able job. Such tracks are often shipped rolled into a big coil … a rather heavy coil!

Dan Mitchell
==========

On Sep 16, 2018, at 3:32 PM, Dave Yingst via Groups.Io <yingstco@...> wrote:

All this discussion of tracklayer tractor loads got me to thinking about modeling a load of treads on a flat car or gondola. Are there suitable model parts available? Thanks.
Dave Yingst
Corning,CA


1942 Airplane load in boxcar

Andy Laurent
 

Gents,
Attached picture was posted by Edwards Air Force Base on their Instagram account today. It shows the prototype XP-59 jet being unloaded from an auto boxcar in September 1942. 

Andy
Iowa


Times have changed!

StephenK
 

I think we all realize how lucky we are theses days in terms of the quality of the models that are available to us.   

Today I was looking for a car that I had stored somewhere and came upon a box of old stuff that I picked up at an estate sale years ago.   There were a pair of Varney four-wheel roller bearing passenger trucks and a pair of Megow six-wheel passenger trucks, both fairly crude but usable even now.   There was an unopened packet containing a pair of Mantua couplers  (for 25 cents).   And there was a glassine envelope containing the parts to build a pair of freight trucks.   Check out the photo.   Note that the wheels on the left have larger holes.   Those are to fit over the insulating bushings (the little black thingies).   And those sideframes!  

We should  remember this when we are complaining about some item not being 100% accurate, right?

Steve Kay


caterpillar tread loads

Dave Yingst
 

All this discussion of tracklayer tractor loads got me to thinking about modeling a load of treads on a flat car or gondola. Are there suitable model parts available? Thanks.
Dave Yingst
Corning,CA


Re: ARA Diagrams

Ralph W. Brown
 

Hi Charlie,

What software are you using to prepare your artwork?

Thanks,


Ralph Brown
Portland, Maine
PRRT&HS No. 3966
NMRA No. L2532

rbrown51[at]maine[dot]rr[dot]com

-----Original Message-----
From: Charlie Vlk
Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2018 1:06 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] ARA Diagrams

All
I regularly use photos to prepare L&P artwork and will do so for CB&Q as there are so many variations between different cars.
I am just trying to understand the source for the lettering since everything was referenced so thoroughly “back in the day”.
It seems curious that no Q drawings or numbers have been found for lettering.....just the ARA reference.
Charlie Vlk


NYRB Ventilated cars mysteries

Peter Ness
 

This isn’t terribly important, but it is a mystery to me, anyway;

 

While gathering information on ERDX 10000-10099 and ERDX 110000-11049 (or 11000-11099 depending where you look…) cars between the Canadian Southern website (wonderful site!) and my January 1959 ORER, I stumbled across NYRB 2500-2599 in the ORER that is not listed on the CS website.

 

Curiously (to me) there was also a listing of NYRX 2500-2599 both in the ORER and on the website. Now, the mystery (to me) is because both NYRX 2500-2599 and NYRB 2500-2599 have the same dimensions as the ERDX 11000-11099 cars; in the ORER the ERDX and NYRB cars are both listed as Ventilated, while the NYRX cars are listed as Refrigerated.

 

So, one mystery (to me) is if the NYRB cars were ever built?

Another mystery; if there were only 50 ERDX 110000-11099 cars rebuilt from Lot 734-B box cars in 1958, and 50 NYRX 2500-2599 cars were also built from  Lot 734-B box cars, from what were the NYRB cars built (since they have the same dimensions)?

 

A couple of questions: Does anyone know what trucks were applied to the ERDX 10000-10099 cars built in 1953 and the ERDX 11000-11049 cars built in 1958?

How were cars without roof hatches ventilated? I have not seen any photos of the NYRX cars, but in 1958 I’m assuming they were mechanical refrigerators without hatches….

 

For information, all of this was driven because I have a couple of ERDX cars made by 5th Avenue Shops (IIRC) sometime in the last millennium.  I sort of put these cars aside a while back because someone told me; “Yes, they are nice cars but the prototypes were 50’ cars”…and I never checked until now.  So there may be problems with roof, ends, sides, brake gear and trucks, but knowing the length is close to correct is a start down the path of redemption for the cars.

 

Thanks for any and all help on the NYRX and NYRB questions, and truck info for the ERDX cars.

 

Peter Ness


Re: ARA Diagrams

Charlie Vlk
 

All
I regularly use photos to prepare L&P artwork and will do so for CB&Q as there are so many variations between different cars.
I am just trying to understand the source for the lettering since everything was referenced so thoroughly “back in the day”.
It seems curious that no Q drawings or numbers have been found for lettering.....just the ARA reference.
Charlie Vlk


Re: Captured gondola? (correction)

Ed Hawkins
 


On Sep 15, 2018, at 10:08 PM, Ed Hawkins <hawk0621@...> wrote:

ACF Lot 5114 supplied B&O six hundred car sets of underframes & sides headed in the gondola cars to B&O’s DuBois, Pa. car shops for final assembly becoming B&O 400000-470599, class M-66. At 3 car sets of sides & 6 underframes per gondola load, 300 gondola loads were required to ship the entire order. It would be interesting to know the identities of all 300 cars used to move the car sets from Berwick to DuBois.

At roughly the same time, B&O received 400 car sets for 10’ IH 40’-6” PS-1 box cars that the railroad also assembled at DuBois becoming B&O 400600-400999, class M-67. These “kits” were supplied to B&O by Pullman-Standard, however, available Pullman data does not denote a lot number or which plant the sides & underframes were built (most likely either Butler, Pa. or Michigan City, Ind.). 

David & others interested,
Last night my eyes must have been out of focus as I specified the car number series of the cars built by B&O’s DuBois car shops, which I’m now correcting.

ACF kits: 470000-470599, M-66
P-S kits: 470600-470999, M-67

Regards,
Ed Hawkins


Re: one

mopacfirst
 

Sorry, not trying to be nonsensical, but that single word 'one' apparently slipped out of the text and became the subject line, when I was writing about Burlington SM-18 cars.

Ron Merrick


one

mopacfirst
 

Maybe one will show up on eBay someday.  I bought several MP cars from Sunshine's offering, since that's what I'm modeling, and a Frisco car and a couple of others that would have likely been seen in central Kansas.  No idea why I didn't pick up a Q one, but my hindsight isn't very good.

Ron Merrick


Re: ARA Diagrams

John Hagen <sprinthag@...>
 

All.

Not being an expert (don’t want to be either. Look at the word; Ex is a has-been and spurt is a drip under pressure) I have spent an inordinate amount of time looking at prototype photos while drawing decal sets.

Also, the NMRA’s Data Sheet #D5e gives decent overall view of the lettering as it was for a good part of the 20th Century. The sheet was originally drawn up in 1956 and up-dated in 1999.

While the ARA did use a semi squarish serif font (i.e. one of the many “Railroad Roman” fonts) it was not mandatory. Railroads could and did use whatever they choose. From what I have observed they use either a serif (roman) or a sanserif (Gothic) font that were easily read.

What was important is the layout of the pertinent data. The positioning and size of the data is prescribed, including the gaps between multiple rows of data, such as weights and dimensions.

While there has probably been suggested serif fonts I have yet to find an ARA, FRA or any other RR administration alphabets. This is why I find prototype photos the only real way to get the fonts accurate. And that has to be fiddled with in order to get correct LOOKING (often different from prototypically correct) lettering. Take the letter “P” for instance. Depending on the scale and the size of the letter in that scale, changes will have to made if the opening in the flag will print as a solid, or as a D shaped loop that has an open center or as a blob. What I have found, using the “P” again is the letter is a semi square with the corners at the left (or mast end) have sharp 90O corners. The flag end has rounded corners, which can vary between roads, or between shops on the same road, or even depending on just when the shop had a new set of stencils cut. Usually the overall shape of the letter will be basically constant but if they are using one piece stencils as for weight and dimensional data, the number and location of the connecting bridges can be different.

I have I think three commercially purchased RR Roman font sets (one that very rough and I wouldn’t consider actually using for anything other than signs for old time, rough and ready bar signs in mining and/or lumbering settlements. I have drawn up three more RR Roman style fonts, on I have decided to make my “go to” even though it will require some reshaping to get it to fit a particular set. What I do is place the alphabet on my work space and, using the photo as my pattern, I modify all letters and the 0-9 needed for that set. Then I will simply copy and paste as needed. Once we get down to letters 2” or less, the accuracy becomes less important and I will not go nutso there. Looking correct on the small stuff is what counts. But for road names, heralds. reporting marks and anything over three inches I get quite fussy.

Once I have useable font I can then just type it in. changes to height, width and spacing can be easily adjustable using the type tool bars. However, the thickness, or “weight” of the lettering is not always easy to set. Most font you get a normal or bold or black (very bold) to choose from and they do not always work. And that ain’t easy to modify. This is why I sometimes draw up my own fonts.

Many of the Roman (serif) commercial fonts have somewhat rounded corners everywhere, less so on the “mast” end, but enough that the vertical bars are snot strictly straight between the mast and where the curve on the right end or the flag begins. I have never found that of rail cars that I can verify.

And that’s what I think.

John Hagen

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Tony Thompson
Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2018 8:45 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] ARA Diagrams

 

Charlie Vlk wrote:



A number of CB&Q Lettering & Painting diagrams for freight cars call out ARA standard lettering so I am guessing that something from the ARA was used to generate the stencils or serve as a guide for the painters.   AFAIK no Q alphabet and number sets have surfaced and there are no Q drawing numbers referenced on L&P drawings for Roman characters.

 

         Maybe that call-out meant the standard arrangement of lettering? Their lettering does NOT match the MCB design, especially the numerals, which are more condensed in CB&Q lettering than in the MCB-ARA-AAR "standard" lettering.

 

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA

2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com

(510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@...

Publishers of books on railroad history

 

 



 


Re: Captured gondola?

Ed Hawkins
 


On Sep 15, 2018, at 4:58 PM, David via Groups.Io <jaydeet2001@...> wrote:

I don't think these car sides were manufactured anywhere on the RF&P:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/barrigerlibrary/28830320257/in/album-72157649155982802/

David,
The load of 6 welded 40’-6” box car sides shown in the photo were built at ACF’s Berwick, Pa. plant, as were loads of 6 welded underframes with a sample load photographed for delivery in a P&LE gondola in the same series of ACF Lot 5114 Flickr photos. 

ACF Lot 5114 supplied B&O six hundred car sets of underframes & sides headed in the gondola cars to B&O’s DuBois, Pa. car shops for final assembly becoming B&O 400000-470599, class M-66. At 3 car sets of sides & 6 underframes per gondola load, 300 gondola loads were required to ship the entire order. It would be interesting to know the identities of all 300 cars used to move the car sets from Berwick to DuBois.

At roughly the same time, B&O received 400 car sets for 10’ IH 40’-6” PS-1 box cars that the railroad also assembled at DuBois becoming B&O 400600-400999, class M-67. These “kits” were supplied to B&O by Pullman-Standard, however, available Pullman data does not denote a lot number or which plant the sides & underframes were built (most likely either Butler, Pa. or Michigan City, Ind.). 

As far as I can determine, the 1,000 completed M-66 & M-67 box cars with build dates in late 1957 to early 1958 were the final 10’ IH box cars built in the U.S.A.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins


Re: Captured gondola?

Bruce Smith
 

David,

No,they were probably not manufactured on the RF&P. Nor were they for the RF&P as it looks like they are destined for the B&O. Given that it's an AC&F photo, the car sides (and maybe under frames) it's likely taken at the site of manufacture, AC&F. I'm not sure of which AC&F facility it is, but almost all would be an appropriate return load for an RF&P gon headed for the B&O.

Regards
Bruce
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL
________________________________________
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of David via Groups.Io <jaydeet2001=yahoo.com@groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2018 4:58 PM
To: RealSTMFC@groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Captured gondola?

I don't think these car sides were manufactured anywhere on the RF&P:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/barrigerlibrary/28830320257/in/album-72157649155982802/

David Thompson


Re: ARA Diagrams

Tony Thompson
 

Charlie Vlk wrote:

A number of CB&Q Lettering & Painting diagrams for freight cars call out ARA standard lettering so I am guessing that something from the ARA was used to generate the stencils or serve as a guide for the painters.   AFAIK no Q alphabet and number sets have surfaced and there are no Q drawing numbers referenced on L&P drawings for Roman characters.

         Maybe that call-out meant the standard arrangement of lettering? Their lettering does NOT match the MCB design, especially the numerals, which are more condensed in CB&Q lettering than in the MCB-ARA-AAR "standard" lettering.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history






Re: D8 Bulldozer as a Flat Car Load

David Soderblom
 

Cow and calf!


Re: ARA Diagrams

Charlie Vlk
 

Tony
A number of CB&Q Lettering & Painting diagrams for freight cars call out ARA standard lettering so I am guessing that something from the ARA was used to generate the stencils or serve as a guide for the painters.   AFAIK no Q alphabet and number sets have surfaced and there are no Q drawing numbers referenced on L&P drawings for Roman characters.
Charlie Vlk


On Sep 15, 2018, at 2:30 PM, Tony Thompson <tony@...> wrote:

Charlie Vlk wrote:

While we’re touching Association diagrams, does anyone have ARA standard Roman serif lettering drawings?   The only reference I’ve been able to find is mention of the recommended lettering and a few examples from minutes of annual meetings.
 
      Charlie, the reference to this lettering as "standard," is quite misleading, since few if any railroads bothered to use the design (which originated way back when, with the MCB). Obviously it was not an enforced standard. Whenever it is referred to, the AAR manual, sections K and L, is cited. But I've never seen a full sheet of it. And since no major railroad of which I'm aware used it, I'm not sure I see the utility of ever finding it.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history






Re: Actual Burlington SM-18 cars

Nelson Moyer
 

The main difference between the SM-16 and SM-18/18A was that the former series had lumber doors on the A end and the latter cars did not. Otherwise, they were essentially identical. At least two color photos of SM-18 cars exist (CB&Q 58587D and CB&Q 58118), but I don’t remember the source I scanned them from. There are two color photos of a long string of SM-16 and SM-18 stock cars in one of the color books. The photos were high level shots taken in Minneapolis, but again, I don’t remember which book. The notable feature of those two photos is the way the board roofs weathered. I have scans of these photos, but I don’t have permission to post them. As Steve says, Burlington Bulletin No. 25 is THE reference on CB&Q stock cars. There have been many photo of SM-18 models built by several people, and the Sunshine kit is a very good representation of these cars. If you’ve seen the model, you’ve seen the car.

 

Nelson Moyer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of James SANDIFER
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2018 7:43 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Actual Burlington SM-18 cars

 

The Burlington Bulletin No. 25, was dedicated to Stock Cars and Livestock Traffic of the Burlington. Pages 69-73  contain photos, Folio info and a scale drawing. “The SM-18 and 18A cars were company built copies of the SM-16s. All 500 SM-18s (56950-57449) were constructed in Aurora in 1926 while the 1,000 SM-18As (55950-56949) were turned out at Galesburg in 1926-27 (750 cars) and 1928 (250 cars). “

 

 

J. Stephen Sandifer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of mopacfirst
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2018 7:06 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Actual Burlington SM-18 cars

 

All this conversation about trucks under stock cars, and not a clue what the cars looked like.  All I ask is a number series, in at least the hope that some photos exist.

I pulled out my late friend Mike Spoor's CB&Q color guide, but all that's there are various SM-19 series.

I don't think these were Mather cars, were they?

Ron Merrick


Captured gondola?

David
 

I don't think these car sides were manufactured anywhere on the RF&P:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/barrigerlibrary/28830320257/in/album-72157649155982802/

David Thompson


Re: ARA Diagrams

Tony Thompson
 

Charlie Vlk wrote:

While we’re touching Association diagrams, does anyone have ARA standard Roman serif lettering drawings?   The only reference I’ve been able to find is mention of the recommended lettering and a few examples from minutes of annual meetings.
 
      Charlie, the reference to this lettering as "standard," is quite misleading, since few if any railroads bothered to use the design (which originated way back when, with the MCB). Obviously it was not an enforced standard. Whenever it is referred to, the AAR manual, sections K and L, is cited. But I've never seen a full sheet of it. And since no major railroad of which I'm aware used it, I'm not sure I see the utility of ever finding it.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history