Date   

Re: Tank Car: HMHX 6012

dave w
 

I'd take the "Notes' description with a grain of salt.
You do not find steam venting from "vacated industrial plants" . Given Creation Date: 12/8/1949  it seems to fall within a span of significance as the logo sign on the  water tower is by no means aged.
Someone is keeping resources running, otherwise, why would a tank car be sitting in the yard?
d


Re: 1923 Buicks On Grand Trunk Flat Car

Donald B. Valentine
 

An interesting new/old style of what is now called and "auto rack"!

Cordially, Don Valentine

Virus-free. www.avast.com


Re: Modeling Those WLE SS cars w/7-ft doors

Dennis Storzek
 

On Tue, Sep 4, 2018 at 02:01 PM, Bill Welch wrote:
Someone reminded me of this Westerfield kit: https://id18538.securedata.net/westerfieldmodels.com/merchantmanager/product_info.php?cPath=98_295&products_id=489
Those really don't count, since they are end doors, not ends. The equipment diagram for that lot shows the other end is a normal solid end with horizontal corrugations. I believe those end doors were a Murphy product. There is a general arrangement drawing in the 1922 CBC of a U.P. auto car with similar ends. The opposite end of that car is a three panel Murphy end similar to what was used on USRA boxcars.

I've also finally had a chance to look at Art Million's Pere Marquette freightcar book. Turns out the "outie" vertical corrugated ends on the automobile cars 85000-85999 were also Murphy products according to the equipment diagrams reproduced in the book.

That leaves the W&LE cars as the only known example of the vertical Vulcan ends. I wouldn't worry about the "outie" ends with tapering ribs shown in the advertising text in the 1919 CBC as I doubt they ever made in into production. You'll note the the illustration that accompanies the text appears to be a heavily retouched photo, possibly of one of the W&LE cars, used to illustrate a concept that was likely never put into production.

Dennis Storzek


Re: My railroad materials

James SANDIFER
 

I will agree. In writing my livestock operations book I longed for simple little non descript books like the records of livestock forwarded or records of livestock shipped. You would be amazed at how scarce they are. People thought them useless and threw them away.

 

 

J. Stephen Sandifer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Schuyler Larrabee
Sent: Tuesday, September 4, 2018 10:19 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] My railroad materials

 

Tim, I would say that the Conductor’s books are in fact “genuine, primary archival materials.”  They were created by actual railroaders in the pursuit of their work, it doesn’t get much more authentic, on-the-ground recording of “what really happened.:  Granted a single book may contain anomalies, but an entire book will cover the normal run of what was carried in regular normal trains.

 

Schuyler

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Tim O'Connor
Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2018 2:04 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] My railroad materials

 


For people with genuine, primary archival materials - of whatever kind -
I agree this can be difficult to figure out. I have virtually no materials
of this kind - conductor's books, cyclopedias, a few other genuine railroad
publications is all. I'm confident that none of them are unique, and therefore
I'm happy to instruct my heirs to sell them (Ebay etc) - or keep anything they
like. I figure if someone is willing to pay money to own them, then whatever
protection they receive will be because a new person values them. In the end
I think "continuous custody" is the only long term solution. Even museums and
official archives can be impermanent. (Maybe I'm thinking of the horrific fire
yesterday in Brazil that destroyed literally millions of items collected over
the previous 200 years.)


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: My railroad materials

Schuyler Larrabee
 

Tim, I would say that the Conductor’s books are in fact “genuine, primary archival materials.”  They were created by actual railroaders in the pursuit of their work, it doesn’t get much more authentic, on-the-ground recording of “what really happened.:  Granted a single book may contain anomalies, but an entire book will cover the normal run of what was carried in regular normal trains.

 

Schuyler

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Tim O'Connor
Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2018 2:04 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] My railroad materials

 


For people with genuine, primary archival materials - of whatever kind -
I agree this can be difficult to figure out. I have virtually no materials
of this kind - conductor's books, cyclopedias, a few other genuine railroad
publications is all. I'm confident that none of them are unique, and therefore
I'm happy to instruct my heirs to sell them (Ebay etc) - or keep anything they
like. I figure if someone is willing to pay money to own them, then whatever
protection they receive will be because a new person values them. In the end
I think "continuous custody" is the only long term solution. Even museums and
official archives can be impermanent. (Maybe I'm thinking of the horrific fire
yesterday in Brazil that destroyed literally millions of items collected over
the previous 200 years.)


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: My railroad materials

Jared Harper
 

Thanks Denny.

Your long letter gave me something to ponder.  I am considering several possible destinations materials.  The CSRM is not one of them.  At the top of my list are the Santa Fe Rwy. Historical and Modeling Society's archives at Temple, TX, and the Kansas State Historical Society.

Jared Harper


Tank Car: HMHX 6012

Bob Chaparro
 

Here is another photo link from the Free Library of Philadelphia:

https://libwww.freelibrary.org/digital/item/44466

Click on the photo to enlarge it.

The three compartment tank car appears to be HMHX 6012. Two sources list the owner as Tank Car Corp. Of America.

Comment for the photo: "View of a vacated industrial plant. Location was the site of the Union Petroleum Company, circa 1910. Then the Sinclair Refining Company, circa 1942. Circa 1962 the location belonged to the Paint Manufacturing Company. Demolish date sometime after 1962."

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Re: Modeling Those WLE SS cars w/7-ft doors

Bill Welch
 


Re: 1923 Buicks On Grand Trunk Flat Car

Richard Brennan
 

As mentioned by Ralph and Bob...
Here is the high-rez positive
Attribution: 1923 Buicks. [Photographic Prints]. Retrieved from https://libwww.freelibrary.org/digital/item/30581
--------------------
Richard Brennan - San Leandro CA
--------------------

At 11:50 AM 9/4/2018, Ralph W. Brown wrote:
Thanks for posting the link. I was able to convert it to a positive. There are what appear to be touring cars, nine of them, loaded aboard GT 69907. The upper portion of the the first four digits of the number are obscured by a board to which a brace has been nailed, so the “6â€


Re: 1923 Buicks On Grand Trunk Flat Car

Ralph W. Brown
 

Hi Ian,

Many thanks. That is just the info I was looking to see.

It's amazing to realize that a third of these 1906 wood flat cars lasted for almost 70 years!

Pax,


Ralph Brown
Portland, Maine
PRRT&HS No. 3966
NMRA No. L2532

rbrown51[at]maine[dot]rr[dot]com

-----Original Message-----
From: Ian Cranstone
Sent: Tuesday, September 4, 2018 2:59 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Cc: Ralph W. Brown
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] 1923 Buicks On Grand Trunk Flat Car

On 2018-09-04 14:50, Ralph W. Brown wrote:

Thanks for posting the link. I was able to convert it to a positive. There are what appear to be touring cars, nine of them, loaded aboard GT 69907. The upper portion of the the first four digits of the number are obscured by a board to which a brace has been nailed, so the "6" and the "0" are not 100% certain. I suppose the "6" could be an "8," but there is no question in my mind about the two "9"s and I'm reasonably sure about the "0" too.

The flat car looks to be of wood construct with truss rods and arch bar trucks, but with steel bolsters and queen posts. Do any of you knowledgeable GT types out there know whether "69907" is a valid number for such a GT flat car ca. 1922? (The photo is dated 10-31-22.)
I also see GT 69907. This car was part of a group of 30 cars constructed
by the Canada Car Co. in May 1906 as GT 69900-69929. These cars were
unusually long for the era at 61', and there were some loading
restrictions regarding the distribution of weight along their decks.
Following the GTR's incorporation into Canadian National Railways in
1923, these cars were renumbered to CN 600300-600326 between 1923 and
1927. A few survived into the late 1960s and were subsequently
renumbered CN 660000-660009 in 1968-69, with the last listing in the
ORER being in January 1974.

Ian Cranstone
Osgoode, Ontario, Canada
lamontc@...


Re: 1923 Buicks On Grand Trunk Flat Car

Ian Cranstone
 

On 2018-09-04 14:50, Ralph W. Brown wrote:

Thanks for posting the link. I was able to convert it to a positive. There are what appear to be touring cars, nine of them, loaded aboard GT 69907. The upper portion of the the first four digits of the number are obscured by a board to which a brace has been nailed, so the "6" and the "0" are not 100% certain. I suppose the "6" could be an "8," but there is no question in my mind about the two "9"s and I'm reasonably sure about the "0" too.
The flat car looks to be of wood construct with truss rods and arch bar trucks, but with steel bolsters and queen posts. Do any of you knowledgeable GT types out there know whether "69907" is a valid number for such a GT flat car ca. 1922? (The photo is dated 10-31-22.)
I also see GT 69907. This car was part of a group of 30 cars constructed by the Canada Car Co. in May 1906 as GT 69900-69929. These cars were unusually long for the era at 61', and there were some loading restrictions regarding the distribution of weight along their decks. Following the GTR's incorporation into Canadian National Railways in 1923, these cars were renumbered to CN 600300-600326 between 1923 and 1927. A few survived into the late 1960s and were subsequently renumbered CN 660000-660009 in 1968-69, with the last listing in the ORER being in January 1974.

Ian Cranstone
Osgoode, Ontario, Canada
lamontc@...


Re: 1923 Buicks On Grand Trunk Flat Car

Ralph W. Brown
 

Hi Bob,
 
Thanks for posting the link.  I was able to convert it to a positive.  There are what appear to be touring cars, nine of them, loaded aboard GT 69907.  The upper portion of the the first four digits of the number are obscured by a board to which a brace has been nailed, so the “6” and the “0” are not 100% certain.  I suppose the “6” could be an “8,” but there is no question in my mind about the two “9”s and I’m reasonably sure about the “0” too.
 
The flat car looks to be of wood construct with truss rods and arch bar trucks, but with steel bolsters and queen posts.  Do any of you knowledgeable GT types out there know whether “69907” is a valid number for such a GT flat car ca. 1922?  (The photo is dated 10-31-22.) 
 
Thanks,
 
 
Ralph Brown
Portland, Maine
PRRT&HS No. 3966
NMRA No. L2532

rbrown51[at]maine[dot]rr[dot]com
 

From: Bob Chaparro
Sent: Tuesday, September 4, 2018 1:16 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] 1923 Buicks On Grand Trunk Flat Car
 

Photo link from the Free Library of Philadelphia:

https://libwww.freelibrary.org/digital/item/30581

Click on the photo to enlarge it.

This is a negative image that must be inverted in a photo editing program for better viewing.

There are no additional notes for this photo. It appears there are nine cars stacked on the flat car. The supporting structure is not all that robust, in my opinion.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Re: My railroad materials

Tim O'Connor
 


For people with genuine, primary archival materials - of whatever kind -
I agree this can be difficult to figure out. I have virtually no materials
of this kind - conductor's books, cyclopedias, a few other genuine railroad
publications is all. I'm confident that none of them are unique, and therefore
I'm happy to instruct my heirs to sell them (Ebay etc) - or keep anything they
like. I figure if someone is willing to pay money to own them, then whatever
protection they receive will be because a new person values them. In the end
I think "continuous custody" is the only long term solution. Even museums and
official archives can be impermanent. (Maybe I'm thinking of the horrific fire
yesterday in Brazil that destroyed literally millions of items collected over
the previous 200 years.)



--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


1923 Buicks On Grand Trunk Flat Car

Bob Chaparro
 

Photo link from the Free Library of Philadelphia:

https://libwww.freelibrary.org/digital/item/30581

Click on the photo to enlarge it.

This is a negative image that must be inverted in a photo editing program for better viewing.

There are no additional notes for this photo. It appears there are nine cars stacked on the flat car. The supporting structure is not all that robust, in my opinion.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Re: My railroad materials

Denny Anspach
 

I have hesitated responding to this heartfelt and increasing common dilemma not because it is not real, but because the answers contain more variables than Carter has pills. My own bonafides in this matter are that I am the long time volunteer Chairman of Collections at California State Railroad Museum (a lively committee of professional staff and dedicated volunteers), a major part of which includes the library and the archives.

Disposal of my own personal collections are also a very personal and quite relevant household topic. These are my observations, not that of CSRM.

A major continuing issue for CSRM is how to exactly to respond to such posed rich gifts such as Jared’s? The Museum may love to have them, even die for them, but…..do we have the resources -professional personnel, space, materials, and…..money- to process, catalogue, preserve and conserve them for public access and use? Where would such a collection fit within CSRM’s formal and fully vetted Scope of Collections?

I can safely say that most of our donated personal collections of paper over the years are in countless libraries, historical societies (big and small); museums big and small, formal or informal, institutionalized or not; piled on the floor, overflowing on shelving, packed into file cabinets, etc. They are not organized, inventoried, catalogued, or have undergone the most rudimentary archival conservation or preservation. There they still lie, while the generations for which they were intended to serve for posterity have -astoundingly- moved on from any common or cultural knowledge of steam (“Where are the motors?”); fallen flags, e.g. Milwaukee, NYC, Burlington, even…Santa Fe; and most sadly, even the Railroad itself, because railroads and railroading is simply not a part of current culture. Those of us holding down the forts in these venues are being succeeded by so many others whose passion for these is not personal but much more arm’s length. These very facts underlie the the increasing paucity of institutions willing to take our railroad collections, process them, and provide the professional staffing to make them publicly available.

Hard questions to ask as you consider sites for donations (random order):

If the donation is a gift, is the institution actually willing to receive it?

If the donation is a gift, is the institution free to gift, sell, or discard the same donated items?

If the donation is a gift, will the institution commit to process, catalog and make available your materials within a reasonable time?

Will the receiving institution actually have the resources to process the materials (aside from providing floor space)?

Does the receiving institution have institutional longevity, i.e. a future beyond current dedicated, committed, and even profoundly knowledgable volunteers? A Business Plan that gives assurance of strong financial footing into the future? Professional key staffing? Will the institution in fact be around?

Will it give you heartburn if your carefully-collected materials end up on eBay, at the flea market, or……even in a dumpster?

CSRM has truly enviable archival facilities (so described by a visiting accrediting officer from the largest US museum), but at current professional and volunteer staffing and tax-supported budgetary levels, it would take an informally-estimated 5-10 years of work to bring all of our materials into the public arena. This is because for a number of decades (the museum library and archives are now 38 years), the museum was not so very choosy about what to take into its collections, largely because all attention was being deferred to the large artifacts, major catalogued photo collections, and the corporate records of major railroads. The problems were and are made worse by the fact that all donations -paper, or solid- become the property of the sovereign state of California; as a result of which, any disposal of same requires a constitutional Byzantine process that makes an Act of Congress look like a piece of cake.

What can one do with thirty-odd copies of Kip Farington’s MEN OF ERIE? What does one do with a huge box of random unidentified piled-up -hundreds, thousands?- Kodachrome slides of GN wrecks (taken by a GN wreck foreman)? What does one do with two such massive piles of unidentified freight and passenger equipment slides donated by a very-active now departed long time prolific contributor to this and other lists? These duplicative and pragmatically-unusable gifts take up hundreds of feet of archival shelf space that, if emptied, would open up staff time and resources better to receive more useful materials.

As a result of this, CSRM now critically vets all proffered and potential gifts, giving up-front consideration to those gifts that are already catalogued and organized, are within CSRM’s scope of interests, are in archival sleeving, and -if meeting all other criteria…..are also accompanied by a gift of money to underwrite the costs of bringing the materials to public use.

This is a major balancing act, matching CSRM's ardent public duty to collect, preserve, and make accessible its collections, against the realities of what CSRM can actually do within the bounds of reality. It has been a major subject of discussion and concern as recently as our last meeting several weeks ago. We are optimistic that we will gain some relief with better funding and staff additions. As we speak, we are actively vetting two major national collections in the wings that personally I believe should be a slam-dunk, but….my better self knows will be better served for posterity by going through all the hoops.

In my own case, I have been disposing of excess duplicative materials through our local Friends of the Sacramento Library, who sells them at Book Fairs and on eBay. Other museums and libraries will receive materials special to their interests and locales.

I intend to begin my own selective saving of all my own Kodachrome slide materials, sufficient that they will be in a package small enough to be acceptable (no guarantee, no honor in my own house).

This is a difficult but apt subject without a lot of good answers.

Denny


Denny S. Anspach MD
Okoboji, IA


Re: Modeling Those WLE SS cars w/7-ft doors

Brent Greer
 

Even if he doesn't opt to design/produce the whole cars or car sides, it would be great if the ends could be made available again.  As long as the group knows they are available, I'm sure there will be a good number of sales for him.


Brent



Dr. J. Brent Greer



From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Ray Breyer via Groups.Io <rtbsvrr69@...>
Sent: Tuesday, September 4, 2018 11:34 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Modeling Those WLE SS cars w/7-ft doors
 
The ends I showed yesterday are no longer available to print on Shapeways, but they were. Remember that it's up to the individual artist as to what's offered for review or purchase on that site, not Shapeways itself. Things come and go frequently.

I just asked the designer if he's interested in producing either the W&LE or PM cars, or both.

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL


On Tuesday, September 4, 2018, 9:42:17 AM CDT, bigfourroad <vannessco@...> wrote:


As a first step I went to Shapeways and searched for the Vulcan ends, no luck but lots of other ends there. McKeen Car produces Van Dorn target ends. Yuma Shops produces an SAL car and several styles of NKP and PM ends both convex and concave corrugations. As a general principle if the designer designed with prototype dimensions then scaling is readily done. Also O and S scale designs can usually be downscaled to HO successfully. The reverse up from N is not as universally possible. Most designers seem to be willing to scale up or down if they have the time and see a demand.
Since an image of a design appeared here it is assumed it was printed somewhere. Shapeways doesn’t always sort and often people don’t name parts and tags comprehensively.
Chris Rooney



Halladay Automobile In Boxcar

Bob Chaparro
 

Photo link from the Free Library of Philadelphia:

https://libwww.freelibrary.org/digital/item/53998

Click on the photo to enlarge it.

This shows a Halladay automobile being loaded at the Barley Manufacturing Company in Streator, IL, in 1915.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


1940s Reynolds Metals Co. Container

Bob Chaparro
 

Photo link from the Free Library of Philadelphia:

https://libwww.freelibrary.org/digital/item/21232

Click on the photo to enlarge it.

Caption: "Carloads by the Package. Chicago, Illinois. Bobo the Hobo is going to have to figure out a new angle with the new "package" railroad freight container (above) just inaugurated, for it may make comfy  box cars a thing of the past. Freight is packed in novel aluminum "boxes" and can be moved anywhere on earth without unloading. It's shifted from trailer truck to flatcar in three minutes by means of built-in hydraulic jacks and ball-bearing rollers. It's a cheaper, quicker method, easily adaptable to transcontinental hauls, say the manufacturers. April, 23rd, 1946.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Re: Modeling Those WLE SS cars w/7-ft doors

Ray Breyer
 

The ends I showed yesterday are no longer available to print on Shapeways, but they were. Remember that it's up to the individual artist as to what's offered for review or purchase on that site, not Shapeways itself. Things come and go frequently.

I just asked the designer if he's interested in producing either the W&LE or PM cars, or both.

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL


On Tuesday, September 4, 2018, 9:42:17 AM CDT, bigfourroad <vannessco@...> wrote:


As a first step I went to Shapeways and searched for the Vulcan ends, no luck but lots of other ends there. McKeen Car produces Van Dorn target ends. Yuma Shops produces an SAL car and several styles of NKP and PM ends both convex and concave corrugations. As a general principle if the designer designed with prototype dimensions then scaling is readily done. Also O and S scale designs can usually be downscaled to HO successfully. The reverse up from N is not as universally possible. Most designers seem to be willing to scale up or down if they have the time and see a demand.
Since an image of a design appeared here it is assumed it was printed somewhere. Shapeways doesn’t always sort and often people don’t name parts and tags comprehensively.
Chris Rooney



Re: Modeling Those WLE SS cars w/7-ft doors

bigfourroad
 

As a first step I went to Shapeways and searched for the Vulcan ends, no luck but lots of other ends there. McKeen Car produces Van Dorn target ends. Yuma Shops produces an SAL car and several styles of NKP and PM ends both convex and concave corrugations. As a general principle if the designer designed with prototype dimensions then scaling is readily done. Also O and S scale designs can usually be downscaled to HO successfully. The reverse up from N is not as universally possible. Most designers seem to be willing to scale up or down if they have the time and see a demand.
Since an image of a design appeared here it is assumed it was printed somewhere. Shapeways doesn’t always sort and often people don’t name parts and tags comprehensively.
Chris Rooney