Date   
Re: Apologies & priorities

Tom Madden <tgmadden@...>
 

Ben Hom wrote:

"We all look forward to your work to come on passenger car research - it's
the next great set of myths and urban legends that need to be smashed in the
hobby."

It's not "to come", Ben, it's already well underway. Those of you who aren't
on the Passenger Car List may like to take a look at
http://home.att.net/~tgmadden/Pullman_CCR_Text.htm

That link will take you to the Pullman database introductory page, and from
there to the database itself. There are over 2700 records in the database, a
number which will grow to 12,000 (more or less) over the next couple of
years as I process microfilms of the Newberry Library's collection of
Pullman Car Construction Records. The purpose is to give the modeler enough
information to accurately model and paint any Pullman-owned or operated HW
steel or LW passenger car at any stage of its life - the sort of information
members of this list seek for freight cars.

We now return you to your regular programming.

Tom M.

CRDX boxcar photos

hicksco2@...
 

Hello all:

I was finally able to post those photos of the CRDX (Chicago Freight
Car Leasing) boxcars at the Illinois Railway Museum. To reiterate, I
am working on trying to decipher the histories of these cars to more
accurately interpret them on display signs we will be creating for
these pieces of equipment. The photos are in the photo file for this
group; here is some of the information I obtained from the cars,
although I have temporarily misplaced the piece of paper on which I
recorded measurements such as interior dimensions.

Notes:
The side sills originally had cut-outs for the wheels. Some of these
cut-outs were welded over, and the side sills had an extra steel
strip welded along their bottom, at some point. This rebuild may
have been done by CFC; one of the stencils on the side of the car
is "CFC 8-73" which may be a rebuild date.

The cars have plug-doors, the measurements of which are 130" wide and
119" tall. It has been suggested that these were part of the rebuild.

The trucks have several things cast into them. They are ASF "Ride
Control" trucks. On the right side of the truck frames they have
cast into them:
"5 1/2x10" - obviously journal size
"PRR - V11988" - probably the side frame type
They also have a raised logo featuring a circle with a pinwheel
inside of it.

On the left side of the truck frame:
"AARB-195" - No idea
"6193E" - No idea

These data indicate that the trucks are PRR class 2D-F__. They may
be 2D-F19A, but this is conjecture.

Any input, or even speculation, as to the history of these cars is
greatly appreciated.

BTW, thanks to everyone who responded to my previous post with kind
words. I didn't realize that I was coming across as anonymous, and I
also didn't realize that I had identified myself so poorly.

Respectfully yours,

Frank Hicks
Illinois Railway Museum, Union, Illinois

Re: CRDX boxcar photos

Jeff Aley - GCD PE <jaley@...>
 

On Sep 6, 11:48pm, hicksco2@... wrote:
Subject: [STMFC] CRDX boxcar photos
Hello all:

The photos are in the photo file for this
group;
For those who aren't YahooGroups savvy, a direct URL is
http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/STMFC/lst

If there are any non-Yahoo members (such as Richard) who would like a copy
of the pictures emailed directly to them, please let me know.

Regards,

-Jeff
[Co-Moderator of STMFC]

--
Jeff Aley jaley@...
DPG Chipsets Product Engineering
Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA
(916) 356-3533

Re: Canadian Freight Cars in The U.S.

Earl Tuson
 

Quite a different situation from these other examples would be the last month
and a half of operation on the Suncook Valley in 1952. Of some 97 cars
interchanged, <28> were from Canadian roads. This was primarily due to the
large amounts of inbound lumber to two shook mills online, and to the feed
destined for local poultry growers. These cars were primarily sent back
unloaded, although two were destined for Stockport, NY, with woodchips, while a
few others hauled out small amounts of LCL.

Earl Tuson

From: "Dave & Libby Nelson" <muskoka@...>

FWIW, of the 3006 individual cars I've got recorded... only 14 are Canadian.
From: Clark Propst <cepropst@...>

...M&StL ... list for 48,49,50 has 1331 ... 9 are CN cars ... 6 CP cars,
The Fairfax MN seal book has 833 entries. 6 ... CN, ...3 CP
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Re: Canadian Freight Cars in The U.S.

thompson@...
 

Bill Daniels wrote:
They are usually called pulp logs or pulp wood.
Either way, that's what they are. If I recall they are
pretty much torn up in the mill until they are a true pulp.
Right. Otherwise you get lumpy paper.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 http://www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroads and on Western history

Re: Balancing the roster - boxcars in the SE

Earl Tuson
 

Yes, but those cars were <surplus.> That is in part why they were scrapped.
Due to the Depression, most of those cars had probably not turned a wheel for
several years. Tim Gilbert has shared info with me regarding B&M home cars on
line (among a lot else) and although I can't put my hands on those papers right
now, my memory is kicking out numbers around 2/3 of cars online in the depths
of the Depression were home road. So... modelers should NOT use ORER overall
car ratios to determine car mixes for Depression era layouts. The cars that
would be interchanged would have been the ones requiring NO repairs.

And your yard should be stuffed with old home road 36 footers going nowhere
fast.

Except the scrapyard, of course.

Earl Tuson

From: "aidrian.bridgeman-sutton" <aidrian.bridgeman-sutton@...>

More interestingly from my point of view there were still more than 23,000
cars in 1935. Given those sorts of numbers, I think I need a few of these,
which should make Al Westerfield's bank manager happy.

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more Propst photos

John Nehrich <nehrij@...>
 

I've posted another 26 photos from the Clark Propst collection on our web
site:

http://www.union.rpi.edu/railroad/index.html

(A couple are duplicates, but I need to make sure. I haven't done much in
the way of captions, but at least the photos are there.)

- John

Re: Canadian Freight Cars in The U.S.

Tim Gilbert <timgilbert17851@...>
 

Bill,
> I recall seeing
pulp
wood flats and gons that carry pulp logs back in the
old
days when I used to live in Michigan.
In New England, boxcars were the prime carriers of
pulpwood until the mid-1950's. Also used were
roofless, otherwise obsolete Boxcars. The B&M's pulp
racks resembled an open-roofed stock car crammed
inside a steel gondola, but these were gone by 1949.
Stock Cars were also used - indeed, the ORER
description of the MEC #54000-54014 and #55301-55500
series was "SM - Stock, or Wood & Lumber Racks."

Tim Gilbert

Tim Gilbert


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Re: more Propst photos

Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
 

At 09:45 PM 9/6/01 -0400, you wrote:
I've posted another 26 photos from the Clark Propst collection on our web
site:
Thanks John. Can anyone identify the brand of farm tractors?? They
look a little bit like "Cockshutt" brand, for which a fellow in Canada
was selling resin models a while back...

http://www.union.rpi.edu/railroad/images/rolling-stock/Propst's-photos/milwnswreck-s-6305-sdm.jpg


Timothy O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
Sterling, Massachusetts

Excellent MP photo

Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
 

The flat in this photo is the closest thing I've seen to a prototype
for the Athearn "50 foot" flat car kit. What a great shot, taken in 1958!

http://www.union.rpi.edu/railroad/images/rolling-stock/Propst's-photos/mp9166-5812-sdm.jpg

Timothy O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
Sterling, Massachusetts

Re: Clark's photos

Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
 

John says this is black, but I think it is a dark green car.

http://www.union.rpi.edu/railroad/images/rolling-stock/Propst's-photos/ri-wif246-6103-sdm.jpg

Timothy O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
Sterling, Massachusetts

AD&N box

Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
 

John thinks this is a 1937 [sic] AAR boxcar, but the more I look
the weirder it gets -- the roof appears to be flat for example. But
more interesting is the rivet/panel pattern on the sides -- they seem
to be irregular, more like a 1923 ARA than the 1940 AAR.

http://www.union.rpi.edu/railroad/images/rolling-stock/Propst's-photos/ri-adn1474-7009-sdm.jpg

Timothy O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
Sterling, Massachusetts

Re: AD&N box

Benjamin Hom <bhom3@...>
 

Tim O'Connor astutely observed concerning ADN 1474
(http://www.union.rpi.edu/railroad/images/rolling-stock/Propst's-photos/ri-a
dn1474-7009-sdm.jpg):

John thinks this is a 1937 [sic] AAR boxcar, but the more I look the weirder
it gets -- the roof appears to be flat for example. But more interesting is
the rivet/panel pattern on the sides -- they seem to be irregular, more like
a 1923 ARA than the 1940 AAR.


Good call, Tim - this appears to be an ex-PRR Class X37 boxcar, which was
basically Pennsy's proprietary version of the 1937 AAR design - 5/5
Dreadnaught ends, but with the following unusual "Standard Railroad of
Altoona" features: flat panel roof with depressed panels at either end to
accommodate the lateral running boards; 10 panel sides, with narrow panels
on
either side of the door and the odd rivet pattern you noted (not ACR as I
asserted in a previous post on Class X37 a while back - an unfortunate
consequence of rectal-cranial inversion); a unique looking side sill, with
the "tabs" at the bolsters longer than that seen on "normal" 1937 AAR
boxcars; "X29" ladders with a bracket grab above hopper-like sill step; 7 ft
door; and Pennsy freight car trucks.

Of course, this means that every Athearn and MDC shake the box 1937 AAR
boxcar kits decorated for Pennsy are wrong - to quote Captain Renault from
Casablanca, "I'm shocked - shocked to find out that there's gambling here."


Ben Hom

Re: more Propst photos

Roger J Miener <Roger.Miener@...>
 

Tim O'Connor wants to know about "Cockshutt" farm tractors that may,
or may not, be loaded aboard a flat car in this scene. Me, my
attention went to the roof rail parallel to the roof edge and adjacent
to the ice hatch on the Armour reefer. I have seen this detail on ART
reefers, but never on any others. What I see here may not be new to
others, but it is new to me. Hendrickson, help me out here. Is the
Armour reefer with reporting marks TRAX 12377 a former ART job - or
what?

http://www.union.rpi.edu/railroad/images/rolling-stock/Propst's-photos
/milwnswreck-s-6305-sdm.jpg


Roger Miener
at Tacoma WA

Re: AD&N box

Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...>
 

Tim,

I dunno. I've seen something like those bolster tabs somewhere, but I
can't place them right now. Maybe PSSC? The closeness of the top rib to
the roofline suggest this car might be less than 10' 6" IH. Also that
looks like an 8' door, probably a rebuild if you consider the narrow
width of the panels on either side. Definitely a treasure!

The AD&N was notorious for picking up weird small lots of old boxcars,
including lots of ex-PRR round-roofs.

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff



Tim O'Connor wrote:


John thinks this is a 1937 [sic] AAR boxcar, but the more I look
the weirder it gets -- the roof appears to be flat for example. But
more interesting is the rivet/panel pattern on the sides -- they seem
to be irregular, more like a 1923 ARA than the 1940 AAR.

http://www.union.rpi.edu/railroad/images/rolling-stock/Propst's-photos/ri-adn1474-7009-sdm.jpg

Timothy O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
Sterling, Massachusetts


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Re: Balancing the roster - boxcars in the SE

aidrian.bridgeman-sutton <aidrian.bridgeman-sutton@...>
 

Aaargh! <slaps own head, hard>

Hit me with the bleeding obvious, why don't you? An ORER listing doesn't
necessarily mean that they were in service at times of a car surplus. So
that 9 percent wood cars may include say 70%-80% which were sitting idle
waiting for repairs (or scrapping). For the XL that proportion might have
been up towards 90%.

That brings the proportion needed in trains down significantly, thought as
you note there's a possible requirement for out of service cars as scenery
around the yard. I wonder what the source of the data on the RPI site for
1936 was?

Thanks.

Aidrian

----- Original Message -----
From: "Earl Tuson" <etuson@...>

snipped
So... modelers should NOT use ORER overall
car ratios to determine car mixes for Depression era layouts. The cars
that
would be interchanged would have been the ones requiring NO repairs.

And your yard should be stuffed with old home road 36 footers going
nowhere
fast.

Re: Canadian Freight Cars in The U.S.

BillJewett@...
 

forest products: 1) Canadian-sourced
raw material* bound for US paper mills (both east and westbound,
believe it or not), 2) Canadian-made paper bound for US
consumption, 3) Canadian lumber bound for US consumption.
* variously listed as "pulp," "pulp wood" and "wood pulp." Can
anyone explain the difference among these? Also, what are "grd
wood," "grd board," "gd wood," "gwd wood" or "gwd paper"?>>

"Pulpwood" gets ground up, chemicals and heat added to make
"Wood pulp," a soft, damp blanket-like material which is sometimes shipped to
other mills. It is repulped (liquified again) and put on the paper machines
to make
"groundwood paper" or "groundwood paperboard," as distinct (for ratemaking
purposes) from paper products made from recycled material, rags, etc; in
other words, "new" or "virgin" paper.

is there a tariff distinction between "pulp" and
"wood pulp," or was the clerk simply being inconsistent with his
entries?
I also neglected to mention 124 cars of "pulpboard" which is
clearly what we also call "chip board" or "particle board."
Consignees were mainly lumber companies or mfrs of low-end
furniture>>

"Pulp" and "wood pulp" are most likely the same thing in the shipments you
saw. While I suppose there is such a thing as non-wood pulp I doubt it sees
much shipment between mills. However, "pulpboard" is a paper product, not a
"lumber" product. It's often called "corrugating medium," ie the stuff
cardboard boxes are made of.

Bill
Operations SIG

Re: Canadian Freight Cars in The U.S.

Jeff English
 

Obviously, my previous post regarding the distinctions between
"pulp", "wood pulp" and "pulp wood" didn't get interpreted the way I
intended. The question is whether these were distinguished under
the tariffs and therefore treated differently, and how the economics
drove the decision to ship it as unpulped wood or pulp it first and
then ship. Moreover, is there a tariff distinction between "pulp" and
"wood pulp", or was the clerk simply being inconsistent with his
entries?
I also neglected to mention 124 cars of "pulpboard" which is
clearly what we also call "chip board" or "particle board".
Consignees were mainly lumber companies or mfrs of low-end
furniture
Somebody mentioned small quantities of pulp being bought by
specialty manufacturers such as Strathmore. I can assure you
that the majority of the pulp being shipped over the Rutland in 1961
was consigned to the mega-plants of the day in New England,
particularly St Regis Paper in both Bucksport, Maine, and East
Pepperell, Mass. The Rutland also carried the finished product
from the same plants going to west to such "fine, specialty"
customers as R. R. Donnelley (printers of the Sears catalog among
other things). That being said, Strathmore themselves were indeed
among the receivers of pulp in this database, but only in minor
proportion.
This pulp traffic moved entirely in general-service box cars, not
open-roofed.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Jeff English Troy, New York
Proto:64 Classic Era Railroad Modeling
englij@...

| R U T L A N D R A I L R O A D |
Route of the Whippet
---------------------------------------------------------------

Re: Canadian Freight Cars in The U.S.

Dave & Libby Nelson <muskoka@...>
 

-----Original Message-----
From: Dave & Libby Nelson [mailto:muskoka@...]
-----Original Message-----
From: Tim O'Connor [mailto:timoconnor@...]
I remain skeptically yours...
Bureau of mines says about 225,000 tons of Aluminum were imported from
Canada in 1950, so obviously there is some filter that the ICC used when
counting rail shipments from Canada that I don't know about. I'll have to
go back to the library and find the original ICC report and read any notes
(which is to say it may take months before I can report back).

Dave Nelson
Tim Gilbert reports to me the footnotes for Canadian data include: "Figures
represent carload
tonnage handled by class I railways of the United States that operate
mileage in Canada." This should explain why the data I shared was small --
it appears the ICC excluded anything brought across the border by either the
CP or CN. It also raises the question of where did the ICC begin to track
that tonnage? I would guess in the state where the Canadian road turned
over the car to a U.S. carrier.

Canada had something similar to the ICC's Bureau of Statistics -- I have
access to some small portion of their reports and Tim Gilbert says he knows
of a fellow who has much more so perhaps at some future date the full
tonnage figures will be discovered and made available here.

Dave Nelson

Re: Canadian Freight Cars in The U.S.

Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
 

Tim Gilbert reports to me the footnotes for Canadian data include: "Figures
represent carload tonnage handled by class I railways of the United States
that operate mileage in Canada."
Interesting. This would completely eliminate some international interchange
points from these statistics, since they were located exactly AT the border.
One such point was the Spokane International (UP) interchange with the CP
on the border between Washington and British Columbia. Also, the SOO and CP
interchanged on North Dakota's border at Portal (?). I think the GN may have
ran over its own tracks to Winnipeg, but I'm not sure about its line to
Vancouver BC. The bridge at Sault Ste Marie connected SOO (DSS&A?) to CP,
but I'm not sure whose trains ran which way across the border -- maybe that
would eliminate this interchange from the statistics too. Let's see, the CN
tunnel at Sarnia ONT carried large quantities of traffic to the GTW in
Michigan... it was a CN operation so I guess that gets eliminated. Did the
NYC actually operate as such in Ontario or was it technically a Canadian
operation (Canada Southern?). And who owned/operated the bridge at Niagara
Falls?


Timothy O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
Sterling, Massachusetts