Date   
Re: Meat Packing Question

Dave & Libby Nelson <muskoka@...>
 

Well on the assumption it shipped to it's owners distribution houses,
virtually any city east of Denver and many west had a Swift's. Can't say I
recall ever seeing one called Decker & Sons either....

Dave Nelson

-----Original Message-----
From: Douglas Harding [mailto:dharding@...]
Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 7:38 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Meat Packing Question


As my Jacob E. Decker & Son's Meat Packing plant is going on line at the
next op session, I need to produce waybills. Does anyone know
where all the
meat from the meat packing plants of the midwest went? I am looking for
specific names of receivers, companies, distributers, etc for placement on
waybills. Ideally I would like the names Decker's shipped too, but general
receivers of meat refeers will do. For those who don't know Decker's was
owned by Armour and was on the M&StL in Mason City, Iowa and I
model 1949 so
receivers of the late 40's would be best.

Doug Harding




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Re: Meat Packing Question

billd@...
 

I can't speak for 1949 (I was around then...at lesst for
half the year!) but Decker still exists as a brand name...I
see their products here in Southern Arizona all the time.

Bill Daniels
Tucson, AZ

On Thu, 1 Nov 2001 21:38:21 -0600
"Douglas Harding" <dharding@...> wrote:
As my Jacob E. Decker & Son's Meat Packing plant is going
on line at the
next op session, I need to produce waybills. Does anyone
know where all the
meat from the meat packing plants of the midwest went? I
am looking for
specific names of receivers, companies, distributers, etc
for placement on
waybills. Ideally I would like the names Decker's shipped
too, but general
receivers of meat refeers will do. For those who don't
know Decker's was
owned by Armour and was on the M&StL in Mason City, Iowa
and I model 1949 so
receivers of the late 40's would be best.

Doug Harding




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Re: Meat Packing Question

ted_culotta@...
 

Doug:

For your era, the New Haven served an Armour facility across the
tracks from the Hartford station. The facility received the
carcasses (I think they're called 'dressed', but what I know about
meat packing is smaller than this posting) in reefers and
processed the meat into specific products for local
consumption. So you can send one of those reefers my way and
I'll handle it for you. You just have to wait for me to actually get
around to building the layout. I can even post a scan of the
facility if anyone's at all interested.

Ted Culotta

Re: Meat Packing Question

Tom Gloger
 

--- Douglas Harding <dharding@...> wrote:
As my Jacob E. Decker & Son's Meat Packing plant is going
on line at the next op session, I need to produce waybills.
Does anyone know where all the meat from the meat packing
plants of the midwest went?
According to Charles C. Colby's "Economic Geography" (1940
edition) packing houses with a nation-wide business employed
two methods of selling. Most was sold through branch houses,
to which meat was shipped in carload lot. The other method
was "car routes," in which a salesman from a packing center
(or branch house) solicited orders in towns along a railroad
leading out from his city. The orders were filled from a
reefer dispatched over the same route once or twice a week.

I don't know whether the reefer was set out at each town or
the train waited while the meat was unloaded. Anyone know
how this was handled?

Oh, don't forget to ship those by-products: hides, bones, hair,
etc. Especially the etc.


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Re: Meat Packing Question

Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...>
 

Tom,

No, they didn't ship the etc. That went into hot dogs, luncheon meat and
Spam-like products. Ymmm. :~)

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff

Tom Gloger wrote:

... Oh, don't forget to ship those by-products: hides, bones, hair,
etc. Especially the etc.

Meat Packers

Douglas Harding <dharding@...>
 

What I have learned so far in response to my question on meat packers is:
First to up date those who don't know Jacob E. Decker & Sons was based in
Mason City, Iowa. It was bought by Armour in 1935, but operated under the
Decker name into the 70's. Everyone called it Deckers. Most Decker Meat went
to the IC at Ackley, while some went to the CGW at Marshalltown, to head
east to or through Chicago. It is possible some went as far as Albia to go
via Wabash to St Louis and beyond. But with the meat packers in Ottumwa,
Kansas, City, etc. I doubt much went this direction.

An article by Martin Lofton on Meat Reefers, first presented at the NMRA
national in Columbus in 92, and published by the NMRA in their Symposium on
Railroad History series and White's book The Great Yellow Fleet are two
resources with much information. Also John Nehrich has a lot of offer on
meat reefers, etc at
http://www.union.rpi.edu/railroad/images/rolling-stock/Kits/Kit-Guide.html
And a good source for info on Deckers is
http://www.eldora.net/lyndon/towns/masoncity_operations.html with most of
the info provided by Clark Probst.

It appears that most packers (the large ones ie Swift, Armour, etc.) had
multiple facilities, meat preparation and cold storage for example around
the country, east coast and west coast. So meat from say Swift in
Marshalltown would go to Swift in Chicago or New York, or wherever Swift had
a distribution facility. Here it might be further processed, beef quarters
cut down to pieces of meat, or it was distributed to local meat markets and
butchers, etc. I know if go out east you will little butcher shops on every
corner. They had to get the meat from somewhere.

The story about the NJ butchers reminded me of when I lived in NJ in 79-82,
we got lousy meat at the grocery store. The only good beef was a local
butcher shop that sold Black Angus meat, at premium prices, far above what
this student could afford. Then it all changed. Suddenly the meat was good
(like home, I'm from Iowa) and cheap. I then learned of the farm crisis of
the early 80's, farmers were selling off beef herds at losses. No longer was
the local grocery selling Argentina grass fed beef, but was now stocking
Iowa corn fed beef. Our gain was the farmer's loss.

Some meat when directly to large grocery distributors: ie Nash-Finch, A&P,
Safeway, etc.

I have seen on reference to Deckers also being in Chicago, so it is possible
Decker Meat in Mason City shipped to a Decker's facility in Chicago. Can
anyone verify this?

Doug Harding

Re: Meat Packing Question

Clark Propst <cepropst@...>
 

Doug, I have three items for you.

I talked to two x Armour employees today. One was in shipping, but the trucking
side. By the late 60's Armour was selling to major grocery chains. The other guy
told me of a Armour distribution center at St. Jo MO. we can assume that the
cars handed over to the CGW at Marshalltown would have gone to that facility.
I've been told before that this was less than five cars a day.

Some pre-war trivia. The CGW would run a turn out of Oelwein IA to Hampton IA
every day to meet the EB (actually heading south) M&StL meat train around noon.
This meat would be delivered to Chicago. The CGW turn would often break in
rebuilt steamers fresh out of the Oelwein shops. I have two photos of the M&StL
trains taken by a CGW trainman.

There is plenty of photo evidence showing Armour cars in the Milw yard at Mason
City IA. I think I have a slide with a car on the MC&CL transfer. The M&StL set
out list has the ARLX 11191 set out from time freight 96 at Hartland MN on
5-12-49 and ARLX 1955 set out by time freight 2 at Gifford IA on 6-12-59. The
largest percentage by far went to the IC at Ackley IA for Chicago.

Clark

Douglas Harding wrote:

As my Jacob E. Decker & Son's Meat Packing plant is going on line at the
next op session, I need to produce waybills. Does anyone know where all the
meat from the meat packing plants of the midwest went? I am looking for
specific names of receivers, companies, distributers, etc for placement on
waybills. Ideally I would like the names Decker's shipped too, but general
receivers of meat refeers will do. For those who don't know Decker's was
owned by Armour and was on the M&StL in Mason City, Iowa and I model 1949 so
receivers of the late 40's would be best.

Doug Harding

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Re: Meat Packing Question

nehrij@...
 

On Sat, 03 Nov 2001 19:13:05 -0700 billd@... wrote:

Oh, one more thing...meat reefers usually were 36' and not
40' in length...and Red Caboose makes a good one...
Yes, but the Red Caboose reefer is NOT useful for a Swift or Armour car.
Try Sunshine Models. - John



Bill

On Sat, 3 Nov 2001 17:12:21 -0600
"Douglas Harding" <dharding@...> wrote:
Great info, thanks everyone. I am learning that the
Packers had processing
plants all around the country. These are the places where
the dressed beef
became steaks and roasts and the "etc" became hot dogs an
so forth.

Now, what is on the HO market for vintage 40's meat
reefers? Beside the MDC
36 footer? I need Armour and Swift cars for two packing
plants on my layout.

Doug Harding



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Meat Packing Question

Douglas Harding <dharding@...>
 

Great info, thanks everyone. I am learning that the Packers had processing
plants all around the country. These are the places where the dressed beef
became steaks and roasts and the "etc" became hot dogs an so forth.

Now, what is on the HO market for vintage 40's meat reefers? Beside the MDC
36 footer? I need Armour and Swift cars for two packing plants on my layout.

Doug Harding

Re: Meat Packing Question

charles slater
 

Sunshine Models offers all kinds of meet refers in HO scale kits, you can contact them at PO box 4997 Springfield, Mo. 65808-4997


From: "Douglas Harding" <dharding@...>
Reply-To: STMFC@...
To: <STMFC@...>
Subject: [STMFC] Meat Packing Question
Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 17:12:21 -0600

Great info, thanks everyone. I am learning that the Packers had processing
plants all around the country. These are the places where the dressed beef
became steaks and roasts and the "etc" became hot dogs an so forth.

Now, what is on the HO market for vintage 40's meat reefers? Beside the MDC
36 footer? I need Armour and Swift cars for two packing plants on my layout.

Doug Harding




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STMFC-unsubscribe@...



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Re: Meat Packing Question

billd@...
 

Actually, the "etc" usually did not become hot dogs and
spam...hot dogs were usually made from decent cuts...at
least good hot dogs are (such as Vienna Beef). Cheaper dogs
are made from a combination of beef, pork and chicken.

Spam, on the other hand, is not made from beef...according
to Hormel (who makes it and should know) it is made from
pork shoulder...again not a "garbage" cut.

Not to say that there are some bargain buy dogs that are
made from otherwise undesirable (to Americans) cuts...but as
they say, beef is beef...

Bill Daniels
Tucson, AZ

On Sat, 3 Nov 2001 17:12:21 -0600
"Douglas Harding" <dharding@...> wrote:
Great info, thanks everyone. I am learning that the
Packers had processing
plants all around the country. These are the places where
the dressed beef
became steaks and roasts and the "etc" became hot dogs an
so forth.

Now, what is on the HO market for vintage 40's meat
reefers? Beside the MDC
36 footer? I need Armour and Swift cars for two packing
plants on my layout.

Doug Harding



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Re: Meat Packing Question

billd@...
 

Oh, one more thing...meat reefers usually were 36' and not
40' in length...and Red Caboose makes a good one...

Bill

On Sat, 3 Nov 2001 17:12:21 -0600
"Douglas Harding" <dharding@...> wrote:
Great info, thanks everyone. I am learning that the
Packers had processing
plants all around the country. These are the places where
the dressed beef
became steaks and roasts and the "etc" became hot dogs an
so forth.

Now, what is on the HO market for vintage 40's meat
reefers? Beside the MDC
36 footer? I need Armour and Swift cars for two packing
plants on my layout.

Doug Harding



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Re: Meat Packing Question

Dave & Libby Nelson <muskoka@...>
 

-----Original Message-----
From: billd@... [mailto:billd@...]
Not to say that there are some bargain buy dogs that are
made from otherwise undesirable (to Americans) cuts...but as
they say, beef is beef...
I have a book here that describes everything obtained from beef cattle,
including something called "hanging tenderloin". I don't think I really
want to know....

Dave Nelson

refrigerated tank car?

BillJewett@...
 

In the Oct 58 Trains an article "Meat Train" on the IC mentioned the train
from Council Bluffs included "a glass-lined, refrigerated tank car of animal
blood for a Chicago laboratory."

Would this car have been actively refrigerated, or do they just mean
insulated, or maybe with brine cooling coils? If really refrigerated, what
would the mechanism have been and would it be externally visible?

Bill
Operations SIG

Re: refrigerated tank car?

John Nehrich <nehrij@...>
 

Sounds like an ex-GPEX-type milk tank car, which did NOT have any
refrigeration, etc. The milk was pre-cooled and only gained a degree or two
over the course of a day's journey, due to the large volume, amount of
insulation. - John

----- Original Message -----
From: <BillJewett@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2001 1:37 PM
Subject: [STMFC] refrigerated tank car?


In the Oct 58 Trains an article "Meat Train" on the IC mentioned the train
from Council Bluffs included "a glass-lined, refrigerated tank car of
animal
blood for a Chicago laboratory."

Would this car have been actively refrigerated, or do they just mean
insulated, or maybe with brine cooling coils? If really refrigerated,
what
would the mechanism have been and would it be externally visible?

Bill
Operations SIG






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Re: refrigerated tank car?

thompson@...
 

Bill Jewett asked:
In the Oct 58 Trains an article "Meat Train" on the IC mentioned the train
from Council Bluffs included "a glass-lined, refrigerated tank car of animal
blood for a Chicago laboratory."
Would this car have been actively refrigerated, or do they just mean
insulated, or maybe with brine cooling coils? If really refrigerated, what
would the mechanism have been and would it be externally visible?
Bill, I think John Nehrich's answer was probably right. I would doubt
this was 10,000 gallons of cargo, more likely a few thousand at most. The
internal tanks in most AAR-classified tanks in internal carbody
arrangements were of the order of 1000 gallons per tank.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 http://www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroads and on Western history

Re: Mathers Armour reefers

nehrij@...
 

The Armour reefers leased from Mather as rebuilt with steel ends were 40
foot cars and these were c. '54 or so. Unfortunately, the Red Caboose 38
foot kit is not accurate for Armour.
And the MDC Armour kit has the herald all screwed up. (We need some
Armour reefers for our layout, so we've struggled with this issue, too.)
MDC did the herald in bright red, which should be a maroon or dark brown,
so for contrast, they were forced to make the star gold - it should be
bright red. And you can't dry transfer over the herald with the Clover
House set, which makes the herald black, but at least the herald could be
bright red, since MDC made the herald a little too big. Right now our
thought is to use a fine tip felt tip pen with brown or maroon and recolor
the herald, and then decal on the star. (There is a great Gerrit Bruins
color photo of a typical wood Armour reefer on the MDC section of our web
site, which shows what the scheme should be and I will post what MDC did
when I get a chance.)
Armour also had some 40 foot steel reefers c. '48, with "dartnaught
ends". I guess use the Walthers ends from their belt rail reefer with the
Athearn or InterMountain steel sides and roof. But I'm wondering if 40
foot reefers were used mainly for by-products, not the meat itself. I
still think the shorter meat reefer was more due to problems of cooling
with ice and salt the greater volume in a 40 foot car. (I've also heard
that the packing plant equipment was spaced for shorter cars, but the
minute they went to mechanical reefers, the car lenghts shot up to 40 and
even 50.) (Either reason or both doesn't really matter - I still think you
probably need a lot of shorter cars for the meats themselves.) - John

On Sun, 04 Nov 2001 16:52:21 -0600 Clark Propst wrote:

Doug is still stuck with 36' MDC reefers if he needs alot of Armour
and Swift cars from the late 40's. I know he needs aleast 30 Armour
reefers! Red Caboose does a bunch of Mathers meat reefers. One of which
is lettered for Armour. I know Armour leased these cars after they were
rebuilt with steel ends, but did they have them before then? Like the
Red Caboose kit?
Clark


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Cocoa Beach Prototype Rails

ThisIsR@...
 

Hello:
Can anyone tell me about the Prototype Rails meet coming up in
January in Cocoa Beach, Florida? Is there a website? Thanks!

Richard Stallworth

Barber S-2 trucks

Clark Propst <cepropst@...>
 

Can any of you fine gentleman tell me who sells Barber S-2 trucks in HO
scale. Thanks,
Clark

Barber S-2 trucks

Clark Propst <cepropst@...>
 

Can any of you fine gentleman tell me who sells Barber S-2 trucks in HO
scale. Thanks,
Clark