Date   
Re: War Emergency Hoppers

ibs4421@...
 

Shawn,
Hoppers in coal service, by and large, are somewhat captive, but
not always so. Steve Johnson, my L&N/NC&StL/TC Sensei, and I were
discussing this one day. I had bought a set of TC hoppers and was wondering
just how much they would have been seen on L&N and NC&StL rails. Steve
provided me with a list of railroads that he had records for the TC hoppers
being interchanged with, it was quite extensive considering! Steve has
collected a lot of photos of freight cars over the years, and told me he had
one for an L&N twin bay hopper in Calif., and two Reading hoppers in an L&N
coal drag.
I'm a person that advocates reproducing/replicating the commonplace, not
the exception. However, we often hear "there is a prototype for
everything", and to a degree it's true. I plan on one day modleing an early
50's L&N coal drag of 50+ hoppers. the great majority of those cars will be
L&N, but a few NC&StL and TC hoppers will be seen, and there might just be
ONE oddball in the crowd. This, I think, is reasonable.

Warren
"This train goes down the Memphis Line!"

I hate to ask a neophyte question, but how far would
these hoppers have traveled in interchange? I've just
assumed, judging by who owned these cars, that they
were in coal service, and therefore captive on home
rails. But I don't really know for sure, therefore the
question. Would these cars have traveled far from home?

Shawn Beckert

Re: War Emergency Hoppers

Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. <smithbf@...>
 

Shawn wrote:

I hate to ask a neophyte question, but how far would
these hoppers have traveled in interchange? I've just
assumed, judging by who owned these cars, that they
were in coal service, and therefore captive on home
rails.
At the risk of starting a fire where none is needed ;^) I'm not sure that
your last statement is all that accurate...after all, if N&W hoppers made
it as far as SHerman Hill...<duck>

Really, although I would expect a higher percentage on "home rails" I would
not term these cars "captive". I would expect to see C&O and B&O cars on
the PRR for example, and yes, there are plenty of photos of N&W cars on the
PRR (and not just through trains of hoppers). However, one thing to
consider is that these cars probably do not represent major classes for
most of these roads and therefore should be outnumbered by memebers of the
major classes by a significant margin.

Happy Rails
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.
Scott-Ritchey Research Center
334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin
__
/ &#92;
__<+--+>________________&#92;__/___ ____________________________________
|- ______/ O O &#92;_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ |
| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 &#92; | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
|/_____________________________&#92;|_|____________________________________|
| O--O &#92;0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0

Re: War Emergency Hoppers

ibs4421@...
 

Yeah, what Ted said!

Warren
Dreaming one day of modeling the Paris Shops on the Memphis Line

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ted Culotta" <ted@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Monday, January 22, 2001 4:21 PM
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: War Emergency Hoppers


I can only comment on the Eastern cars (L&N, B&O, C&O, etc.), but, in
general, the large bituminous coal carrying roads of the Eastern US used
their cars in basically captive service. If you look at any photos of
coal
drags from the B&O, C&O, L&N, N&W, VGN, they are long strings of cars only
from those roads with a VERY rare off-road hopper in the mix (for example
an
N&W hopper drag contains only N&W cars, with maybe one VGN or C&O car
mixed
in - modelers who put an N&W loco followed by hoppers from a number of
different roads are usually modeling a fictitious scene). These cars
were
either to serve on line customers or to move coal to bulk shipment points
(the N&W loaded coal onto ocean freighters at Norfolk, VA and points on
the
Great Lakes via other roads' rails - these cars would then almost always
be
promptly returned to the N&W to go back to the mines). Some of these cars
would make it off line to other roads' rails, such as in the Northeast,
but
the Anthracite roads' (CNJ, RDG, Erie, D&H, LV, LNE) cars were more
commonly
seen offline in the Eastern US than their bituminous carrying cousins.

Richard and others will have to help you with the Western cars, although
comparatively, there were few hoppers west of Chicago.

-----Original Message-----
From: Beckert, Shawn [mailto:shawn.beckert@...]
Sent: Monday, January 22, 2001 1:39 PM
To: 'STMFC@...'
Subject: [STMFC] Re: War Emergency Hoppers


Hello List,

I spent part of the weekend poring over Ed Hawkins'
article in RMJ concerning the War Emergency hoppers
as modeled recently by Life-Like. To my regret, most
of the photographs in the article don't give info as
to where they were taken.

I hate to ask a neophyte question, but how far would
these hoppers have traveled in interchange? I've just
assumed, judging by who owned these cars, that they
were in coal service, and therefore captive on home
rails. But I don't really know for sure, therefore the
question. Would these cars have traveled far from home?

Shawn Beckert

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
STMFC-unsubscribe@...







To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
STMFC-unsubscribe@...



Re: [PM-list] WofA PS-1 Model

Richard Hendrickson
 

Bruce Smith wrote:

A couple of years ago, I picked up a dry transfer set from Campbell Road (I
think) of S&A and A&WP (I believe) boxcars. The data sets led me to
believe that they were appropriate for 1937 40' AAR, 10'6" interior height
cars. Is this true? What did these roads have in this style? Any
additional guides/comments on color etc.
Bruce, as of 8/47 the S&A had no AAR steel box cars of any description,
though by 1950 they had acquired 50 cars numbered 8200-8249 which have the
dimensions of 10'6" IH AAR cars (but may also have been PS-1s - I can't
locate a photo of one).

The A&WP and WofA, on the other hand received a hundred 10'0" IH AAR steel
box cars from Pullman-Standard in 12-41, 60 of which became WofA
17300-17359 while the other 40 went the A&WP as their 37300-37339. These
cars had 4-5 W-corner-post Dreadnuaght ends, Murphy rectangular panel
roofs, Youngstown corrugated doors, Miner hand brakes, and AAR
self-aligning spring-plankless trucks. The A&WP also owned another 25 cars
of the same dimensions numbered 37500-37524, though I'm not sure when/where
they were built.

In September of 1947 another hundred steel box cars of AAR design, this
time with 10'6" IH, were delivered, 50 to the WofA as 17600-17649 and the
other 50 to the A&WP as 37600-37649. I don't know the builder on these,
but they had 4-4 Improved Dreadnaught ends, Murphy rectangular panel roofs,
postwar Youngstown corrugated doors, Ajax hand brakes, and ASF A-3 Ride
Control trucks.

When new, both the 1941 and 1947 cars were painted black with aluminum
sides, black doors, black paint behind the side ladders, and black
stenciling. In later years, they were mineral red with white stenciling.

I have photos of the WofA cars I could sca and send as JPEG files, if that
would be helpful.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520

Allen Stanley's Address

Richard Hendrickson
 

I recently wrote to Allen Stanley, the guy in South Carolina who has the
extensive collection of diagram books and similar material, and my letter
was returned stamped "insufficient address." I find this puzzling as the
address I used has worked in the past (though not recently). I have 4001
Pelham Road, Greer, SC 29650. Can anyone who's been in touch with him
recently provide a more recent/more detailed address that will work?
Thanks in advance.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520

Re: War Emergency Hoppers

Richard Hendrickson
 

Ted Culotta, after a very good and succinct summary of hopper car traffic
patterns (also usefully supplemented by Bruce Smith) wrote:

Richard and others will have to help you with the Western cars, although
comparatively, there were few hoppers west of Chicago.
In the case of the War Emergency hoppers, the only western road that had
them was the Santa Fe (the Burlington hardly qualifies as western, from the
perspective of a native westerner, as Denver and Cody, WY are only on the
extreme eastern edge of the true west). The Santa Fe used their WE hoppers
for coal service on the eastern part of the system and also for borate
service on the Mojave desert in Calif. In neither role did they go
off-line much; all the photos I have show them on Santa Fe rails except for
one Paul Dunn shot of a Ga-62 at Zanesville, OH. The Q cars were used
mostly in Illinois coal service, as were the Illinois Central's. So the
generalization that these cars didn't stray far from home rails applies out
west as well as on the eastern coal roads.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520

Re: [PM-list] WofA PS-1 Model

ibs4421@...
 

Richard,
This is really great info, would you mind if I forwarded your
post to the L&N RR list? there are some guys on there who I am sure would
find it interesting.

Warren "Whatshizname" Dickinson
At the end of the E&G Branch, L&N

Re: War Emergency Hoppers

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Say it isn't so, Joe...er, Shawn,

You write:

I've just
assumed, judging by who owned these cars, that they
were in coal service, and therefore captive on home
rails.
Oooooh no. I spent a month proving that coal bearing hopper cars not only
went off home rails, but did so frequently. I have then paid for this
eloquent enlightenment by finding N&W hopper cars showing up unexpectedly in
strange places on my Sherman Hill layout. Even in broad daylight. Here I go
again.

But I don't really know for sure, therefore the
question. Would these cars have traveled far from home?
Stepping boldly into the abyss....I'd say it depends largely on the RR. This
is much too complex to be properly covered right now, but let me address
only one example. No, not the N&W but, rather the coal fields of Southern
Illinois. A couple of quotes from a great book, Burlington Bulletin, #35,
The Q in the Coal Fields:

Pg 104
"Under the first...interchange...the Q received loaded coal cars from
another RR, and both..."
"The Q received considerable interchange coal tonnage at certain points
along the Beardstown Div. At Forman, deep in Southern Illinois, the Q
interchanged with the NYC..."Further north, at Goreville, was the
interchange with the CE&I. Back to the north at Waltonville, the Q
interchanged with the Missouri Pacific and received coal from..."

Other major interchange occurred with the IC. Photos show both B&O and
Pennsy hoppers at the mines along with Q cars and those of IC & C&EI. Q
trains include Mopac, C&EI, IC hoppers.

Mike Brock

Re: War Emergency Hoppers

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Ted Culotta writes:

I can only comment on the Eastern cars (L&N, B&O, C&O, etc.), but, in
general, the large bituminous coal carrying roads of the Eastern US used
their cars in basically captive service. If you look at any photos of
coal
drags from the B&O, C&O, L&N, N&W, VGN, they are long strings of cars only
from those roads with a VERY rare off-road hopper in the mix (for example
an
N&W hopper drag contains only N&W cars, with maybe one VGN or C&O car
mixed
in - modelers who put an N&W loco followed by hoppers from a number of
different roads are usually modeling a fictitious scene).
...Ooooh no, here we go again...Thompson and Hendrickson will be reaching
for more wine wondering if the TV might provide relief....Yes, trains would
contain mostly N&W cars, although I have noticed quite a few Clinchfield
cars coming out of Roanoke eastbound on video tapes. roads.

These cars were
either to serve on line customers or to move coal to bulk shipment points
(the N&W loaded coal onto ocean freighters at Norfolk, VA and points on
the
Great Lakes via other roads' rails -
Yes, but the largest...at least according to the Prince book...amount of
coal from the N&W went into the midwest...and, not on N&W tracks. Of 52
million tons of coal moved in '48, 22 million tons went west, 10 million
went to the Great Lakes, 10 million went through Lambert Point, and the rest
went into the South, VA, and DC areas. Of the 52 million, at least 30
million went off N&W rails.

these cars would then almost always be
promptly returned to the N&W to go back to the mines).
No doubt.

Some of these cars
would make it off line to other roads' rails, such as in the Northeast,
but
the Anthracite roads' (CNJ, RDG, Erie, D&H, LV, LNE) cars were more
commonly
seen offline in the Eastern US than their bituminous carrying cousins.
Yes, but those 32 million tons of coal traveling west and to the Great Lakes
did it on foreign tracks. The N&W might have been something of a "captive"
RR in that its coal trains consisted of...as you say...mostly N&W cars. But,
while few foreign coal carrying cars may have ventured onto N&W tracks, the
inverse is not true. N&W coal carrying cars requented foreign tracks often.

Anonymous

Re: [PM-list] WofA PS-1 Model

Richard Hendrickson
 

Richard,
This is really great info, would you mind if I forwarded your
post to the L&N RR list? there are some guys on there who I am sure would
find it interesting.
No problem, Warren. You're free to share anything I post. (If I'm making
it up out of whole cloth, I'll warn you in advance).

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520

The West

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Richard Hedrickson...noted geographer...writes:

the Burlington hardly qualifies as western, from the
perspective of a native westerner, as Denver and Cody, WY are only on the
extreme eastern edge of the true west).
I always suspected that that guy who once said, "The west starts at Fort
Worth" didn't know what he was talking about.

Mike Brock...now where'd I leave the key to the bunker?

Re: War Emergency Hoppers

Dave & Libby Nelson <muskoka@...>
 

-----Original Message-----
I can only comment on the Eastern cars (L&N, B&O, C&O, etc.), but, in
general, the large bituminous coal carrying roads of the Eastern US used
their cars in basically captive service.
Ted's is the safe answer. There were exceptions: I have a number of
Southern Rwy conductors books from the 40's & early 50's for the main east
out of Asheville, NC -- I've got a count of 191 SOU hoppers listed (mostly
in company service), but well more than 200 hoppers from 26 other roads
(including the NYC, MILW, B&M, Alton, C&NW, and MSL to cite the most
unexpected).

Toledo Ohio -- Lots of N&W cars, no N&W rails. Brewster, Ohio on the NKP --
plenty of N&W hoppers. Some evidence they got to the steel industry near
Chicago.

Soldier Summit in Utah: plenty of D&RGW coal gons, but cars in coal service
from the MP, UP, WP, CBC, and B&LE appear in photos and much of the Utah
coal went to the pacific coast. On occasion there were DMIR ore jennies in
Utah on the LA&SL (U.S. Steel moved their cars around).

Dave Nelson

Re: War Emergency Hoppers

Dave & Libby Nelson <muskoka@...>
 

these cars would then almost always be
promptly returned to the N&W to go back to the mines).
No doubt.
Yes doubt. The ICC would occasionally have to issue service orders
requiring all roads in possession of hoppers from the VGN, N&W, and INT to
return them on release from the consignee -- no other loading allowed.
Happened to D&RGW cars once too.

Dave Nelson

Re: War Emergency Hoppers

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Dave Nelson writes:

Ted's is the safe answer. There were exceptions: I have a number of
Southern Rwy conductors books from the 40's & early 50's for the main east
out of Asheville, NC -- I've got a count of 191 SOU hoppers listed (mostly
in company service), but well more than 200 hoppers from 26 other roads
(including the NYC, MILW, B&M, Alton, C&NW, and MSL to cite the most
unexpected).

Toledo Ohio -- Lots of N&W cars, no N&W rails. Brewster, Ohio on the
NKP --
plenty of N&W hoppers. Some evidence they got to the steel industry near
Chicago.

Soldier Summit in Utah: plenty of D&RGW coal gons, but cars in coal
service
from the MP, UP, WP, CBC, and B&LE appear in photos and much of the Utah
coal went to the pacific coast. On occasion there were DMIR ore jennies
in
Utah on the LA&SL (U.S. Steel moved their cars around).
Good stuff, Dave. I recall you mentioning the cars out of Asheville.

Mike

Re: Allen Stanley's Address

Al & Patricia Westerfield <westerfield@...>
 

Richard - That's the exact address I have. - Al
Westerfield

I recently wrote to Allen Stanley, the guy in South Carolina who has the
extensive collection of diagram books and similar material, and my letter
was returned stamped "insufficient address>

(No subject)

Dave & Libby Nelson <muskoka@...>
 

Anybody know (offhand) the story of this car?

http://gelwood.railfan.net/other/grr/ga2614as.jpg

-----------------------------------
Dave Nelson

Re: Allen Stanley's Address

Richard Hendrickson
 

Richard - That's the exact address I have. - Al
Westerfield
I recently wrote to Allen Stanley, the guy in South Carolina who has the
extensive collection of diagram books and similar material, and my letter
was returned stamped "insufficient address>
Guy Wilber advised that Allen also has an apartment number at that address
- apt. 239 - and apparently some USPS nitwit couldn't or wouldn't deliver
it without the apartment number. In contrast, the Ashland post office
phoned us the other day about a hopelessly mis-addressed letter after they
went to the trouble to look us up in the phone book. It's a crap shoot;
USPS service ranges from excellent to abysmal.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520

Re: War Emergency Hoppers

Shawn Beckert
 

Mike Brock, in the midst of an informative post, wrote:

Oooooh no. I spent a month proving that coal bearing
hopper cars not only went off home rails, but did so
frequently.
(Sigh). I'll have to get painfully specific here, which
I probably should have done in the first place. I model,
or am attempting to model, the St. Louis Southwestern as
it would have looked from roughly World War Two up until
the mid 1960's. From what I can tell from my sources of
information, the fixed plant of the railroad changed very
little in this period. Means I get to run 2-8-0's, FT's,
and if I feel frisky, GP-20's, all on the same layout. Not
all at the same time ,of course ;-)

My problem is nailing down the type of traffic that moved
on the Cotton Belt during these years. Since this was a
"bridge line" moving freight through the St. Louis gateway
to points West, I can get away with running all types of
cars, up to a point. What's hard is trying to pin down what
percentage of what kind of freight moved on the SSW. And one
of my problems is knowing how much coal - if any - they were
moving in my era of interest. I asked about the P2K hoppers
because I don't want to spend money on them if they wouldn't
normally be seen in Cotton Belt territory. Thus my question
to the List. Can anyone tell me with confidence that these
cars should not be represented on my railroad?

Shawn Beckert

Re: Allen Stanley's Address

Bill Schneider <branch@...>
 

I agree. I got one the other day marked "Branchline Trains-you guys
really should put your address in your ads-East Hartford, CT (no zip)"
Got here fine.

The SAME DAY a correctly addressed envelope was delivered to the
trucking company two doors down....

Oh, the first guy was looking for boxcar parts (freight car content!)

Bill

Richard Hendrickson wrote:

It's a crap shoot;
USPS service ranges from excellent to abysmal.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520



eGroups Sponsor
[Choose 3 DVDs for $0.49 each!]
Choose 3 DVDs for $0.49 each!
<http://rd.yahoo.com/M=168002.1291681.2888959.2/D=egroupmail/S=1700169725:N/A=564956/*http://www.columbiahouse.com/gateway?token=7415>


To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
STMFC-unsubscribe@...

Re: The West

Richard Hendrickson
 

Richard Hedrickson...noted geographer...writes:

the Burlington hardly qualifies as western, from the
perspective of a native westerner, as Denver and Cody, WY are only on the
extreme eastern edge of the true west).
I always suspected that that guy who once said, "The west starts at Fort
Worth" didn't know what he was talking about.

Mike Brock...now where'd I leave the key to the bunker?
I don't know anybody named "Hedrickson," much less a noted geographer. But
having grown up on the west coast and spent most of my life here, I can
tell you that, for us far westerners, the west begins at the Front Range.
Denver is western, Cheyenne is Western. Fort Worth isn't western, it's
southwestern, with an emphasis on "south"; all y'gotta do is listen to all
the southernisms in the dialect. Westerners have ranches, not farms (as in
Nebraska and the Dakotas), so those who live in west Texas and eastern New
Mexico sort of qualify - but
they're still flatlanders, so they don't really know from western. The
west is all about mountains. Even in the middle of the Mojave Desert or
the Great Basin, there are likely to be substantial mountains on the
horizon everywhere you look. From a private pilot's perspective, the west
is where you worry about terrain clearance. East of the rockies, you can
fly at 500 ft. AGL all day and never worry about running into anything
except the occasional microwave tower - at least, until you get to the
Appalachians, which are way eastern.

All a matter of perspective, of course. I've heard New Yorkers talk about
"out west in Ohio"; apparently they think Pittsburgh (or maybe
Philadelphia) is the gateway to the west. But then, they call the
Adirondack and Berkshire hills "mountains," so what do they know?



Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520