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Re: PRR R-60 express reefer

Jon Miller <atsf@...>
 

I have just acquired a "Railworks Ltd" PRR R-60 express reefer. I
figured I could use it in a mail train or similar but would like some
information. Period of it's use and would it likely show up on a Santa Fe
mail train?
This is a partial crosspost, sorry if it has been read twice. It is a
freight car (reefer) and a passenger car of sorts (express).

Jon Miller
AT&SF
For me time has stopped in 1941
Digitrax DCC owner, Chief system
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS

Re: PRR R-60 express reefer

Richard Hendrickson
 

I have just acquired a "Railworks Ltd" PRR R-60 express reefer. I
figured I could use it in a mail train or similar but would like some
information. Period of it's use and would it likely show up on a Santa Fe
mail train?
One of the SPFs will have to give you the details on the R-60s, John, but
Pennsy express reefers were common in the consists of the Fast Mail and
Grand Canyon. See, for example, Duke & Kistler p. 108; the second car
behind the locomotive is a steel PRR express reefer.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520

More Tank Cars in the Frt Conductors Book

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Here are more tank cars that are in the UP Frt Conductors Book. Some of these are not common names. A couple of surprises to me are SP car 58403 and CDLX being west bound with juice. Others, more familiar with tank cars...like Richard...will have to tell us if there is anything unexpected here. There are still Sinclair and SHPX cars to check out. So far, there has been 62 known tank cars in the 35 trains.

1. California Despatch Line CDLX 904 EB WINE 0 3-7-49
2. Best Foods BFX 1160 EB OIL 3 3-14-49
3. Champlin Refining C.[?] HHEX 200 WB Oil 4 3-15-49
4. Southern Pacific 58403 WB F.Oil 3-17-49
5. Railway Tank Car Sevice RCSX 814 WB F. Oil 5 3-17-49
6.Conoco CONX 183 WB Oil 5 3-17-49
7. Union Tank Car Co [?] UTL 3862 WB Oil Ogden 3-19-49
8.Crystal Car Line CCLX 697 WB Syrup 6 3-19-49
9. Standard Brands SBIX 2125 WB MT 5 3-19-49
10. Southern Pacific TNO 51215 WB Oil 5 3-19-49 This car's No. does not match '53 ORER
11.Vendome Tank Car Co VENX 255 WB D. Fuel Pocatello 3-19-49
12. Gen American [ Swift ] SWTX 8681 EB Tallow 0 4-3-49
13.California Despatch CDLX 180 EB Oil 0 4-9-49
14. Union Tank UTL 57612 EB Oil 0 4-9-49
15. Union Tank UTL 43942 EB Chem 0 4-9-49
16. Union Tank UTL 50217 EB MT McPherson, KS 4-14-49
17. Union Tank UTL 52299 EB MT " 4-20-49
18. Union Tank UTL 58092 EB MT " 4-20-49
19. Union Tank UTL 56614 EB MT " 4-20-49
20. Union Tank UTL 51073 EB MT " "
21. Cal Despatch CDLX 1066 WB Juice LA-4 4-21-49

Mike Brock

1932 ARA vs X29

ThisIsR@...
 

Hello:
Cab someone explain the differences between the PRR X29 style boxcar and
the 1932 ARA design. Seaboard had the 1932 ARA design. I know they look
similiar but I think the ARA design is taller. Thanks!

Re: PRR R-60 express reefer

Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. <smithbf@...>
 

John Miller asks:

I have just acquired a "Railworks Ltd" PRR R-60 express reefer. I
figured I could use it in a mail train or similar but would like some
information. Period of it's use and would it likely show up on a Santa Fe
mail train?
This is a partial crosspost, sorry if it has been read twice. It is a
freight car (reefer) and a passenger car of sorts (express).
John,

The R-60 reefer was a relatively rare bird - I don't have the exact number
on hand, but the class numbered around 30 when built (early 1900s). By the
transition era, only a few were left in service. It is an interesting car
as it had some unique features, such as a central corridor (where the doors
are) with two seperate refrigerated sections. A far more common sight
would have been the R-50 express reefer, which numbered in the thousands.
Hopefully, we will see a resin R-50 in the very near future (the scuttlebut
says so...).

As Richard noted, photos of PRR express reefers have documented travel all
over the continent, so the possibility does exist that an R-60 would show
up on the Santa Fe, however, the later in the steam era, the less likely,
and the R-60 was usually assigned to a specific service rather than roaming
where needed.

Having said all this, I too have the Railworks R-60 (nice model) and even
though I model PRR, that particular reefer will not show up too often on my
layout...even in 1944 its a bit of an oddball.

Happy Rails
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.
Scott-Ritchey Research Center
334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin
__
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| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 &#92; | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
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Tank Car Crazy

ibs4421@...
 

STMer's,
Funny we should have all of these postings on the conductor's book regarding tank cars. I have been trying to assemble a respectable tank car fleet of the P2K kits. I have been trying to acquire as many of the black "plain-jane" cars as possible, mostly SHPX and GATX 'cause I figure those can be used for most any kind of loading/industry. (BTW, I am considering trying to model a portion of the L&N's "Memphis Line" circa '49-'50.)
Aside from all of the "plain-jane" types, a few privately owned gasoline/petroleum product-carrying cars won't hurt. Can anyone tell me if the following brands of gasoline during this time went (or was transported) under another name:

Standard Oil of Indiana
Esso
Pure
Texaco

A gentleman who I am in correspondence with tells me that he remembers these gas/oil brands being handled by a distributor along the line. (Yes, he thought that was odd too.) They also handled Mobil, which I know is covered by the P2K 10K gal. tank car, but I'm not sure if the scheme is correct for my time period.
Did Kanotex sell under another name to the public? I have never seen this brand in any memorabilia, books, etc.
Any help, advice, directions to a website, etc. would be most welcome on my end. Thank you!

Warren Dickinson
At the terminus of the E&GRR
Elkton, Kentucky

Re: Tank Car Crazy

Richard Hendrickson
 

Warren Dickinson asks:

....Can anyone tell me if the following brands of gasoline during this
time went (or was transported) under another name:

Standard Oil of Indiana
Esso
Pure
Texaco
Texaco still had a large tank car fleet in the early 1950s operated for
them by General American under TCX reporting marks. Most of the cars used
to transport gasoline to wholesalers had aluminum tanks with black
billboard "Texaco." Standard of Indiana and Esso, being former members of
the Standard Oil monopoly, continued to contract with Union Tank Line for
rail shipments after the Standard monolith was broken up by the courts.
Pure Oil sold their tank car fleet to UTC in the mid-1930s and leased cars
from UTC after that date.

Mobil....I know is covered by the P2K 10K gal. tank car, but I'm not sure
if the scheme is correct for my time period.
the P2K paint scheme is correct for your era, as it is based one early
1950s photos.

Did Kanotex sell under another name to the public? I have never seen
this brand in any memorabilia, books, etc.
Kanotex was an abbreviated form of Kansas-Oklahoma-Texas and AFAIK those
states constituted most of their marketing area; though they may have
strayed a bit further afield than that, I don't think they shipped
petroleum products to destinations east of the Mississippi River.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520

Re: PRR R-60 express reefer

Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. <smithbf@...>
 

such as a central corridor (where the doors are) with two seperate
refrigerated sections<
I too have the Railworks R-60 (nice model)<
Bruce,
As you know the model has windows on the doors. The one picture from
Steve Sandifer site seems to show the car with no windows, just inset panels
at the top of the doors. As it is a reefer can I assume it had no windows
or are they just really dirty?
Jon,

What's the URL of Steve's site? The car diagram from Waynor's (spelling?)
book has square windows in the doors. I think that there is a photo or two
of an R60 in Pennsy Power 3 as well, and as I recall, the windows were
present. Some may have been plated over, but I think dirt is more likely
the culprit. I'm also pretty sure that they never received porthole
windows.

I know, the concept of a reefer with windows is a bit odd...but that is
correct for the R-60! It led me to wonder why they were there? During
loading, you would get light through the open door - no need for windows -
or perhaps this allow light in from the closed door side?...did someone
ride there?

Happy Rails
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.
Scott-Ritchey Research Center
334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin
__
/ &#92;
__<+--+>________________&#92;__/___ ____________________________________
|- ______/ O O &#92;_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ |
| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 &#92; | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
|/_____________________________&#92;|_|____________________________________|
| O--O &#92;0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0

Re: 1932 ARA vs X29

Richard Hendrickson
 

Hello:
Cab someone explain the differences between the PRR X29 style boxcar and
the 1932 ARA design. Seaboard had the 1932 ARA design. I know they look
similiar but I think the ARA design is taller. Thanks!
Despite superficial similarities, the two were completely different in both
design and dimensions. The proposed (but never adopted) ARA standard steel
box car of 1924 was essentially a slightly revised Pennsy X29 (at the time
it was proposed, Pennsy people dominated the ARA's Car Construction
Committee). After this car was twice rejected by the mechanical
departments of the ARA's member railroads, a number of railroads had cars
built to the design (or some modification of it) anyway; I'm currently
working on an article which will describe and illustrate those X29 clones,
some of which had various types of proprietary roofs and Dreadnaught ends
instead of the flat riveted types that came off the PRR drawing boards.
The Pennsy went off in a huff, refused to participate in any further
efforts to design an ARA standard car, and ended up building ±30,OOO X29s
for its own use.

Ironically, the brunt of the effort to develop a standard steel box car
that the ARA member railroads would accept was then carried out by the
Pennsy's arch-enemy, the New York Central, and what became the 1932
standard car was the result. It had a much stronger underframe and
distinctive "notched" side sills which resulted from elevating the body
sills above the level of the floor and connecting the bolsters and
crossties to the body by means of tabs extending down below the sills.
This was done because both the X29s and the somewhat modified USRA standard
steel box cars built by the NYC in large numbers during the 1920s trapped
water at the bottom of the sides, causing the steel sheathing to rust out.

At the time the 1932 design was proposed for adoption, there was a great
deal of controversy over its height. Some major RRs wanted taller cars,
but that would have required some smaller lines to enlarge their lineside
clearances, involving in some cases rebuilding bridges and tunnels, and in
the depths of the economic depression this was not a popular idea.
Consequently, the 1932 ARA standard steel box car was only 9'4" high
inside. By 1936, however, a number of RRs were ordering cars of this
design with interior heights of up to 10'0", the lines that had restricted
clearances were essentially forced to enlarge them, and in 1937 a revised
version of the standard design was approved with an inside height of ten
feet.

Most of the cars built to the 1932 ARA specs had 4-4 Dreadnaught ends and
Murphy panel steel roofs, but there were numerous exceptions. CGW had them
built with corrugated ends, NS and NKP got them with Viking roofs, etc.
And the Seaboard and L&A ordered them with flat riveted ends and roof,
which made them look more like the Pennsy X29s than they actually were.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520

Re: Tank Car Crazy

ibs4421@...
 

Sensei Richard sez:
Standard of Indiana and Esso, being former members of
the Standard Oil monopoly, continued to contract with Union Tank Line for
rail shipments after the Standard monolith was broken up by the courts.
Pure Oil sold their tank car fleet to UTC in the mid-1930s and leased cars
from UTC after that date.


So, the P2K Type 21 cars with UTLX rreporting marks would be appropriate then? Or perhaps the Intermountain Type 27?

Warren Dickinson
Out where God lost his shoes in the Pennyrile of Kentucky.

X29 vs 1932 ARA...part 2

ThisIsR@...
 

What was the IH of the PRR X29 boxcars? Were they taller or shorter
than the 1932 ARA? Seaboard's B6 class 17000-18999 had an IH of 9'4"
and were built in 1934 and 1937.
How could the Red Caboose or Walthers X29 car be turned into a SAL
1932 ARA? Any suggestions???
BTW...Richard, thanks for the GREAT explanation. I have been told
the X29 was different from the B6 but never in such detail!
Richard Stallworth

Re: X29 vs 1932 ARA...part 2

Ted Culotta <ted@...>
 

Richard Stallworth wrote:
"How could the Red Caboose or Walthers X29 car be turned into a SAL
1932 ARA? Any suggestions???"

By becoming the Sunshine SAL 1932 ARA box car kits. This is your best (and
easiest) option and they build up into very nice models.

Ted

Pennsy 2248

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Bruce,
There is a photo in UP Modeler Vol 1 showing Pennsy 2248 on a UP Mail Train. No windows. Can you tell me a bit about this car?

Mike Brock

General american tank cars from Red Caboose

Bill Welch <bwelch@...>
 

I sent my money off to Central Hobby Supply for two of the Red Caboose General American tank car. I ordered them Undecorated. I wondered if anyone has seen these in person and what schemes people are ordering?


Bill 'Welch <bwelch@...>
Associate Minister, Unitarian Universalist Congregation of Fairfax
P.O. Box 130 Oakton VA 22124 www.uucf.org
Telephone 703 281-4230 Fax 703 281-5399

Re: Tank Car Crazy

Richard Hendrickson
 

Standard of Indiana and Esso, being former members of
the Standard Oil monopoly, continued to contract with Union Tank Line for
rail shipments after the Standard monolith was broken up by the courts.
Pure Oil sold their tank car fleet to UTC in the mid-1930s and leased cars
from UTC after that date.


So, the P2K Type 21 cars with UTLX rreporting marks would be appropriate
then? Or perhaps the Intermountain Type 27?
Though UTL didn't buy Type 21s new, they had a relatively small number
acquired second-hand during and after the depression, and the P2K models
are accurate for those. However, AFAIK, UTL never owned Type 27s at all,
and what we all need are accurate models of 8K and 10K UTL Class X-3s,
which were built in vast numbers for UTL to their own designs in the 1920s.
InterMountain Type 27 tanks could be used to model the later X-3s with
larger domes but the distinctive UTL underframes remain a problem. There
has been talk about making these in resin but it hasn't come to anything
yet. Sooner or later, we'll get accurate models of X-3s because the
prototypes were too numerous to ignore. Meanwhile, I'll bet you've got
plenty of other unbuilt kits in your closet to keep you busy, n'est ce pas?


Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520

Re: General american tank cars from Red Caboose

Ted Culotta <ted@...>
 

Richard:

I think Bill is referring to the brass models.

-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Hendrickson [mailto:rhendrickson@...]
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 1:40 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] General american tank cars from Red Caboose


I sent my money off to Central Hobby Supply for two of the Red Caboose
General American tank car. I ordered them Undecorated. I wondered if
anyone has seen these in person and what schemes people are ordering?
Bill, the prototypes for the RC ICC-103W tank cars were built by AC&F, and
AFAIK GATC never owned them (though Shippers Car Line did). However, GATC
built some very similar cars for themselves and others after WW II and the
tanks were almost identical, so the GATC version can probably be modeled
pretty accurately by modifying the RC underframes. As those cars first
appeared just after the date I model, I don't have any in-service photos of
GATC 103-Ws, but there's a builder's broadside of one in the 1953 CBCyc. as
well as a builder's photo of an equivalent AC&F-built car. And I have
other early-'50s builder's photos of the AC&F cars.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520



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Re: General american tank cars from Red Caboose

Richard Hendrickson
 

I sent my money off to Central Hobby Supply for two of the Red Caboose
General American tank car. I ordered them Undecorated. I wondered if
anyone has seen these in person and what schemes people are ordering?
Bill, the prototypes for the RC ICC-103W tank cars were built by AC&F, and
AFAIK GATC never owned them (though Shippers Car Line did). However, GATC
built some very similar cars for themselves and others after WW II and the
tanks were almost identical, so the GATC version can probably be modeled
pretty accurately by modifying the RC underframes. As those cars first
appeared just after the date I model, I don't have any in-service photos of
GATC 103-Ws, but there's a builder's broadside of one in the 1953 CBCyc. as
well as a builder's photo of an equivalent AC&F-built car. And I have
other early-'50s builder's photos of the AC&F cars.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520

Re: Tank Car Crazy

ibs4421@...
 

Meanwhile, I'll bet you've got
plenty of other unbuilt kits in your closet to keep you busy, n'est ce pas?


Jawohl!!

Warren Dickinson

Re: General american tank cars from Red Caboose

Richard Hendrickson
 

Richard:

I think Bill is referring to the brass models.
Duh! Of course he is. My apologies, guys. Bill, I have seen pilot models
of the RC brass GATC tank cars and they're very good. The Crystal Car Line
cars have been sent back to Korea for repainting, as they turned out to be
coral pink rather than red. The rest are being shipped even as we speak.
I'm getting Staley (a big fleet that traveled all over in corn oil and corn
syrup service), Crystal Car Line (also used to ship vegetable oils of
various kinds), and an undec that I'll letter for GATX. The Army and NATX
p/l are too late for me, and the SP cars didn't go off-line much.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520

Re: PRR R-60 express reefer

Bob Johnson <bobjohnson@...>
 

John, Bruce and list,

Following are the quantities of PRR express reefers for several dates:

Class built 1-1-47 1-1-50 1-1-55 1-1-60 1-1-67 1-1-68
R50 1 1 0 0 0 0 0
R50a 1 1 1 1 0 0 0
R50b 550 547 546 412 154 6 0
R60 36 33 16 2 0 0 0

Bob Johnson

"Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." wrote:

The R-60 reefer was a relatively rare bird - I don't have the exact number
on hand, but the class numbered around 30 when built (early 1900s). By the
transition era, only a few were left in service. It is an interesting car
as it had some unique features, such as a central corridor (where the doors
are) with two seperate refrigerated sections. A far more common sight
would have been the R-50 express reefer, which numbered in the thousands.
Hopefully, we will see a resin R-50 in the very near future (the scuttlebut
says so...).

As Richard noted, photos of PRR express reefers have documented travel all
over the continent, so the possibility does exist that an R-60 would show
up on the Santa Fe, however, the later in the steam era, the less likely,
and the R-60 was usually assigned to a specific service rather than roaming
where needed.

Having said all this, I too have the Railworks R-60 (nice model) and even
though I model PRR, that particular reefer will not show up too often on my
layout...even in 1944 its a bit of an oddball.