Date   
Re: Looking to contact Ed Kaminski . . . now PM Wooden Cabooses

al.kresse
 

Larry,

It is targeted for PM TRACKS magazine published by the now slowly getting reorganized and running again PM Historical Soc.

Got one pix of A545 in Delray yard already.  Got pix of the "new" A800, A804, A811, A822 and A823 from that series.  Your 1972 date is consistent with the last wooden cabeeses usage. Some made until 1974.

I presume your two cabooses were painted yellow?

Al

On December 13, 2019 at 1:23 PM "lrkdbn via Groups.Io" <lrkdbn@...> wrote:

I'm afraid I cannot help you about Ed Kaminski, but I sure would like to know what periodical your article will be in-as I have a great interest in these cars. When I was growing up on the west side of Detroit, the "neighborhood railroad" was the PRR- C&O- Wabash owned Union Belt,They used C&O A-810 and A-812 in their operations up until about 1972.
Sincerely,
Larry King

 

Coil Car teaser

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Gang;

Here are some "teasers" from my research (please do not post, re-post or publish. If it happens, you won't get any more):

So the attached are the earliest photos I can find (from the PRRT&HS archives), of a dedicated "coil car".

The first is what instigated the second: damage from coil transport in a "standard" box car. The coils were poorly blocked (if at all), resulting in coil rolling. They also tipped into the ends, causing additional damage. Damage included crushing of flooring, wood lining, side posts, end posts, and eventually exterior sheathing.

The "solution" in the second shot is a dedicated PRR X31 coil-hauling coil car, with replaced and more robust oak flooring, 3/16" steel liners with new wood supporting same, in dedicated turn-around service.

1937. I'm curious if they appear in any ORER. I have not found them.

Anyone have evidence of the same thing on other railroads? I would love to know about other RRs' answers to this new kind of cargo.

Thanks!

Elden Gatwood

Re: Looking to contact Ed Kaminski

mel perry
 

try contacting kaminski thru his publisher signature press in berkeley
mel perry

On Fri, Dec 13, 2019, 10:23 AM lrkdbn via Groups.Io <lrkdbn=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
I'm afraid I cannot help you about Ed Kaminski, but I sure would like to know what periodical your article will be in-as I have a great interest in these cars. When I was growing up on the west side of Detroit, the "neighborhood railroad" was the PRR- C&O- Wabash owned Union Belt,They used C&O A-810 and A-812 in their operations up until about 1972.
Sincerely,
Larry King

Re: Looking for resin reefer parts

Greg Martin
 

Tim,

He does.  There are more important parts there than just the reefer parts, but I have a note to him.

Greg Martin

Eventually all things merge into one and a river runs through it.
Norman Maclean



Sent from AOL Desktop

In a message dated 12/12/2019 11:46:37 AM Pacific Standard Time, timboconnor@... writes:


I think Craig Zeni got some - ask him!


On 12/12/2019 2:35 PM, Garth Groff and Sally Sanford wrote:

Did anyone acquire Stan's patterns and masters? He had some really unique stuff.

Yours Aye,

Mungo Napier, Laird of Mallard Lodge  🦆


On Thu, Dec 12, 2019 at 2:05 PM mopacfirst <ron.merrick@...> wrote:
Speaking of molded ends, I'm looking for unbuilt reefer kits or molded resin ends, roofs and doors made by Stan Rydarowicz.  If you have any you're willing to part with, please contact me off-list (click on the Private button bottom right, then on the Reply to Sender button that's turned blue on bottom right ) at mopacfirst@....

Ron Merrick

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

--
Hey Boss,


Somehow I got deleted from this group in late May. I guess someone didn't like me. Jail is a lonely place.

Greg Martin 

Re: Looking to contact Ed Kaminski

lrkdbn
 

I'm afraid I cannot help you about Ed Kaminski, but I sure would like to know what periodical your article will be in-as I have a great interest in these cars. When I was growing up on the west side of Detroit, the "neighborhood railroad" was the PRR- C&O- Wabash owned Union Belt,They used C&O A-810 and A-812 in their operations up until about 1972.
Sincerely,
Larry King

Armour & Company Reefer 8644

Bob Chaparro
 

Armour & Company Reefer 8644

Circa 1926 photos of an Armour reefer:

http://lists.railfan.net/erielackphoto.cgi?erielack-12-12-19/X4863.jpg

http://lists.railfan.net/erielackphoto.cgi?erielack-12-12-19/X4864.jpg

http://lists.railfan.net/erielackphoto.cgi?erielack-12-12-19/X4865.jpg

http://lists.railfan.net/erielackphoto.cgi?erielack-12-12-19/X4866.jpg

Scroll on the photos to enlarge them.

There are no trucks under the car so it was being used for storage. The roof appears to have debris on it, also.

Note the warning poster. I've seen other copies of this same poster in various old photos.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA

Re: 3D pantograph mold making

Donald B. Valentine
 

I was always told that 10 times the desired finish size was a good figure for a 3D pantograph master. Perhaps the
larger question is where do you find anyone with a 3D pantograph? I know at least one shop that sold one for scrap,
a good Decelle, after listing it for sale and receiving no inquiries for six months of better.

Cordially, Don Valentine

Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [PRR] Help with early steel shipment and coiled steel shipment cars

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Jim;

That is a fabulous photo, and EXACTLY what I was looking for. I wanted to contrast B&O and NKP use of Republic hoods with PRR use of home-built, larger hoods, and this is perfect.

Thank you SO much!

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of James E Kubanick
Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2019 7:51 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] [Non-DoD Source] Re: [PRR] Help with early steel shipment and coiled steel shipment cars

Elden,

I'm not sure if this fits into what you're looking for, but I have attached a Howard Ameling photo of a B&O O-63d coil gondola, FYI. A group of O-59's were modified for coil service and re-classified into O-63d's.

Jim Kubanick
Morgantown WV


On Thursday, December 12, 2019, 11:41:00 AM EST, Gatwood, Elden J SAD <elden.j.gatwood@...> wrote:


Curt, and all;


I am most interested in cars between the earliest photos I can find, in the mid-thirties, to the dedicated cars of the mid-fifties thru sixties. I have not been able to re-join the MFCL list, since their migration, for some reason.


I am very interested in cars of Wabash, DT&I, NKP, B&O, C&NW, ATSF, RI, P&WV, NH, C&O, NYC, all of whom were on a parallel track with the PRR. There is a lot of great correspondence between the RRs in the PRRT&HS archives, which I'd like to share at some point.


Thanks!


Elden Gatwood


-----Original Message-----

From: PRR@PRR.groups.io <mailto:PRR@PRR.groups.io> [mailto:PRR@PRR.groups.io <mailto:PRR@PRR.groups.io> ] On Behalf Of Curt Fortenberry

Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2019 11:23 AM

To: PRR@PRR.groups.io <mailto:PRR@PRR.groups.io>

Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [PRR] Help with early steel shipment and coiled steel shipment cars



Elden,


You didn't mention an era, but I would also ask the folks on the MFCL groups.io list. There was a recent discussion of cars used for coiled steel.


Curt Fortenberry

Southern 36 foot truss-rod box car #166561

Brian Rochon
 

From the Steamtown site today.  Build date looks like 3-1924.  Good detail on T-braced end.  Prototype for Westerfield kit 4102?

 

http://lists.railfan.net/erielackphoto.cgi?erielack-12-13-19/X4935.jpg

 

Brian Rochon

Re: Building GN and CB&Q Truss Rod 40-Foot Boxcars

Paul Woods
 

I don't cringe at the sight of people using slotted screws; I get jealous!  I have very little success with slotted screws and I don't do much better with Phillips or Pozidrive screws either, largely thanks to nerve damage from a car wreck of twenty years ago making my fingers slightly numb..  Fortunately it is now very easy to source a vast variety of styles of [metric] screws with hex or torx drives.  I particularly like hex-drive, for being able to stick the screw onto the driver bit, making it a one-handed job to start the screw - a huge advantage for a fumblefingers like me.

Regards
Paul Woods

Whangarei, NZ.

Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [PRR] Help with early steel shipment and coiled steel shipment cars

James E Kubanick
 

Elden,

I'm not sure if this fits into what you're looking for, but I have attached a Howard Ameling photo of a B&O O-63d coil gondola, FYI. A group of O-59's were modified for coil service and re-classified into O-63d's.

Jim Kubanick
Morgantown WV

On Thursday, December 12, 2019, 11:41:00 AM EST, Gatwood, Elden J SAD <elden.j.gatwood@...> wrote:


Curt, and all;

I am most interested in cars between the earliest photos I can find, in the mid-thirties, to the dedicated cars of the mid-fifties thru sixties.  I have not been able to re-join the MFCL list, since their migration, for some reason.

I am very interested in cars of Wabash, DT&I, NKP, B&O, C&NW, ATSF, RI, P&WV, NH, C&O, NYC, all of whom were on a parallel track with the PRR.  There is a lot of great correspondence between the RRs in the PRRT&HS archives, which I'd like to share at some point.

Thanks!

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: PRR@PRR.groups.io [mailto:PRR@PRR.groups.io] On Behalf Of Curt Fortenberry
Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2019 11:23 AM
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [PRR] Help with early steel shipment and coiled steel shipment cars


Elden,

You didn't mention an era, but I would also ask the folks on the MFCL groups.io list.  There was a recent discussion of cars used for coiled steel.

Curt Fortenberry




Re: 3D pantograph mold making

Robert kirkham
 

I guess I learned two things:

  • make our masters a lot bigger, or
  • make them as large digital files and visualize them carefully . . .

 

Was really impressed with the rivet detail on the large scale master, BTW.

 

Rob Kirkham

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bill Welch
Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2019 2:47 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] 3D pantograph mold making

 

Just wondering what we are supposed to do with this information?

Bill Welch

Re: 3D pantograph mold making

Bill Welch
 

Just wondering what we are supposed to do with this information?

Bill Welch

Re: R-40-23 reefer Dreadnaught end

Tim O'Connor
 


I've said before, I've always admired the Front Range R+3/4 box car ends. Some other
ends may be as good but IMO no one has surpassed them.




On 12/12/2019 12:49 PM, Andy Carlson wrote:
I know that a good CNC program is certainly capable of superior work and is done so all the time, but I challenge anyone to find a better HO improved Dreadnaught end than the HO casting I sent a picture of yesterday. Yes, very few do any old school 3D work these days for the reasons you have stated about time. But my challenge I feel is safe from being broken. I look forward to being proven wrong.
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

Re: Looking for resin reefer parts

Tim O'Connor
 


I think Craig Zeni got some - ask him!


On 12/12/2019 2:35 PM, Garth Groff and Sally Sanford wrote:
Did anyone acquire Stan's patterns and masters? He had some really unique stuff.

Yours Aye,

Mungo Napier, Laird of Mallard Lodge  🦆


On Thu, Dec 12, 2019 at 2:05 PM mopacfirst <ron.merrick@...> wrote:
Speaking of molded ends, I'm looking for unbuilt reefer kits or molded resin ends, roofs and doors made by Stan Rydarowicz.  If you have any you're willing to part with, please contact me off-list (click on the Private button bottom right, then on the Reply to Sender button that's turned blue on bottom right ) at mopacfirst@....

Ron Merrick


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

Re: Looking for resin reefer parts

Garth Groff and Sally Sanford
 

Did anyone acquire Stan's patterns and masters? He had some really unique stuff.

Yours Aye,

Mungo Napier, Laird of Mallard Lodge  🦆


On Thu, Dec 12, 2019 at 2:05 PM mopacfirst <ron.merrick@...> wrote:
Speaking of molded ends, I'm looking for unbuilt reefer kits or molded resin ends, roofs and doors made by Stan Rydarowicz.  If you have any you're willing to part with, please contact me off-list (click on the Private button bottom right, then on the Reply to Sender button that's turned blue on bottom right ) at mopacfirst@....

Ron Merrick

3D pantograph mold making

Andy Carlson
 

I wish to be clear--I do not think that old-school 3D mold making is better than CNC. I am simply saying that 3D mold making has made some great model parts and has no need to be viewed as not worthy of fine toolmaking.

In then decades since Athearn switched from Blue Box zinc outside axle bearing blomberg diesel trucks there has been dozens of HO blomberg trucks arrive on the market, and I would not be surprised to learn that ALL of them were made from CNC tech. Yet the folks who have earned high praise for their diesel locomotive builds are nearly unaminous in their preferring the Athearn styrene inside axle bearing blomberg diesel truck. And as I mentioned yesterday, that truck's tooling was made with 3D pantographed toolmaking and remains to the present the best such truck side frame in the hobby.

To me the better CNC tools are using high quality digital scanning which allows the makers to avoid repeating those horrible Dreadnaught ends from the past which resulted from simplified data points placed into the CNC programs. We all remember seeing Dreadnaught ends with breaking steps in the swells' slopes. Those problems go beyond fixing with tool stoneing.

-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA

Looking for resin reefer parts

mopacfirst
 

Speaking of molded ends, I'm looking for unbuilt reefer kits or molded resin ends, roofs and doors made by Stan Rydarowicz.  If you have any you're willing to part with, please contact me off-list (click on the Private button bottom right, then on the Reply to Sender button that's turned blue on bottom right ) at mopacfirst@....

Ron Merrick

Re: 1/12 scale R-40-23 reefer Dreadnaught end

Charlie Vlk
 

When I was visiting the Kato factory I reviewed the CNC milled positive aluminum trial of the N Scale RDC body. 
Over the 3D aluminum object we discussed the roof curvature and marked it up for correction to the 3D CAD tooling files....
The following morning (!!!!) I was presented with the first plastic test shots of the corrected body shells!!!
Reviewing 3D renderings of designs is vastly preferable to trying to absorb and index twenty or more paper drawings covering all the parts in a product.  You can peel away elements to look at every aspect of an assembled model and rotate in it to view at from any perspective.  The 3D design programs have built-in fit and interference features that make engineering and review much simpler.
It is still possible to miss nuances of contour but still it is a lot easier than looking at old fashioned multiple plane views on paper prints.
The review process within a company and the interaction between the project manager and the engineers at the factory is critical.   If the engineers do not make recommended changes the product suffers.  Too many times the designer (in China or even in the US) won’t listen and insists on doing it their way, even though the reviewer has direct end user input or experience.   
Importers need to write detailed outline specs covering the full range of quality, performance and feature characteristics to avoid problems, but too many put all in the hands of the factory and are surprised when products don’t measure up to what the market expects.
Charlie Vlk
Railroad Model Resources


On Dec 12, 2019, at 11:42 AM, Dennis Storzek <destorzek@...> wrote:

On Thu, Dec 12, 2019 at 08:45 AM, Andy Carlson wrote:
I think that in some very important ways the old-school methods of panto reducing down over size patterns with a pantograph can produce parts which the best of CNC tooling has not shown an even match.
-Andy
And I totally disagree. Anything that can be cut by a 3D pantograph can be cut by CNC. In fact, you'll be hard pressed to even find a pantograph in a modern day tool shop, unless the owner is almost retirement age and never gets rid of anything. Toolmaker time is expensive, and a pantograph is a manual machine. The question becomes do you want your toolmaker to spend hours sitting at the pantograph, or be doing something else while the CNC machining center cuts the part unattended.

Pantographs can't reverse the pattern; that is they can't cut a cavity directly from the model of the part. The usual way that was dealt with was to wax the part model, and then pour epoxy around it, thereby producing a pattern of the cavity.

The real problem is one of visualization. It is difficult to see contours in a cavity that are very evident on the part.  In the case of the 1/12 scale end, the pattern maker had the positive pattern to compare to the drawings, and most likely photos of the real end. In my toolmaking work, I cut graphite EDM electrodes, that, while small, are a positive copy of the part, so if contours are strange, they are evident, at least under magnification.

The problem with the IM end is it was most likely cut as a cavity directly into the mold plate, relying on the computer graphics to inspect the shape of the surface, and obviously the programmer got it wrong and didn't catch it. This could have been avoided by using the opposite side of the surface geometry to cut a positive part in plastic or wax. Since CNC files are scaleable, the positive check piece could have been made oversize for easier inspection.

Dennis Storzek

R-40-23 reefer Dreadnaught end

Andy Carlson
 

I know that a good CNC program is certainly capable of superior work and is done so all the time, but I challenge anyone to find a better HO improved Dreadnaught end than the HO casting I sent a picture of yesterday. Yes, very few do any old school 3D work these days for the reasons you have stated about time. But my challenge I feel is safe from being broken. I look forward to being proven wrong.
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA

Inline image


On Thursday, December 12, 2019, 9:25:16 AM PST, Dennis Storzek <destorzek@...> wrote:


On Thu, Dec 12, 2019 at 08:45 AM, Andy Carlson wrote:

I think that in some very important ways the old-school methods of panto reducing down over size patterns with a pantograph can produce parts which the best of CNC tooling has not shown an even match.
-Andy
And I totally disagree. Anything that can be cut by a 3D pantograph can be cut by CNC. In fact, you'll be hard pressed to even find a pantograph in a modern day tool shop, unless the owner is almost retirement age and never gets rid of anything. Toolmaker time is expensive, and a pantograph is a manual machine. The question becomes do you want your toolmaker to spend hours sitting at the pantograph, or be doing something else while the CNC machining center cuts the part unattended.

Pantographs can't reverse the pattern; that is they can't cut a cavity directly from the model of the part. The usual way that was dealt with was to wax the part model, and then pour epoxy around it, thereby producing a pattern of the cavity.

The real problem is one of visualization. It is difficult to see contours in a cavity that are very evident on the part.  In the case of the 1/12 scale end, the pattern maker had the positive pattern to compare to the drawings, and most likely photos of the real end. In my toolmaking work, I cut graphite EDM electrodes, that, while small, are a positive copy of the part, so if contours are strange, they are evident, at least under magnification.

The problem with the IM end is it was most likely cut as a cavity directly into the mold plate, relying on the computer graphics to inspect the shape of the surface, and obviously the programmer got it wrong and didn't catch it. This could have been avoided by using the opposite side of the surface geometry to cut a positive part in plastic or wax. Since CNC files are scaleable, the positive check piece could have been made oversize for easier inspection.

Dennis Storzek