Date   
Re: Question re: upcoming Rapido USRA DS box

Bill Welch
 

Still not seeing the eave boards along the top of the sides.

Bill Welch

Re: C&O 9827

bigfourroad
 

Beautiful job! Perfect attention to detail with the Raceland paint stencil and the light weathering. Chris Rooney

Re: Question re: upcoming Rapido USRA DS box

spsalso
 

Bill,

Thank you for the newer photo.  After comparing the two for awhile, I saw that the spacing of the side rungs on the early one was uneven, with the lower two rungs close together.

I am indeed glad this was caught and corrected.  I am looking forward to them.


Ed

Edward Sutorik

Re: Tamiya primer (was [RealSTMFC] Painting brass)

Tim O'Connor
 

Nelson

Ok, thanks! I may have been too far from the work. The paint I used is the
"fine surface primer".
But I should say that the powder residue was all over
the booth but not on the model pieces - I was mass painting Athearn blue box
underframes. :-[




On 4/12/2020 9:49 AM, Nelson Moyer wrote:

Tim, you’re used the wrong primer. You need Tamiya FINE Light Gray Primer. Tamiya also makes a Light Gray Primer, and the cans look alike except for the word FINE. That makes all the difference in the world. Also, it sounds like your spray distance was too far and the paint evaporated before it hit the car. Tamiya paint is highly volatile. The can recommends 8-10 inches from the work, which is closer than most rattle cars. You want to apply paint in 3-5 passes from different angles, especially on SS cars, stock cars, reefers, or any other cars with raised details. Each pass should be slightly wet. Don’t worry about obscuring details, as it dries very fast and very thin. I use paint handles designed by Pierre, and I start with the underframe from all angles until it’s covered, then I do the sides, ends, and roof, in that order. Don’t try to do the whole car at once. Tamiya recommends temperatures above 50° F and avoid use on days where humidity is high. I’ve primed something like 100 car using Tamiya Fine Light Gray primer without any problems.

 

Nelson Moyer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Tim O'Connor
Sent: Sunday, April 12, 2020 8:32 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: Tamiya primer (was [RealSTMFC] Painting brass)

 


The other day I tried Tamiya Primer Grey from the can, instead of an airbrush. I was
rather surprised that the paint's color pigment left a POWDER RESIDUE when the carrier
or thinner had evaporated. I actually scooped up a little pile of powder with a stiff
piece of cardstock - it had the exact same consistency as weathering powders that I have!

I have NEVER seen a paint of any type do this before.

Am I doing something wrong? I rarely use spray cans...

Tim O'Connor

P.S. Temperature in my workshop about 66F and low humidity (normal for NE winter)


On 4/11/2020 7:28 PM, Tony Thompson wrote:

Clark Propst wrote:



Would like to know what prep work folks do before laying on color?

 

   Clark, I almost always use a light gray primer, sometimes even from a rattle can, but with good paint, such as Tamiya. And I let it sit for some time to be ENTIRELY dry.

 

Tony Thompson

 


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

Re: More WP West Coast Meat Reefer Data

Fred Jansz
 

Wow!
As a WP ànd reefer fan/modeler/collector I'm thrilled to be able to archive your extensive research Garth.
Always wondered if I should include some of these meat reefers in my collection.
And now I know which ones.
Thank you very much.
NB: do I understand well that these reefers wouldn't be in reefer blocks, but random in freight trains?

Cheers, Fred Jansz

Re: Painting brass

Tim O'Connor
 


I've painted over a hundred brass models and have never used vinegar, and only once used
a grit blaster because there was oxidation on the model.

"Unpainted" brass is painted with clear lacquer because otherwise it oxidizes. To remove
this I bought a HUGE plastic storage jar and filled it with acrylic lacquer thinner. The
jar lasted about 15 years before the thinner began to attack the plastic... So anyway, I
would just drop the whole car (it was tall enough for a 90 foot autorack) into the jar
and let the thinner dissolve the clear coat. Then come detergent and warm water cleanup
and sometimes a bit of brushing to remove the coating from grabirons and such.

And Pierre is right, don't handle the dry clean brass with oily fingers! Been there, done
that. :-D



On 4/12/2020 10:33 AM, Bruce Smith wrote:
Mal,

Why do you etch in vinegar and then grit blast? To me that means that one of the two of those approaches is not working 😉. I would simply grit blast to give "tooth" and remove any tarnish or oxidation.

Regards,
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Malcolm H. Houck via groups.io <Indian640@...>
Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2020 9:29 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Painting brass
 
Painting Brass: --

Soak in solvent to make sure all flux and oils are removed;

Soak in white vinegar (nothing more that weak acetic acid);

Rinse and dry;

I blast in a cabinet with #400 Alox;

Most primer is nothing more than another (unnecessary) coat of paint, and
of questionable value when attempting a (chemical) bond to non-ferrous material
and so-called etching primers are formulated for ferric materials employing
phosphoric acid as the etchant (creating iron phosphate for paint to stick to);

But I do coat with a clear industrial preparation.......branded as "Steelcote"
(and consisting largely of purified shellac - once covered with the color coat
it's as durable as anything else);

Paint and then bake......I have stuff painted over thirty-five years ago
with Steelcote - Scalecoat.......trudged all over and about for display, packed, unpacked,
repacked, unpacked.......etc., etc., etc.,

Rarely any touch up..........

Mal Houck


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

Re: Painting brass

Bruce Smith
 

My 2 cents...

Disassemble

As noted by many, remove the clear coat (stripper, sometime grit blaster)

Always etch in some way - I grit blast with baking soda.  A note that baking soda is not nearly as effective as Aluminum oxide, but it is much safer (accidental inhalation) and I can dispose of the used stuff on my lawn to counter my acid soil 😉

Wash thoroughly, rinse very thoroughly, dry and DO NOT TOCUH with bare hands.

If I am using acrylics for the colors, I prime with a Rattle can, Model Master Flat Black Enamel (note. I have avoided doing light colors this way). This paint is amazingly fine, does not obscure details, self levels and sticks to brass, to the point where it is hard to strip it. When I am painting something black, I'm done at this step!

If I am using Scalecoat 1, as others have noted, no primer is needed.

Regards,
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL (headed for the tornado shelter with a kit shortly - good luck and stay safe to all my southern friends today!)


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Tony Thompson <tony@...>
Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2020 6:28 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Painting brass
 
Clark Propst wrote:

Would like to know what prep work folks do before laying on color?

   Clark, I almost always use a light gray primer, sometimes even from a rattle can, but with good paint, such as Tamiya. And I let it sit for some time to be ENTIRELY dry.

Tony Thompson



Re: Painting brass

Bruce Smith
 

Mal,

Why do you etch in vinegar and then grit blast? To me that means that one of the two of those approaches is not working 😉. I would simply grit blast to give "tooth" and remove any tarnish or oxidation.

Regards,
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Malcolm H. Houck via groups.io <Indian640@...>
Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2020 9:29 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Painting brass
 
Painting Brass: --

Soak in solvent to make sure all flux and oils are removed;

Soak in white vinegar (nothing more that weak acetic acid);

Rinse and dry;

I blast in a cabinet with #400 Alox;

Most primer is nothing more than another (unnecessary) coat of paint, and
of questionable value when attempting a (chemical) bond to non-ferrous material
and so-called etching primers are formulated for ferric materials employing
phosphoric acid as the etchant (creating iron phosphate for paint to stick to);

But I do coat with a clear industrial preparation.......branded as "Steelcote"
(and consisting largely of purified shellac - once covered with the color coat
it's as durable as anything else);

Paint and then bake......I have stuff painted over thirty-five years ago
with Steelcote - Scalecoat.......trudged all over and about for display, packed, unpacked,
repacked, unpacked.......etc., etc., etc.,

Rarely any touch up..........

Mal Houck

Re: Utah Coal Route steel gons in log service

Bruce Smith
 

Dumb question... how does that "unloading crane" get to the closer cars? It would seem highly inefficient for the crane to unload a car, shunt that car somewhere, unload the next, etc... Now, the crane is most likely self propelled so it could do that... but it sure isn't efficient.

Regards,
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Doug Paasch <drpaasch@...>
Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2020 9:39 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io <main@realstmfc.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Utah Coal Route steel gons in log service
 

Thanks Claus!  Awesome picture, and with the unloading crane with tongs, too.  I will be modeling log dumps on my layout and this photo will be a great reference on how log loads were secured in gondolas and type of crane used to unload them.

Doug Paasch


On Apr 11, 2020 1:59 PM, "Claus Schlund &#92;(HGM&#92;)" <claus@...> wrote:
Hi List Members,
 
A nice view of Utah Coal Route steel gons in log service...
 
 
Additional image data can be found at the link below...
 
 
Enjoy
 
Claus Schlund
 

Re: Painting brass

Tim O'Connor
 


Painting brass with PRIMER is NECESSARY when using Accupaint on brass. Simple as that.

But when I use Scalecoat I, it's not necessary. Unless I do it for COLOR reasons (such
as a light color primer under Daylight Red or Daylight Orange).

I painted this car with SC-I, baked it, and applied CDS dry transfers.

By the way, those W&R sprung trucks have FIVE SPRINGS in each sideframe! Ask me how I
know! :-D




On 4/11/2020 10:26 PM, Andy Carlson wrote:
Tim O'Connor can tell you that George Bishop received his California supplied paint in 1 gallon buckets, 4 to a card board box, stacked together on wooden pallets.

I have way too much time.....
-Andy Carlson   Ojai CA

On Saturday, April 11, 2020, 6:22:28 PM PDT, Donald B. Valentine via groups.io <riverman_vt@...> wrote:
.....5 gallon cans from California.....


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

Re: Question re: upcoming Rapido USRA DS box

Bill Schneider
 

Ed,

That's an early pre-production piece hand-assembled and painted. WIth the mess right now we don;t have an active web master to update the image. Production shot attached.

Bill Schneider

Re: Tamiya primer (was [RealSTMFC] Painting brass)

Nelson Moyer
 

Tim, you’re used the wrong primer. You need Tamiya FINE Light Gray Primer. Tamiya also makes a Light Gray Primer, and the cans look alike except for the word FINE. That makes all the difference in the world. Also, it sounds like your spray distance was too far and the paint evaporated before it hit the car. Tamiya paint is highly volatile. The can recommends 8-10 inches from the work, which is closer than most rattle cars. You want to apply paint in 3-5 passes from different angles, especially on SS cars, stock cars, reefers, or any other cars with raised details. Each pass should be slightly wet. Don’t worry about obscuring details, as it dries very fast and very thin. I use paint handles designed by Pierre, and I start with the underframe from all angles until it’s covered, then I do the sides, ends, and roof, in that order. Don’t try to do the whole car at once. Tamiya recommends temperatures above 50° F and avoid use on days where humidity is high. I’ve primed something like 100 car using Tamiya Fine Light Gray primer without any problems.

 

Nelson Moyer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Tim O'Connor
Sent: Sunday, April 12, 2020 8:32 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: Tamiya primer (was [RealSTMFC] Painting brass)

 


The other day I tried Tamiya Primer Grey from the can, instead of an airbrush. I was
rather surprised that the paint's color pigment left a POWDER RESIDUE when the carrier
or thinner had evaporated. I actually scooped up a little pile of powder with a stiff
piece of cardstock - it had the exact same consistency as weathering powders that I have!

I have NEVER seen a paint of any type do this before.

Am I doing something wrong? I rarely use spray cans...

Tim O'Connor

P.S. Temperature in my workshop about 66F and low humidity (normal for NE winter)


On 4/11/2020 7:28 PM, Tony Thompson wrote:

Clark Propst wrote:



Would like to know what prep work folks do before laying on color?

 

   Clark, I almost always use a light gray primer, sometimes even from a rattle can, but with good paint, such as Tamiya. And I let it sit for some time to be ENTIRELY dry.

 

Tony Thompson

 


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

Re: Utah Coal Route steel gons in log service

Tim O'Connor
 


They look like Lodgepole pine logs. The Lodgepole grows like a weed in the northwestern
states and forms dense stands. It's not a Douglas Fir or one of the mighty Spruce trees
from the Olympic Peninsula (that grew well over 300 feet tall) or even Ponderosa pine,
but not all lumber needs to be high quality. :-)

Iron ore, coal, copper ore all came from Utah, and Rio Grande GS gondolas were often seen
in the PNW.

Also, logs and even wood chips can be economically moved from Wyoming to Portand and
Seattle. Lots of Lodgepole forest in Wyoming.



On 4/11/2020 8:06 PM, David Soderblom wrote:
A lovely image with so much going on:

- Such skinny logs for that long ago; not old-growth at all, and with tangled branches.  Not worth harvesting for many outfits at that time.
- A recently constructed mill: the paint and roof lines are so tidy.  What’s the long diagonal building extension going to in the background?  It looks like a factory building with its windows on lower storeys, so many uses for the sawdust or scrap?
- Note how the top logs in the foreground car extend over the car end, coupler, and to the next car.  Not kosher, unless the cars were intended to be a single shipment unit.
- The steam crane at the far end: for unloading the cars?  Most sawmills had better means than that, although those were specifically for log cars, as opposed to gons, where the logs have ti lifted over the sides.  Was this a highly unusual movement, justifying the photo?
- Steam everywhere.  Talk about the steam era.  1930s, to judge by the cars to the right.

And the obvious question:  Why UCR cars?  Logs from Utah?!


David Soderblom


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

Re: Tamiya primer (was [RealSTMFC] Painting brass)

Tim O'Connor
 


The other day I tried Tamiya Primer Grey from the can, instead of an airbrush. I was
rather surprised that the paint's color pigment left a POWDER RESIDUE when the carrier
or thinner had evaporated. I actually scooped up a little pile of powder with a stiff
piece of cardstock - it had the exact same consistency as weathering powders that I have!

I have NEVER seen a paint of any type do this before.

Am I doing something wrong? I rarely use spray cans...

Tim O'Connor

P.S. Temperature in my workshop about 66F and low humidity (normal for NE winter)


On 4/11/2020 7:28 PM, Tony Thompson wrote:
Clark Propst wrote:

Would like to know what prep work folks do before laying on color?

   Clark, I almost always use a light gray primer, sometimes even from a rattle can, but with good paint, such as Tamiya. And I let it sit for some time to be ENTIRELY dry.

Tony Thompson


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

Question re: upcoming Rapido USRA DS box

David
 

The end ladder is correct; it's the three side grabs that are too low.

David Thompson

Re: C&O 9827

gtws00
 

Great looking car!
Very well done
George Toman

Re: Painting brass

Bill Welch
 

Do whatever Mal says, always. . .

Bill Welch

Re: Question re: upcoming Rapido USRA DS box

Charlie Duckworth
 

Rapido told me that the B units will be here in May. 
--
Charlie Duckworth 
Omaha, Ne.

Re: Painting brass

Donald B. Valentine
 

       I first met George Bishop when we both suffered working in Boston, neither of us being city oriented. That was 50
years ago when George was just starting SMP and working for a Boston firm full time as I was also. He began with a
kit or two, the one I remember being of the CV caol tipple at not too distant from me back in Vermont at St. Albans. It 
was based on an Eric Stevens articlle in MR years ago. From there he sent into decals and eventually paint. If George
were still with us he would confirm what he told me during a visit when he and Ron, whose last name escapes me this
morning, were printing decals for NERS. That is that I was one of the chief causes of his giv9ing up on Floquil and 
changing paint suppliers. Yes, some of the slow selling colors came in one gallon cans, which made them quite a bit
more expensive then the five gallon cans used for more popular colors. Toward the end George may well have chenged
and received all colors in ne gallon cans. I don't know about that as I did not see him that often after he experienced a
house fire some yerar ago.

      I have heard some from the Nashua Valley Club, which he housed in the same building on nis property that his office
was in, members complain vehemently about George and can only saw that in his dealings with me for NERS work were 
ALWAYS honorable and straight forward. I wish he was still with us and that he and Ron were still working together as 
they would still be printing decals for NERS. As late STMFC member Dick Dermody noticed VERY quickly once George 
began having MicroScale print his decals. the quaity rapidly and noticeably declined. This was especially noticeable, 
and is where Dick first observed it, in decals for B&M E-7 passenger diesels where the registration went to hell in a hand
basket and created problems between George and MicroScale. I believe this is what lead MicroScale to seemingly copy
the much of the Accu-cal line. It's a damn good thing it wan't me they were dealing with!

     Rest in peace George. You served us well and brought to us the best paint yet found for painting styrene.

Respectfully, Don Valenttine

More WP West Coast Meat Reefer Data

Garth Groff and Sally Sanford
 

Good Friends,

After my response to RJ about west coast meat reefer traffic, I decided to parse WP Circular 167-E to see what else could be gleaned from that document about meat traffic. This is not like having real train consists, but does give some ideas about where the cars went and possibly how important, or unimportant, this traffic was. The circular lists all WP/SN/TS/CCT/OT/ABL customers as of 1957, as well as SP/ATSF/UP/Shortline customers in joint switching districts, or where cars would have been received or delivered to/from other roads for local delivery. As such, it doesn't tell us much about traffic on those other railroads, just the possibility of WP interchanging meat reefers there.

So on the WP itself we have 12 destinations for "PHP" (packing house products) or "meat". I wonder if the difference was that "meat" meant animal carcasses for further processing, while "PHP" was pre-packaged meat products, or possibly still unpackaged but processed products which would be wrapped for sale at the destination. In addition, there were 8 destinations for "groceries", meaning general grocery wholesalers, or distribution centers owned by large chains (like Safeway) which might have received meat products along with other food shipments. There was also 1 receiver of poultry products. All these customers had sidings with a total of 45 spots, which says something about how much traffic they received (most appear to be small re-distribution centers with just one or two spots--very model railroad-sized operations). I noted that generally the grocery wholesalers had more spots than the meat distribution centers.

On WP's subsidiary Sacramento Northern (SN) there were 2 grocery wholesalers with a total of 12 spots. The Tidewater Southern (TS) contributed 1 grocery house with 4 spots. There no customers who received only PHP or meat.

There were no PHP or grocery customers listed for WP's partial subsidiaries Oakland Terminal Railway (OT), Central California Traction Co. (CCT) or Alameda Belt Line (ABL).

In addition, some customers received their shipments at team tracks, which are not listed as specific to any road, and have no spot counts. 11 customers received PHP or meat via team tracks, with 7 more grocery wholesalers and 4 poultry wholesalers/processors. I presume by this time, the poultry was dressed, not live. I did not count the few customers who received eggs, nor did I count on-line slaughter houses, most of which were fairly small and likely would have received live animals for local consumption and probably did not ship meat anywhere else.

By contrast, the SP had 12 customers for PHP/meat traffic, 6 grocery wholesalers, and 3 poultry receivers, and had sidings totalling 80 spots. ATSF contributed 1 grocery wholesaler with just 1 spot. The UP had 1 grocery wholesaler with 2 spots. The situation isn't exactly clear in Salt Lake City, with the WP/D&RGW/UP sharing joint switching at a former arms plant converted to an industrial park that included several possible customers. I put all those under WP above. In addition, there were 10 grocery wholesalers on connecting shortlines or terminal switching operations with a total of 16 spots.

Now as to the customers themselves, I found 10 nationally known companies represented with their own distribution centers. Below, these list the railroad, products listed, and number of spots. I'm not sure what "AT" means. It pops up in several different cities in the railroad code space, but it not defined the book's abbreviations section. Likely it's short for "ATSF"; if so the book uses both abbreviations. Somebody mentioned military shipments, and I did not think to include these destinations, but  some bases would have received shipments, and the Oakland Army Base was a major supply depot for Pacific overseas installations.

Armour--Sacramento (SP-meat, 10); San Francisco (2 SP locations-PHP and meat at both, 2, 4)
Cudahy--Oakland (WP-PHP, 1); Salt Lake City (WP/D&RGW/UP-PHP, 9); San Francisco (State Belt RR-PHP, 2)
Dubuque--San Francisco (SP-PHP, 10)
Hahn--San Francisco (WP-meat, 1)
Hormel--San Francisco (WP-PHP and canned goods, 4)
Kingan--San Francisco (SP-PHP, 3)
Krey--San Francisco (not sure if this one is national; WP-PHP, 1)
Morrell--Oakland (WP-PHP, 3)
Rath--San Francisco (SP-PHP, 4)
Swift--Oakland (WP-PHP, 2); Reno (SP-PHP, 1); Sacramento (SP-meat, 2); San Francisco (SP-PHP, 4); Stockton (AT (ATSF?)-PHP, 10)

So obviously, there was west coast meat traffic. This sample mostly includes the WP, and SP's destinations in major central and northern California locations. It does not account for UP or ATSF routes to Southern California, the SP in Oregon, or any north-south through traffic, such as westbound cars received by the GN over the WP's NCE (the "Inside Gateway"). It certainly gives modelers of west coast railroads like the WP and SP justification for including meat reefers in their trains, including packer-owned/leased cars. You wouldn't have seen long trains of meat reefers (unlike PFE fruit blocks)RJ will be happy that the WP likely handled meat reefers from Cudahy, Hahn, Hormel, Krey, Morrell and Swift, though probably only one or two at a time.

One more item. Somebody mentioned livestock shipments on the UP into Southern California. This would have been the famous UP hog trains that served the Farmer John's pork plant in the South Los Angles area, probably the last regular large railroad livestock operation in the US. I don't know that Farmer John shipped finished products back out by rail; certainly not when I drove a delivery truck near the plant after college in the 1970s. Farmer John's building and parking lot walls were famous for the murals of cavorting porcine creatures in hog heaven. What you couldn't see from the streets was the the back side of the building's murals (facing the Los Angeles River) showing the pigs being unloaded and hearded to their doom. Sinister.

Hope you enjoy "chewing" on this.

Now back to scanning negatives.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff  🦆