Date   
Oxide red

Brian Carlson
 

The MRH paint mapping guide suggests Vallejo Scarlet Red 72.712 for floquil oxide red.

Scarlet red looks very very red. Has anyone actually used this color and can offer an opinion before I buy a bottle.

Brian J. Carlson

Re: Photo: Vegetarian Meat Reefer - Cudahy 5177

Bob Chaparro
 

Roger Hinman commented,

"Not all Cudahy’s were the same company which adds to the confusion.  The largest of them was the Cudahy Packing Co in South Omaha and later many locations. They also had the Cudahy tank line and produce line when listed.   Cudahy Milw Rfg Line was run by Cudahy Brothers in Milwaukee, later Cudahy, WI. Their brothers ran the larger business in So Omaha.

And then there are various small efforts made by John Cudahy who was a part owner of the Milwaukee company but also had some of his own private ventures. My suspicion is the car shown in the Union Fibre book has CRL reporting marks. The Old Dutch Cleanser was a trademark of the Cudahy Packing Company."

Re: C&O Burro Crane Photos

mofwcaboose
 

Small four-wheeled cranes dated back to 1883 in the US (1859 in England) and were always a part of the Industrial Works line, but these were all steam cranes.

Cullen-Friestedt introduced the Burro Crane around 1921. The first cranes looked like little stiff-leg derricks on four-wheeled flat cars. They were gas-powered and could lift 2½ tons. The first full-revolving ones were introduced around 1929. The type has been steadily improved since then The current model 6000 is no longer rail-mounted except on retractable railroad wheels when needed.

John C. La Rue, Jr.
Bonita Springs, FL


-----Original Message-----
From: A&Y Dave in MD <dbott@...>
To: mofwcaboose via groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Sent: Sat, Jun 20, 2020 4:38 pm
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] C&O Burro Crane Photos

When were burro cranes or their like first introduced?

Dave Bott

Friday, June 19, 2020, 11:04:26 AM, you wrote:


Locomotive cranes  were found on the C&O, though apparently not in the numbers seen on some other railroads. In contrast to the meticulous  listing of C&O's wreckers, data on smaller cranes is very scattered and hard to find.

I personally only photographed one  crane; RC-24, an Industrial Works/Industrial Brownhoist Model N of at least 60 tons capacity used for bridge work.

Burro cranes are a special case. They are usually numbered in with the track machines (such as tampers, spike drivers, etc.), and the numbers  tend to be scattered all over. Lifting capacities are tied to the  model number, which can be found cast into the rear of the cab, under the trade name "Burro". For example. a Model 30 is good for 7½ tons.

John C. La Rue, Jr.
Bonita Springs, FL



---Original Message-----
From: Garth Groff and Sally Sanford <mallardlodge1000@...>
To: RealSTMFC@groups.io
Sent: Thu, Jun 18, 2020 10:39 am
Subject: [RealSTMFC] C&O Burro Crane Photos

Friends,

Today I'm sharing six photos of C&O Burro cranes. All these photos were taken in the 1980s or 1990s, most at Charlottesville, but two views are of the same crane at Gladstone (front and rear). I don't know for certain when these cranes were built, but I suspect that most date from the 1950s and so are within our timeframe.

Strangely, I've never seen any bigger C&O cranes, though they certainly had some large machines. I would not be surprised if there is/was one stationed at Clifton Forge, and possibly another at Newport News or Richmond.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff  閭



--
David Bott

Sent from David Bott's desktop PC

--
____________________________
David Bott, modeling the A&Y in '34

Re: What methods do you use to add weight to an empty flatcar?

Dave Parker
 

I am not an expert in lead toxicology, but I used to work with people who are.  If you are using lead flashing (or shot) to weight freight cars, the needed safety precautions are minimal:

-  keep your hands out of your mouth
-  wash them when done (or wear disposable gloves)
-  don't sand it so as to create dust

Acute toxicity, and dermal exposure, are primarily a  concern with organo-lead compounds (like tetraethyl-lead in gasoline).

The long-term chronic effects of inorganic lead ingestion are much more significant in young children who are still developing cognitively.  Most of us here are well past that part of the brain development curve.
--
Dave Parker
Swall Meadows, CA

Re: Archive for Rail Model Craftsman?

Rich C
 

No problem. Did you actually find that kit? I had all 4 of those early kits. The resin was really bad. The way he cast roofs makes the roof trash fodder! I gave up on mine when SnT 2014 rolled around and scrapped them all and bought castings from Greg and Chad. The best decals for the y/g CMO car are from Mask Island.

On Saturday, June 20, 2020, 04:08:34 PM CDT, Jim Hayes <jimhayes97225@...> wrote:


Never mind. My kit is for the CGW and none of them got the yellow/green scheme. Only CMO cars did.
Sorry for your work.

    JimH

Re: C&O Burro Crane Photos

Bruce Smith
 

It is just amazing to me what a Google search of "Burro Crane History" can find!

Regards,
Bruce
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL
In 1990, Burro Crane Inc., then a subsidiary of Avis Industrial Corporation, moved from its Chicago facility to subsidiary, Badger, which acquired the Burro 40 & 45. Burro Crane was a sister company at the time. In 1997, Badger produced the last Burro Model 40 crane.
moablive.com



From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of A&Y Dave in MD <dbott@...>
Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2020 3:38 PM
To: mofwcaboose via groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] C&O Burro Crane Photos
 
When were burro cranes or their like first introduced?

Dave Bott

Friday, June 19, 2020, 11:04:26 AM, you wrote:


Locomotive cranes  were found on the C&O, though apparently not in the numbers seen on some other railroads. In contrast to the meticulous  listing of C&O's wreckers, data on smaller cranes is very scattered and hard to find.

I personally only photographed one  crane; RC-24, an Industrial Works/Industrial Brownhoist Model N of at least 60 tons capacity used for bridge work.

Burro cranes are a special case. They are usually numbered in with the track machines (such as tampers, spike drivers, etc.), and the numbers  tend to be scattered all over. Lifting capacities are tied to the  model number, which can be found cast into the rear of the cab, under the trade name "Burro". For example. a Model 30 is good for 7½ tons.

John C. La Rue, Jr.
Bonita Springs, FL




Re: Archive for Rail Model Craftsman?

Jim Hayes
 

Never mind. My kit is for the CGW and none of them got the yellow/green scheme. Only CMO cars did.
Sorry for your work.

    JimH

Re: Archive for Rail Model Craftsman?

Jim Hayes
 

Ah ha! The muddy pictures I have are CMO.

JimH

Re: C&O Burro Crane Photos

A&Y Dave in MD
 

When were burro cranes or their like first introduced?

Dave Bott

Friday, June 19, 2020, 11:04:26 AM, you wrote:


Locomotive cranes  were found on the C&O, though apparently not in the numbers seen on some other railroads. In contrast to the meticulous  listing of C&O's wreckers, data on smaller cranes is very scattered and hard to find.

I personally only photographed one  crane; RC-24, an Industrial Works/Industrial Brownhoist Model N of at least 60 tons capacity used for bridge work.

Burro cranes are a special case. They are usually numbered in with the track machines (such as tampers, spike drivers, etc.), and the numbers  tend to be scattered all over. Lifting capacities are tied to the  model number, which can be found cast into the rear of the cab, under the trade name "Burro". For example. a Model 30 is good for 7½ tons.

John C. La Rue, Jr.
Bonita Springs, FL



---Original Message-----
From: Garth Groff and Sally Sanford <mallardlodge1000@...>
To: RealSTMFC@groups.io
Sent: Thu, Jun 18, 2020 10:39 am
Subject: [RealSTMFC] C&O Burro Crane Photos

Friends,

Today I'm sharing six photos of C&O Burro cranes. All these photos were taken in the 1980s or 1990s, most at Charlottesville, but two views are of the same crane at Gladstone (front and rear). I don't know for certain when these cranes were built, but I suspect that most date from the 1950s and so are within our timeframe.

Strangely, I've never seen any bigger C&O cranes, though they certainly had some large machines. I would not be surprised if there is/was one stationed at Clifton Forge, and possibly another at Newport News or Richmond.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff  閭



--
David Bott

Sent from David Bott's desktop PC
--
____________________________
David Bott, modeling the A&Y in '34

Re: What methods do you use to add weight to an empty flatcar?

A&Y Dave in MD
 

I must say I love the debate.  It is like theoretical vs empirical physics...

I think I like the idea of cutting to width and gluing lead strips in the center of a side sill best so far for simplicity and for time to complete. Only concern is "safety" of lead vs tungsten.

I could see how powdered tungsten applied and glued in thin layers could also work, but might take longer and be more tedious.

Just remember the goal is to provide a weight to the steam era freight car that is sufficient for reliable operations purposes (since a static model's weight wouldn't matter).  Theoretical maximums may not even be necessary.

Reminds me of the new engineering intern who provided detailed analyses that showed heating plant X to be the most thermodynamically and cost efficient to replace the old system.  And then the seasoned engineer pointed out that the physical dimensions of that theoretically best unit were about 30% greater than any known access point into the building.  Gotta keep the ultimate goal in mind.  Of course some find noodling on the ideas a hobby in and of itself!

Having fun...

Dave

--
David Bott

Sent from David Bott's desktop PC
--
____________________________
David Bott, modeling the A&Y in '34

Re: Archive for Rail Model Craftsman?

Kenneth Montero
 

Jim,

I have that magazine, but I did not see anything in there regarding a C&NW boxcar in the yellow/green scheme. I searched the table of contents, the index, and did a page-by-page search - and found nothing. The Sunshine listing in HO Scale Products News was for a flatcar and lumber loads.

Please re-check the note to see if it could be some other RMC issue.

Ken Montero




On June 20, 2020 at 3:48 PM Jim Hayes <jimhayes97225@...> wrote:

Is there an archie for RMC? I have a Sunshine kit #2.1 for a C&NW boxcar in the yellow/green scheme.
There's a note written inside o see an article in the Sept. 1994 RMC and I'd like to see it.

    JimH

 

Archive for Rail Model Craftsman?

Jim Hayes
 

Is there an archie for RMC? I have a Sunshine kit #2.1 for a C&NW boxcar in the yellow/green scheme.
There's a note written inside o see an article in the Sept. 1994 RMC and I'd like to see it.

    JimH

Re: Photo: PFE Reefer With Ventilator Hood Propped Open

Claus Schlund \(HGM\)
 

Hi Bob and Tony
 
Great image. I do suspect it is "Dunbar Molasses and Syrup Company", not "Dunbar Molasses and Soap Company"
 
Claus Schlund
 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2020 1:55 PM
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: PFE Reefer With Ventilator Hood Propped Open

Bob Chaparro wrote:

Photo: PFE Reefer With Ventilator Hood Propped Open

A undated photo from the Louisiana Digital Library

https://louisianadigitallibrary.org/islandora/object/hnoc-clf%3A6627

This photo can be enlarged quite a bit. Click on the photo and then scroll on it.

The car number is illegible.

The ventilator appears to be a Bohn Standard Ventilator. In the few photos I've seen I've never seen this kind of ventilator propped open in this manner.

     Car number is indeed illegible but appears to be four digits, consistent with the pre-1917 car lettering.
      The huge fleet of Dunbar Molasses and Soap Company tank cars in the distance is pretty interesting too.

Tony Thompson



Re: Photo: Vegetarian Meat Reefer - Cudahy 5177

Tony Thompson
 

Dave Parker wrote:

This is not really my bailiwick, but don't you have to make a distinction between what the packer could carry in their meat reefers, versus what the billboard adverting was touting?

        Most of the advertising was for the benefit of lessees, so for example a butter ad on the car likely meant that it was being used for that, or at least for a company that shipped butter among other things.

I have never tracked down the 1919 ICC ruling, but it doesn't seem that it was very cut-and-dried.  Or am I missing something?

    Not the ICC, it was the FTC. It ordered Armour out of the produce business, and they got out (selling most of the reefers to a new company called Fruit Growers Express).

Tony Thompson



Schoen and Pressed Steel early hoppers

David
 

Ahh, this is right up my alley. Notes and comments follow:

The initial contract to Schoen Pressed Steel was for 200 cars to Schoen's design (5501-5700) and 400 cars to Carnegie's design (5701-6100), with another 400 Schoen-design cars (6101-6500) added on later.
PB&LE 6501-8100 were followup orders of the Schoen 28-foot design in 1899-1901.

There were at least five primary variants of the Type 1 (fishbelly side sill) hopper:
28-foot inside length: PB&LE orders
29-foot inside length: P&LE 11900-11999, PMcK&Y 13500-13549, P&W 4000-4449 (to B&O 25550-25999)
30-foot inside length with 9'6" inside width: various orders
30-foot inside length with 8' 8.5" inside width: B&O N-8 44000-44999 (10'3 eaves height), B&O N-9 20000-23999, 120000-123999 (10'8" eaves height); Pittsburg and Buffalo Co. 1000-1019 (10'8" eaves height)
31'6" inside length: PRR class GL and copies

The Type 2 design can trace back to the five PRR class GM gondolas of 1898. Though not true hoppers, the side construction was similar in a number of ways.
Erie 49000-49999 may be the first PSC straight-sill hoppers, as period references describe other early orders for straight-sill hoppers as "Erie type".
C&A 25000-25009 were 31'6" inside length cars built by PSC circa 1901. These may be PPR class GL copies, or something else completely.

This is a list of the Type 2 cars that I compiled a while back from Eric Neubauer's Pressed Steel builder's list:

1000 Erie 49000-49999 2-3/00
 150 BR&P 14000-14149 00
 400 P&LE 10500-10899 00
 200 PMcK&Y 13550-13749 00
 150 WNY&P 10100-10249 5-9/00
 150 CLS&E 9301-9599o 00  to EJ&E ca 1914
 300 AS&W 1601-2199o 00  to N&SS
 100 DL&W 69900-69999 00
  25 P&RF 3001-3025 00 to MEC 2650-2674
1000 P&R 80000-80999 6-7/01
1000 CNJ 48000-48999 3/01  9'10eh
 150 C&A 25010-25159 01
1000 DL&W 72000-72999 8/02
 500 GT 73000-73499 7-8/03
1000 P&LE 10900-11899 04

   1 UP 11500 3/05 ACF lot 3290

 400 SP 90900-91299
 100 UP 11501-11600
 100 OSL 20601-20700
all Cambria Steel Car 3-5/07

 120 UP 11601-11720
  50 O&W 50000-50049 (Oregon & Washington) to OWR&N 60870-60919
all Cambria Steel Car 1909

 100 SPdeM 14036-14135 PSC 1910


These may be Type 2 hoppers, but I have no hard information:

  20 [PPGCo 101-120 00 PPGX]
  50 [RGW 1227-1276 00 to D&RG 18224-18271 ca 1914]
300 [OSL 6300-6599 11/00 to 20300-20599, 30294-30584]
  10 [ASSCo.14+ 01? American Sheet Trust; to AS&W?]
  70 [MACo 700+792 70 in 01? Michigan Alkali]
  10 [LI&SCo 200-209 01?  9'10eh]
  50 [USCo. 1-50 Union Steel Co. 01?]
  25 [P&RF 3026-3050 02 to MEC 2675-2699]
  20 [MACo 700+792 20 in 02? Michigan Alkali]
  20 [MACo 826-845 04]

David Thompson

Re: Photo: Vegetarian Meat Reefer - Cudahy 5177

Dave Parker
 

This is not really my bailiwick, but don't you have to make a distinction between what the packer could carry in their meat reefers, versus what the billboard adverting was touting?

In Chapter 3 of the Hendrickson and Kaminski billboard reefer book, there are a number of meat-packer cars advertising lard, butter, cheese, eggs and, yes, even Old Dutch Cleanser (in 1929 and 1932 photos of Cudahy cars).

I have never tracked down the 1919 ICC ruling, but it doesn't seem that it was very cut-and-dried.  Or am I missing something?
-
Dave Parker
Swall Meadows, CA

Re: Hauling Sand before Coverd Hoppers Became Popular

Chet
 

Victor,

We pulled a lot of cars of sand out of a large pit at Forreston, IL and it was shipped in both hoppers and gons.   The sand was often wet which kept it from blowing.
In the early 1960's, when Interstate 80 was being built across Illinois, this pit provided both gravel and sand for the project.  There were two grades of gravel, A and B, and
sand.   The IC put on a pit job for a few summers and we would pull 60 to 70 loads out of the pit some days.  We had to line the up the cars; A, B, sand; A, B, sand; A. B, sand;
etc. for the concrete batch plant near Bloomington, IL.    The sand was in hoppers for this job. 

Chet French
Dixon, IL

Re: Photo: Vegetarian Meat Reefer - Cudahy 5177

Tony Thompson
 

Bob Chaparro wrote:

Photo: Vegetarian Meat Reefer: Cudahy 5177

Well, sort of.

This is a photo of a Cudahy produce reefer, circa 1912 or earlier. At the time Cudahy, like most of the large meat packers, used their refrigerator cars to carry and distribute produce and other non-meat products in their refrigerator cars.

      That practice was almost entirely an Armour activity, though some of the other packers handled non-meat cargo, as this photo shows.

This was before anti-trust regulations and the Supreme Court forced the large meat packers to divest themselves of many non-meat product lines and properties.

      Actually, it was the Federal Trade Commission, not the Supreme Court, that ordered Armour out of the non-meat reefer business, in 1919. By that time, no other meat companies still were operating non-meat reefers.

Tony Thompson



Re: Photo: PFE Reefer With Ventilator Hood Propped Open

Tony Thompson
 

Bob Chaparro wrote:

Photo: PFE Reefer With Ventilator Hood Propped Open

A undated photo from the Louisiana Digital Library

https://louisianadigitallibrary.org/islandora/object/hnoc-clf%3A6627

This photo can be enlarged quite a bit. Click on the photo and then scroll on it.

The car number is illegible.

The ventilator appears to be a Bohn Standard Ventilator. In the few photos I've seen I've never seen this kind of ventilator propped open in this manner.

     Car number is indeed illegible but appears to be four digits, consistent with the pre-1917 car lettering.
      The huge fleet of Dunbar Molasses and Soap Company tank cars in the distance is pretty interesting too.

Tony Thompson



Re: Frank Ellington ACF Photos

James SANDIFER
 

I think some of it ended up in Temple at the Santa Fe Archives.  However, Frank was too generous in loaning stuff out, with many items never coming back. Contact Craig Order at <cordner@...> .

 

 

J. Stephen Sandifer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Steve and Barb Hile
Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2020 12:00 PM
To: STMFC <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Frank Ellington ACF Photos

 

Back in the 1990’s, I purchased some copies of ACF builder’s photos from Frank Ellington and have some fairly extensive listings of rolls (159) and frames of 35 mm negatives that he took of ACF builder’s photos.

 

I believe that he passed away in the last few years, but wonder if anyone on this list might know what happened to that collection?

 

Thanks, as always,

Steve Hile