Re: Tichy tank car

Edward

Jeff's question can be answered from knowing the inside dimensions of any tank - length and diameter in this case.
Those dimensions would be an few inches LESS than the outside measurements.
Calculate the cubic footage of the tank interior as a cylinder. Do not include dome capacity.

100 gallons occupies13.36 cubic feet, with a water weight of 213.76 lbs.
(1 gallon is 1.336 cubic feet. A gallon of water has 16 pints weighing a pound each, if you are seeking weight).

Divide the total volume of the tank by 13.36 to get the gallonage in 100's.
Round this down to the nearest gross thousands to find a nominal gallon capacity.
These are often stated as 5,000, 6,000, 8,000,10,000 12,000 etc. but could vary by being slightly larger as well.

For water weight capacity in pounds of each nominal size tank, multiply by 16.
I think water weight for fluid loads was generally used in weight capacity calculations.
These determined journal / bearing  sizes for the trucks used under a tank car.

Other fluids may vary by weight, being lighter or heavier from their chemical composition.
A gallon of gasoline weighs less than a gallon of water, for example.
A gallon of sulfuric acid is heavier.

Ed Bommer

Re: 2018 Chicagoland MiniKit

Gary Roe

Thanks for the info Jake!

That may be a good solution.

I will pass along the dimensions of the Grandt turnbuckles if and when I can secure some.

gary roe
quincy, illinois

On Wednesday, August 14, 2019, 12:38:30 PM CDT, Jake Schaible <jjschaible@...> wrote:

I too have one of these N scale kits on my project list - with a promise to Mike Skibbe to photo journal a how to.  This same riddle - along with the recent purchase of a new paint booth waiting to be built and installed - has delayed my start.  But recently I've worked out that Fine-n-scale sells a brass etching MIGHT be a solution to the truss rods and turn buckles.

The pre bent FNR-2014 rods seem to be about 0.75" between the queen posts, and 1.6" total to the points of attachment on the ends.  But the FGEX car has different geometry - smaller - just 0.575"  between the queen posts (outside to outside) and just 1.4" total between the cross member where the ends attach.  My plan is to TRY use such ... at least for the center turn buckle detail between the queen points and try to either re bend it to fit the FGEX geometry, or slice them.

 FNR-2014 40' TRUSS-ROD CHASSIS FOR MICRO-TRAINS ICE REEFER (2 PER PKG)  https://www.finenscale.com/rollingstock.html    Never tried the Grantline HOn3 turnbuckles, which are actually HO scale for narrow gauge.  Would be interested to know their dimensions.

Re: 2018 Chicagoland MiniKit

Jake Schaible

I too have one of these N scale kits on my project list - with a promise to Mike Skibbe to photo journal a how to.  This same riddle - along with the recent purchase of a new paint booth waiting to be built and installed - has delayed my start.  But recently I've worked out that Fine-n-scale sells a brass etching MIGHT be a solution to the truss rods and turn buckles.

The pre bent FNR-2014 rods seem to be about 0.75" between the queen posts, and 1.6" total to the points of attachment on the ends.  But the FGEX car has different geometry - smaller - just 0.575"  between the queen posts (outside to outside) and just 1.4" total between the cross member where the ends attach.  My plan is to TRY use such ... at least for the center turn buckle detail between the queen points and try to either re bend it to fit the FGEX geometry, or slice them.

 FNR-2014 40' TRUSS-ROD CHASSIS FOR MICRO-TRAINS ICE REEFER (2 PER PKG)  https://www.finenscale.com/rollingstock.html    Never tried the Grantline HOn3 turnbuckles, which are actually HO scale for narrow gauge.  Would be interested to know their dimensions.

Re: Tichy tank car

Aley, Jeff A

Hi Scott,

I don’t think anybody has actually answered your question about the dimensions of the model tank.  What dimensions did you measure, and how did you convert that to gallonage?

Regards,

-Jeff

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of D. Scott Chatfield
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2019 2:15 PM
To: RealSTMFC@groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Tichy tank car

I know much has been written about this so-called USRA tank car, but I have a question.  What was the gallonage of said USRA design?

The reason I ask is I am decaling said Tichy tank car to represent a Milwaukee Road water car, which apparently was built by ACF in 1923 (if I read the fuzzy scan right).  It is a 10,000 gallon ARA III with a barrel made from four longitudinal courses.  Which basically matches the Tichy car.  But when I started putting decals on it I noticed they don't quite fall where they should.  So yes, there are several variables here, but when I measured the actual model I found its body has a volume of about 9000 to 9200 gallons.  Can't say I've ever laid eyes on a tank car that size.

So is the Tichy tank about 10% undersized?  Or is it correct for the plans for the never-built USRA tank, which I always thought was a 10,000 gallon tank.

Oh, while said Milwaukee Road water car is a post-1960 paint job, it will occasionally be switched by an NW2....

Scott Chatfield

Re: image of 50ft auto box SLSF 152805

Bill Welch

Than to owner Ron I used his Rocket Express' 3/3/3 Dreadnought end w/the MDC kit to model this car.

Bill Welch

Re: Tichy tank car

Kemal Mumcu

The Canadian cars indeed had a 54" dome, although I believe the Tichy offerings are either 52" or 60". The frames on the CGTX cars were longer than standard and purchasing an extra frame from Tichy and splicing 2 together could give you the longer frame. There are drawings of these cars available on the CP Tracks document library, available for those who sign up for a user name and password.

I haven't built any yet but I'd like to eventually.

Colin Meikle

Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Flat Car Load Placement

Gatwood, Elden J SAD

Great story, Dennis!

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Dennis Storzek
Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2019 11:57 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Flat Car Load Placement

On Wed, Aug 14, 2019 at 07:55 AM, Gatwood, Elden J SAD wrote:

I know a "high and wide" guy that was tasked with making sure things fit back in the day, that told me some hair-raising stories. Shippers would get a car, then try to load it either at greatest convenience to themselves, or to as great a capacity (weight or cube) as they wished for.

And checking clearances was important. I had a great story told to me by a Soo Line engineer...

The Soo had a secondary line to Manitowoc WI which was where they connected with the cross lake car ferries. This line also served Manitowoc Shipbuilding, which was also a maker of very large construction cranes. One day in the sixties their train had a huge slewing ring (the circular ring the crane rotates on) perched on a flatcar at the head end of the train. Nobody gave it much thought; big loads were normal out of Manitowoc. Ron says as they left the yard and started their run for the grade out of the Lake Michigan basin, as they passed under the C&NW bridge, there was a resounding DONG, and the crew turned to see the ring rolling along next to the train like a giant hula hoop. They watched as it rolled down the riverbank and flopped into the Manitowoc River. It didn't even derail the car it had been on.

Dennis Storzek

Re: Flat Car Load Placement

Charlie Vlk

All-
I can tell you from personal experience that flat cars need to be loaded in
a balanced manner....
....I have two 7 1/2" gauge flat cars equipped with pivoting boat seats for
riding cars. The first has a seat that has a more or less central column
pivot and is bolted to the center of the car. It tracks very well and does
not cause derailments.
The other has a seat that has the support column aligned at the seat back
but it is also bolted to the center of the car. This puts the weight
distribution more to one truck than the other and causes the car to derail
frequently to the point it is unusable in its purchased configuration and
has to go back into the shops for a new seat (repositioning it is not a
solution as the seat needs to be able to pivot for backup moves).
When you are the load in question the distribution of weight causing
derailments becomes a matter of great interest!!!
Charlie Vlk

PS- Yeah, I know, but even a heavy duty depressed center flat would have the

Heater Cars For Perishables

Bob Chaparro

Below is the text of an article from the November 1928 issue of the Frisco Employees Magazine. Did this system ever catch on with any railroad or rail car manufacturer?

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA

++++

Heater Cars

To properly protect perishables-such as fruits and vegetables in transit during

the winter, there must be provision made for the temporary conversion of refrigerator cars to heater cars, or other cars having permanent heater apparatus must be used. Much work is being done along the lines of development of heaters and various types using live steam or employing alcohol, kerosene, coal, or charcoal as fuel have been used; some heat storage systems have also been devised.

One system of heating used with some success derives its heat from steam supplied by the locomotive; a steam duct leading from the locomotive passes under each car to a connection with piping in the interior. A thermostat automatically shuts off the steam when the interior reaches a predetermined temperature, and prevents the car from becoming overheated. This system eliminates the fire risk and the damage to the lading often resulting from the gases produced by combustion in those types of heaters using fuels. In a test of this system, made when the outside temperature varied 48 deg. F. -from 28 deg. F. to minus 20 deg. F.-the temperature inside of the car varied only 8 deg. F.-from 52 deg. to 60 deg. F.

Another steam heating system takes advantage of the heat absorbing and retentive properties of porous terra cotta. This system makes use of the same style of train pipe, valves, traps and hose that are used on passenger train equipment. The train pipe is located below the car floor; its lowest point is at the center of the car where an automatic trap provides an outlet for the water of condensation. At each end of the car a branch pipe extends to one side and passes up through the floor to a heat storage tank or reservoir-an iron cylinder about 8 inches in diameter and about 5 feet long-located in the space below the ice bunker. This cylinder is placed at an angle so that the water in condensation flows to the lower end and passes out through the branch pipe; an automatic air valve on the upper end controls the admission of steam. The reservoir is filled with specially made porous terra cotta bricks which have corrugated surfaces, and facilitate the passage of live steam from the locomotive--or a stationary boiler-to all parts of the reservoir. This insures the absorption of heat by the bricks which enables them to radiate heat for many hours after the steam supply

has been cut off-in one instance, with the outside temperature minus 18 deg. F., a sidetracked car retained, for twenty-four hours, sufficient heat to prevent freezing. A thermometer placed in sight from the outside of the car permits an easy check on the temperature inside of the car. The action is such as to cause a mild circulation of air in the car; the cool air sinks to the floor and is drawn toward the heater, the warm air passes upward and is diffused throughout the car from above.

Re: Tichy tank car

Bruce Smith

WWII built USG-A cars built by AC&F were also similar, but as with the Canadian cars, which were built by CC&F, the under frame was different so the Tichy kit is not completely correct. Note that these cars were a "throw back" in that they were class II tank cars that were limited in the cargos that could be carried when compared to the standard class 3 (103) cars of the time.

Regards,
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of bn2204 via Groups.Io <doswift@...>
Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2019 8:07 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Tichy tank car

Scott

It's my understanding that the Tichy model represents a USRA design from WWI that was never built here in the US. However, this design was built in Canada during WWII and the Canadian cars survived into the early 1980's. If memory serves me well, the manway is 54" in dia., as where the initial Tichy model was offered with a 60" manway. (Tichy now offers the 54" manway.) The centersill and brake appliances are slightly different, and there's been discussion about using  the frame from an 8000 gal Intermountain to more accurately model the frame. But as is, the tank itself is correct. There were several Canadian owners, but CGTX and CN were the big owners of the cars. In fact, I need several of these cars myself.

http://www.nakina.net/pages/cgtx/cgtx001001.html
 www.nakina.net CGTX 1001 series: CGTX's 1000 series consisted of a mixture of 10,000 and 12,000 gallon tank cars, and were a mixture of new and used cars acquired from 1932 to 1952.

Darrall Swift - Lagrange, Ohio
Modeling the BN/MILW in North Central Montana,  Great Falls to Shelby,  Circa: August-September 1979

Re: Flat Car Load Placement

Dennis Storzek

On Wed, Aug 14, 2019 at 07:55 AM, Gatwood, Elden J SAD wrote:
I know a "high and wide" guy that was tasked with making sure things fit back in the day, that told me some hair-raising stories. Shippers would get a car, then try to load it either at greatest convenience to themselves, or to as great a capacity (weight or cube) as they wished for.
And checking clearances was important. I had a great story told to me by a Soo Line engineer...

The Soo had a secondary line to Manitowoc WI which was where they connected with the cross lake car ferries. This line also served Manitowoc Shipbuilding, which was also a maker of very large construction cranes. One day in the sixties their train had a huge slewing ring (the circular ring the crane rotates on) perched on a flatcar at the head end of the train. Nobody gave it much thought; big loads were normal out of Manitowoc. Ron says as they left the yard and started their run for the grade out of the Lake Michigan basin, as they passed under the C&NW bridge, there was a resounding DONG, and the crew turned to see the ring rolling along next to the train like a giant hula hoop. They watched as it rolled down the riverbank and flopped into the Manitowoc River. It didn't even derail the car it had been on.

Dennis Storzek

Re: 2018 Chicagoland MiniKit

Bob Webber

UTOPIA  was lot 2122 plan 1155a and negative is 3159.  We have floor plan, etc.

Sent from BlueMail

On Aug 14, 2019, at 9:18 AM, "Claus Schlund \(HGM\)" <claus@...> wrote:
Hi Don and List Members,

Yes, UTOPIA was a real Pullman car, and the builders photo does indeed show all those windows in the baggage door! The builders photo shows the inscription 3159 L 2122 which may possibly mean plan 3159 lot 2122

Claus Schlund

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2019 6:23 AM
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] 2018 Chicagoland MiniKit

Claus, your photo of "Utopia" prompts a question I just have to ask. Did anyone really ever create
a door for a baggage section with as much glass in it? It looks like a moving target! What is the
prototype for this car?

Thanks,  Don Valentine

Re: Flat Car Load Placement

Gatwood, Elden J SAD

Nelson;

Truth is indeed stranger...

To add to what Bruce wrote:

I know a "high and wide" guy that was tasked with making sure things fit back in the day, that told me some hair-raising stories. Shippers would get a car, then try to load it either at greatest convenience to themselves, or to as great a capacity (weight or cube) as they wished for.

There is a collection worth of photos of loads gone bad in the PRRT&HS archives. That included loads that slipped off, or through a car end, toppled loads, shifted loads, and loads that rolled around in box cars and destroyed car interiors, sides and ends. Shippers did not usually follow the AAR rules to the letter, but winged it.

An "over the trucks" example, but balanced, was the loading of hot coil, in small groupings, at each end. This was quite common. I have several of those modeled.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Nelson Moyer
Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2019 8:36 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Flat Car Load Placement

That suggests that since a concentrated load in excess of 50000 lbs. can't be distributed or placed over one of the trucks, the shipper would need a car with a higher center load capacity.

Nelson Moyer

-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2019 6:37 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io; RealSTMFC@groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Flat Car Load Placement

Nelson;

Loading at one end, unless balanced, was highly frowned on. I know we've seen a few of those loads at one end, but it was not acceptable practice. The unloaded end could lift under certain circumstances, and potentially cause a derailment. Loading and securing instructions from the AAR show all loads centered, with the exception (theoretically) of diagonal loads. The ORERs also show info on how some individual flats and gons should have the load distributed. Depressed center and well flats were especially vulnerable to collapse if loaded wrong.

Elden Gatwood

image of 50ft auto box SLSF 152805

Claus Schlund \(HGM\)

Hi List Members,

We also can see this nice image of 50ft auto box SLSF 152805 at the link below...

Enjoy!

Claus Schlund

Re: Flat Car Load Placement

Bruce Smith

Nelson, Folks,

On Aug 14, 2019, at 7:36 AM, Nelson Moyer <npmoyer@...> wrote:

That suggests that since a concentrated load in excess of 50000 lbs. can't be distributed or placed over one of the trucks, the shipper would need a car with a higher center load capacity.

EXACTLY!  So, the deal here is that the optimal loading position for a flat car for ride characteristics is the center of the car, BUT, almost all flat cars were restricted to significantly less than their capacity if the load was carried on the center of the span. What we have are two competing issues. NOTE, that a load, at the center of the span, placed on stringers or other supports at 1/3 and 2/3 of the span is NOT loading the center of the span. There were a few, very specifically and typically short cars that were designed to carry the full load at the center of the span. The Milwaukee Road welded gun flats (ancient Roundhouse car) and the PRR F22/23 “gun flats” are examples.

For modeling, I guess load weight is a moot point, as few of us calculate load weight and assign a load to a specific car on that basis.

Hmmmm… I do.. and it bugs me when I see obvious fails, such as the use of a 70 ton flat to carry one M4 Sherman tank (which is too little load for efficient car use).

I guess the best alternative to load weight calculation is to use photos of actual loads together with the AAR and ORER loading instructions as the inspiration for out loads. Actually, that approach can result in some improbably loads like the M&StL culvert flat car load Clark Probst posted to the Proto-Layout group that must have challenged height clearance limits. I suspect a modeler would be ridiculed for building a load like that. Sometimes truth is stranger than fiction.

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."

Re: 2018 Chicagoland MiniKit

Claus Schlund \(HGM\)

﻿
Hi Don and List Members,

Yes, UTOPIA was a real Pullman car, and the builders photo does indeed show all those windows in the baggage door! The builders photo shows the inscription 3159 L 2122 which may possibly mean plan 3159 lot 2122

Claus Schlund

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2019 6:23 AM
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] 2018 Chicagoland MiniKit

Claus, your photo of "Utopia" prompts a question I just have to ask. Did anyone really ever create
a door for a baggage section with as much glass in it? It looks like a moving target! What is the
prototype for this car?

Thanks,  Don Valentine

Re: Kids, Don't Try this at Home: UP Prototype...ATSF Paint & Lettering

tyesac@aol.com

Bern,

Being a Santa Fe prototype modeler, I'm used to manufacturers painting distinctly non Santa Fe equipment in various Santa Fe schemes.  Light blue stock cars, and "big circle" heralds on 36' truss rod box cars come to mind.  Lucky for those of us that have an interest in Santa Fe, there have been a huge amount of published information based on a lot of well done research.  Too bad many manufacturers are reluctant (or unaware of) to reach out to tap into that knowledge.   But since money talks, we can only patronize the ones that have gotten it right.   We're not all "train set bozos".

Tom Casey
Dave Soderblom wrote:
"Please say more so I can understand your point..."

Trix invested a lot of money to badly tool (the roofs in particular are really bad representations of the rectangular panel roof) a prototype that are distinctly Union Pacific (including alternate center rivets), only to cave in and slap Santa Fe on it, including a bogus car class (Bx-36 is a USRA rebuild).  Monumental fail on many levels, and a license to steal money from the luckless bastard who buys this thing.

The other freight cars in this issue (the auto car and PFE steel reefer) have significant issues as well.

Ben Hom

-----Original Message-----
From: Benjamin Hom <b.hom@...>
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Sent: Tue, Aug 13, 2019 6:25 pm
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Kids, Don't Try this at Home: UP Prototype...ATSF Paint & Lettering

Dave Soderblom wrote:
"Please say more so I can understand your point..."

Trix invested a lot of money to badly tool (the roofs in particular are really bad representations of the rectangular panel roof) a prototype that are distinctly Union Pacific (including alternate center rivets), only to cave in and slap Santa Fe on it, including a bogus car class (Bx-36 is a USRA rebuild).  Monumental fail on many levels, and a license to steal money from the luckless bastard who buys this thing.

The other freight cars in this issue (the auto car and PFE steel reefer) have significant issues as well.

Ben Hom

Re: Tichy tank car

bn2204

Scott

It's my understanding that the Tichy model represents a USRA design from WWI that was never built here in the US. However, this design was built in Canada during WWII and the Canadian cars survived into the early 1980's. If memory serves me well, the manway is 54" in dia., as where the initial Tichy model was offered with a 60" manway. (Tichy now offers the 54" manway.) The centersill and brake appliances are slightly different, and there's been discussion about using  the frame from an 8000 gal Intermountain to more accurately model the frame. But as is, the tank itself is correct. There were several Canadian owners, but CGTX and CN were the big owners of the cars. In fact, I need several of these cars myself. The model best matches CGT'X 1600-1799 (see link)

http://www.nakina.net/pages/cgtx/cgtx001001.html

Darrall Swift - Lagrange, Ohio
Modeling the BN/MILW in North Central Montana,  Great Falls to Shelby,  Circa: August-September 1979

Re: Flat Car Load Placement

Nelson Moyer

That suggests that since a concentrated load in excess of 50000 lbs. can't be distributed or placed over one of the trucks, the shipper would need a car with a higher center load capacity.

Nelson Moyer

-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2019 6:37 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io; RealSTMFC@groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Flat Car Load Placement

Nelson;

Loading at one end, unless balanced, was highly frowned on. I know we've seen a few of those loads at one end, but it was not acceptable practice. The unloaded end could lift under certain circumstances, and potentially cause a derailment. Loading and securing instructions from the AAR show all loads centered, with the exception (theoretically) of diagonal loads. The ORERs also show info on how some individual flats and gons should have the load distributed. Depressed center and well flats were especially vulnerable to collapse if loaded wrong.

Elden Gatwood

Re: Flat Car Load Placement

Gatwood, Elden J SAD

Nelson;

Loading at one end, unless balanced, was highly frowned on. I know we've seen a few of those loads at one end, but it was not acceptable practice. The unloaded end could lift under certain circumstances, and potentially cause a derailment. Loading and securing instructions from the AAR show all loads centered, with the exception (theoretically) of diagonal loads. The ORERs also show info on how some individual flats and gons should have the load distributed. Depressed center and well flats were especially vulnerable to collapse if loaded wrong.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Nelson Moyer
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2019 10:44 PM
To: RealSTMFC@groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Flat Car Load Placement

A while back, there was a thread on transformer loads on flat cars, and there was no consensus on where to place a single heavy load, i.e. in the center of the car or over one of the trucks. I was cutting out decals for the Owl Mountain SP F-50- 10 flat car tonight, and there is a stencil to be placed on the center of the side sill that reads:

CONCENTRATED LOAD HERE MUST

NOT EXCEED 50000 LBS

The car has a capacity of 100000 lbs. and a load limit of 134900 lbs. with a light weight of 34100 lbs., so any single load between 50000-100000 lbs. would be placed over one of the trucks. I don't know if this load restriction is unique to the SP, or SP is following a standard practice for heavy single loads. Apparently the fishbelly center sill on the F-5--10 had a deflection at the center of a linear load restriction of 50000 lbs.

Nelson Moyer