Date   
Re: Photo: Painting A Boxcar On The RIP Track

Brian Termunde
 

Also, if you look at the upper right corner of the car, the color looks blackish or at least dark while the rest of the looks freshly painted. At least that is how it appears to me.

Take Care,
 
Brian R. Termunde
Midvale, Utah

Re: Photo: Painting A Boxcar On The RIP Track

gary laakso
 

Plus there is snow at the top of the door track.  Thanks, for the better quality picture, Bruce!

 

Gary Laakso

Northwest of Mike Brock

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Robert Heninger
Sent: Monday, October 14, 2019 2:48 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Painting A Boxcar On The RIP Track

 

Oh, I should mention one other thing: I doubt this particular car got it's roof repainted: I've seen a few photos of freshly repainted steam era house cars where it's obvious the roof didn't get repainted, just the visible sides and ends.

Regards,
Bob Heninger
Minot, ND

Re: Photo: Painting A Boxcar On The RIP Track

Roger Huber
 

The pipe paint sprayer apparently was a common thing back in the day. I have seen photos of WM hoppers and N&W hoppers being painted as such. I can see this as a faster and safer way to cover something as large as a freight car. 

Roger Huber
Deer Creek Locomotive Works


On Monday, October 14, 2019, 04:57:43 PM CDT, Tony Thompson <tony@...> wrote:


Sorry, Don, this was a common painting technique. Both SP and PFE used it, to name two.
Tony Thompson 


On Oct 14, 2019, at 9:30 PM, Donald B. Valentine via Groups.Io <riverman_vt@...> wrote:


Hello Bruce,

    There is no speculation involved here at all. To me the man is NOT spray painting. Look hard at the equipment being
used. Have your or anyone else ever seen a spray gun with a nozzle at the end of a pipe some 8 to 10 feet long? I have
not. Anything is possible but we have a piece of equipment at one place I work that look almost exactly like what it seen
in the photo but it is a sand blast unit, not a sprat paint unit. Having a Doctorate in Inorganic Chemistry I have spoken
with Bill Aldrich about h the photo. He feels it "could" be a paint system but seriously questions its use outdoors in
weather cold enough to have snow on the ground. It would require well thinned paint and good pressure to keep the
paint particles for precipitating from whatever medium they were carried in and questions how long one could paint like
this without things plugging up badly as soon as the flow was shut off. It is too bad I cannpt enlarge the photo to get a
better view of it but It is going to take at least that to convince me this is not a sandblast rig very similar to the one I
am familiar with.

Re: Photo: Painting A Boxcar On The RIP Track

Tony Thompson
 

Sorry, Don, this was a common painting technique. Both SP and PFE used it, to name two.
Tony Thompson 


On Oct 14, 2019, at 9:30 PM, Donald B. Valentine via Groups.Io <riverman_vt@...> wrote:


Hello Bruce,

    There is no speculation involved here at all. To me the man is NOT spray painting. Look hard at the equipment being
used. Have your or anyone else ever seen a spray gun with a nozzle at the end of a pipe some 8 to 10 feet long? I have
not. Anything is possible but we have a piece of equipment at one place I work that look almost exactly like what it seen
in the photo but it is a sand blast unit, not a sprat paint unit. Having a Doctorate in Inorganic Chemistry I have spoken
with Bill Aldrich about h the photo. He feels it "could" be a paint system but seriously questions its use outdoors in
weather cold enough to have snow on the ground. It would require well thinned paint and good pressure to keep the
paint particles for precipitating from whatever medium they were carried in and questions how long one could paint like
this without things plugging up badly as soon as the flow was shut off. It is too bad I cannpt enlarge the photo to get a
better view of it but It is going to take at least that to convince me this is not a sandblast rig very similar to the one I
am familiar with.

Re: Photo: Painting A Boxcar On The RIP Track

Bruce Smith
 

Don,

I hope that you can appreciate that there are a lot of things that you have never seen that still manage to exist ;)

Thank you for the alternative explanation of sand blasting, and it has merit, but I do not think that it is correct. Here is the full sized image (clicked the link on the top right of the photo)

A careful look will show you that there is a stream of something exiting the tip of the pipe. Now, I’ll admit that it could be abrasive media, but I doubt it. The material appears to be the same color as the very, very freshly painted car side to the left of the worker, whereas to the right of the worker is a small amount of already prepped car side. In addition, there is no accumulation of any sort of abrasive material on the ground under the car. 

Regards,
Bruce
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL

On Oct 14, 2019, at 3:30 PM, Donald B. Valentine via Groups.Io <riverman_vt@...> wrote:

Hello Bruce,

    There is no speculation involved here at all. To me the man is NOT spray painting. Look hard at the equipment being
used. Have your or anyone else ever seen a spray gun with a nozzle at the end of a pipe some 8 to 10 feet long? I have
not. Anything is possible but we have a piece of equipment at one place I work that look almost exactly like what it seen
in the photo but it is a sand blast unit, not a sprat paint unit. Having a Doctorate in Inorganic Chemistry I have spoken
with Bill Aldrich about h the photo. He feels it "could" be a paint system but seriously questions its use outdoors in
weather cold enough to have snow on the ground. It would require well thinned paint and good pressure to keep the
paint particles for precipitating from whatever medium they were carried in and questions how long one could paint like
this without things plugging up badly as soon as the flow was shut off. It is too bad I cannpt enlarge the photo to get a
better view of it but It is going to take at least that to convince me this is not a sandblast rig very similar to the one I
am familiar with.

Re: Photo: Painting A Boxcar On The RIP Track

mopacfirst
 

In Terry Metcalf's Union Pacific 1936-1951 book, there is a photo of a guy painting a freight car while standing on the ground, and he's wielding a similar extension nozzle.  .Presumably the color is slightly different.

I suspect this method of painting was fairly common for cars painted in the open air.  The airless sprayer was already a fairly established technology by the 1930s.

Ron Merrick

Re: Photo: Painting A Boxcar On The RIP Track

Robert Heninger
 

Oh, I should mention one other thing: I doubt this particular car got it's roof repainted: I've seen a few photos of freshly repainted steam era house cars where it's obvious the roof didn't get repainted, just the visible sides and ends.

Regards,
Bob Heninger
Minot, ND

Re: Photo: Painting A Boxcar On The RIP Track

Robert Heninger
 

Don,

If you download the magazine article in Mr. Dorman's post above, there is a reproduction of a drawing from the August 1899 Railroad Car Journal showing just such a spray painting apparatus being used on the Santa Fe, and in Terry Metcalfe's excellent UP freight car book, there is a picture of a worker using a very similar long necked spray gun to paint a UP steel boxcar in the late 1930s. The chief advantage to the long reach is that the worker can paint the car in its entirety while standing on the ground, without needing to erect scaffolding to allow brushpainting. As labor costs steadily increased, railroads looked for ways to improve efficiencies anywhere they could.

Given that Mr. Delano was a documentary photographer, I trust the caption given with the photo, that states the worker is painting the car. I was taken aback when I first saw that photo too, as I wouldn't think that cars would be painted outdoors in February in Chicago. But, it was 1943, and there was a war on. It doesn't look to me like he's sandblasting the car: there's no lettering on it anywhere, and that paint is nice and shiny. 

Just my two cents.

Regards,
Bob Heninger
Minot, ND

Re: Photo: Painting A Boxcar On The RIP Track

Donald B. Valentine
 

Hello Bruce,

    There is no speculation involved here at all. To me the man is NOT spray painting. Look hard at the equipment being
used. Have your or anyone else ever seen a spray gun with a nozzle at the end of a pipe some 8 to 10 feet long? I have
not. Anything is possible but we have a piece of equipment at one place I work that look almost exactly like what it seen
in the photo but it is a sand blast unit, not a sprat paint unit. Having a Doctorate in Inorganic Chemistry I have spoken
with Bill Aldrich about h the photo. He feels it "could" be a paint system but seriously questions its use outdoors in
weather cold enough to have snow on the ground. It would require well thinned paint and good pressure to keep the
paint particles for precipitating from whatever medium they were carried in and questions how long one could paint like
this without things plugging up badly as soon as the flow was shut off. It is too bad I cannpt enlarge the photo to get a
better view of it but It is going to take at least that to convince me this is not a sandblast rig very similar to the one I
am familiar with.

Re: Swift Reefers

Dave Parker
 

I agree with Doug on almost all most points.  I can't speak to the steel cars, but creating an accurate tabulation of just the 37' wood cars is worse than daunting.  For reasons unknown, Swift (GA) stopped including car counts in the 1930 ORER (they are in my 1925 and 26).  They are also absent in my 1935 and 1940 registers.  Doug's message indicates that the counts were back by 1943 (they are in my 1945 as well).

Given the number of cars that were built in the 1925-35 time-frame, the acquisition of the fleet by GA, and the apparent renumbering of many/most/all of the the pre-GA cars, I despair of being able to construct a decent timeline from the 1920s into the 1940s.

One side note:  the MAC/ARA/AAR car classes evolved quite a bit over time.  The lineup of reefer classes in my 1931 Cyc is rather different than that from 1912 to 1922.   Ian Cranstone has diligently tabulated when the various classes appeared (and disappeared) from the ORERs:

http://www.nakina.net/other/aartype.html#Reefer

It seems that the RAM and RSM classes did not come on line until ~1943.  Prior, cars with meat rails did not have a specific designation.

--
Dave Parker
Swall Meadows, CA

Re: When did USRE Rebuild begin to appear

Tim O'Connor
 


No, there is no such implication. That's what happens when you take things out
of context. The thread was about the origin of the USRE "brand name".

The TC cars were built by Pullman Standard but they were not PS-1 design. They
originally had Pullman carbuilder ends and roofs, but appear that some or all of
them received diagonal panel roofs from USRE.




On 10/14/2019 7:28 AM, Benjamin Scanlon via Groups.Io wrote:

[Edited Message Follows]


-- My earliest photo of a car with the USRE "United States" map on the side is from 1962.
The LS&I sold PS-1 box cars to USRE in 1961. And I have a note that says Tennessee Central
500-564 were leased from USRE in 1958. I evidently got this TC information from a letter to
the editor written by Stephen D. Johnson and published in the May 1989 (or possibly 1987, I
have conflicting notes) Model Railroading magazine. :-[ Eric Neubauer noted that the TC cars
were from USRE "Lot 179" so I'm guessing that means they were already in business for a while.

Tim O'Connor

Tim, are you saying/implying that TC leased PS-1s from USRE? Or other types? 

Cheers, 
Ben Scanlon
Tottenham, England


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

Re: Swift Reefers

Douglas Harding
 

There is an error in Martin’s chart from his RMJ article, and maybe more than one. According to my 1943 and 1953 ORER the 8200-9699 series of Swift Meat Reefrs were RAM cars, ie equipped with brine tanks. These cars are 37’ 5”, a  standard length for a wood meat reefer, not 41’ 4” as Martin’s chart shows.

 

Martin must have read the wrong line in an ORER as he prepared his chart. There were very few RS cars in the Swift fleet.

8000-8099  a 41’6” car, number of cars 25 in 1943, no number shown in 1953

8100-8199  a 40’3” car, number of cars 75 in 1943, 6 cars in 1953

6000-6004  40’3” car, total of 3 cars in 1943, not shown in 1953

24000-24049, a 41’6” car, number of cars 11 in 1953

24050-24074, a 41’6” car, no cars shown in 1953

24075-24099, a 41’6” car, shows 1 car in 1953

 

And RA cars 24100-24149 shows 1 car in 1953

 

Note the RS and RA cars are 41’ cars, most everything else is 37’, until you get into later built cars except for one block of 39’ cars. Both the 41’ cars and 39’ cars did not exist in 1948, indicating they were newer cars, and may even have been of steel sided construction.

 

A RS car did not have meat rails, as would be found in a RSM or RAM car. Note the door is taller on an RS car. The RSM has a shorter door, to allow for the overhead meat rails.

 

The General American cars, esp the earlier cars, appear to be a mishmash of many different cars, some of unknown heritage. Martin’s Chart, for what it’s worth, only shows series that had a 100 cars or more. Many of the series in the ORER had far less than 100 cars, some only had a handful, or even a single car. General American was in the lease business and lease could vary in both length and number of cars. Union Refrigeration Transit also acquired many used cars from a variety of sources. As leases expired cars were repainted, often renumbered as they went the shops. As leases could be as short as month and for very few cars, it is very difficult to track reefers in lease service.

 

Martin Loften published a 3 part series on Meat Reefers in the Feb Mar Apr 1992 Mainline Modeler. These articles formed the nucleus of his article on Meat Reefers in the Vol 2 Symposium on Railroad History, ed by Tony Thompson. In which Martin states: “The Swift fleet was a hodgepodge of different cars in the late 1940s.”

 

Attempting to create an accurate listing of Swift Reefers will be a daunting task. I don’t know what Martin’s source of information was. Obviously he used ORER’s, but he must have had other sources as well, as he lists numbers of cars in some series where the ORER’s I have do not show car totals.

 

Doug  Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

Re: Swift Reefers

Bob Chaparro
 

I noticed the Swift reefers in the table from the 8200-9699 series are RS and not RSM reefers.
Does anyone have additional information on these cars? I assume they were used for boxed meat.
Tim O'Connor has a photo (below) in his collection of SRLX 8602. This is an example of the cars.
Bob Chaparro
Hemet, CA

Re: Swift Reefers

Douglas Harding
 

Actually Epstein shows both 1930 and 1931.

p. 44 “The Swift Line, acquired in 1931, is leased exclusively to Swift and Company.

p. 95 writing about individual shippers who sought to have General American take over and operate cars for them. “The first such major take-over was that of the car line previously owned and operated by Swift and Company, the Chicago meat packers. This transaction, consummated in 1930, involved 5,476 refrigerator cars and 145 tank cars.”

p. 158 Chronology list shows 1930 Swift and Company line purchased

p. 174 Table 3 shows the number of reefers owned by GATC went from 11296 in 1930 to 17910 in 1931, increase of 6614 cars, of which the 5476 from Swift would have been the major part of this increase.

 

I speculated that the transaction began in 1930 and perhaps was completed in 1931, hence the two dates. But no specific date is given, just the years.

 

Of interest: p. 68 table shows Swift Refrigerator line received 450 new reefers from East Chicago in 1937

 

Doug  Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Jim Gates via Groups.Io
Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2019 10:51 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Swift Reefers

 

Epstein's GATX history lists it as 1930. But it also lists ownership of 11,296 refrigerator cars at the end of 1930 and 17,910 at the end of 1931, so they may not have officially transferred the cars until 1931.

Jim Gates

On Sunday, October 13, 2019, 8:10:04 PM CDT, Dave Parker via Groups.Io <spottab@...> wrote:

 

 

Guy:

In his 1993 RMJ article, Martin gave the sale date as 1931.  Hendrickson and Kaminski's billboard reefer book gives it as 1930.

My 12/30 ORER doesn't exhibit any hint of the sale, but Swift is clearly listed under GA by 7/35.

I can't offhand recall any other sources on this question.  

With best regards.
--
Dave Parker
Swall Meadows, CA

Re: Lehigh Valley 4-Bay Hopper / Tennessee Central #8125

Eric Hansmann
 

This is pretty interesting. Now I need to dig up the pair of hoppers from my stash and decal them for the TN Central so they can be used on a local model railroad.

 

BTW, I’m sure there are at least 6 or 7 additional TC modelers in metro-Nashville.

 

 

Eric Hansmann

Murfreesboro, TN

35 miles SE of Nashville

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Benjamin Scanlon via Groups.Io
Sent: Monday, October 14, 2019 6:22 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Lehigh Valley 4-Bay Hopper / Tennessee Central #8125

 

Make that 3.6.  Interesting railroad, TC. Like they  transplanted a small NE anthracite hauler to the South.  Thanks for the photo. 
--
Ben Scanlon
Tottenham, England

Re: When did USRE Rebuild begin to appear

Benjamin Scanlon
 
Edited


-- My earliest photo of a car with the USRE "United States" map on the side is from 1962.
The LS&I sold PS-1 box cars to USRE in 1961. And I have a note that says Tennessee Central
500-564 were leased from USRE in 1958. I evidently got this TC information from a letter to
the editor written by Stephen D. Johnson and published in the May 1989 (or possibly 1987, I
have conflicting notes) Model Railroading magazine. :-[ Eric Neubauer noted that the TC cars
were from USRE "Lot 179" so I'm guessing that means they were already in business for a while.

Tim O'Connor

Tim, are you saying/implying that TC leased PS-1s from USRE? Or other types? 

Cheers, 
Ben Scanlon
Tottenham, England

Re: Lehigh Valley 4-Bay Hopper / Tennessee Central #8125

Benjamin Scanlon
 

Make that 3.6.  Interesting railroad, TC. Like they  transplanted a small NE anthracite hauler to the South.  Thanks for the photo. 
--
Ben Scanlon
Tottenham, England

Re: Swift Reefers

Jim Gates
 

Epstein's GATX history lists it as 1930. But it also lists ownership of 11,296 refrigerator cars at the end of 1930 and 17,910 at the end of 1931, so they may not have officially transferred the cars until 1931.

Jim Gates


On Sunday, October 13, 2019, 8:10:04 PM CDT, Dave Parker via Groups.Io <spottab@...> wrote:


Guy:

In his 1993 RMJ article, Martin gave the sale date as 1931.  Hendrickson and Kaminski's billboard reefer book gives it as 1930.

My 12/30 ORER doesn't exhibit any hint of the sale, but Swift is clearly listed under GA by 7/35.

I can't offhand recall any other sources on this question.  

With best regards.
--
Dave Parker
Swall Meadows, CA

Re: Reefer: Reverse Opening Hatch Cover

brianleppert@att.net
 

And the enlarged photo shows the two box cars ahead have some kind of roof hatches as well as other odd details.

Brian Leppert
Carson City, NV

Re: Swift Reefers

Dave Parker
 

Guy:

In his 1993 RMJ article, Martin gave the sale date as 1931.  Hendrickson and Kaminski's billboard reefer book gives it as 1930.

My 12/30 ORER doesn't exhibit any hint of the sale, but Swift is clearly listed under GA by 7/35.

I can't offhand recall any other sources on this question.  

With best regards.
--
Dave Parker
Swall Meadows, CA