Date   
Re: C&O Lake Michigan Ferries, was Crappy Job

Daniel A. Mitchell
 

Just a slight correction/addition to an earlier post … the SS Badger Skinner Uniflo engines ARE “reciprocating” compound steam engines. So, in-service coal-fired reciprocating steam-engine powered vessels are not yet “gone from the Great Lakes”. Seriously endangered though!

The SS Spartan has similar engines, though she is now out of service.

Another note: The Chief Wawatam had THREE engines … two in the stern as usual, and one in the bow for a bow propellor. The front propellor was part of why she was such a powerful icebreaker (second only to the USCGC Mackinaw). The forward prop pulled water out from under the ice in front of the ship, weakening it. The front engine and prop were not used during the ice-free months.

I spent several hours in the Chief’s rear engine room, and was amazed how smooth and quiet these two big steam engines were when running. One had no trouble conversing in a normal voice. There was just a very low frequency “thud-thud” sound (more of a feeling than a sound) and a bunch of hissing, whooshing, and sliding noises.

Dan Mitchell
==========



On Sep 12, 2019, at 8:50 AM, Bob Weston via Groups.Io <oandle@...> wrote:

Hi Guys! There's a web site loaded with info on the Great Lakes Car Ferries, it even explains the Skinner Uni Flo engine which I believe was made in Erie, Pa. The web site can be found at carferries.com
Bob Weston

Re: C&O Lake Michigan Ferries, was Crappy Job

Alex Huff
 

One of the Chief Wawatam's many claims to fame is that it was the last hand-fired coal burning vessel in US commercial service.  Normally, as Dan posted above, the forward pair of boilers which supplied steam to the front prop were not used except in the winter to break ice.  Since the Chief loaded from the bow, which had a hinged sea gate for rough weather crossings, the forward prop also helped remove ice from the ferry slips.  There was one noteworthy summer trip from St. Ignace to Mackinaw City which used all three engines, a total of 4,500 hp.  The occasion was a race against the first built new automobile/truck ferry to operate at the Straits.  It was a Diesel powered boat and replaced clapped out, older railroad ferries in that service.  The Captain advised the crew that both boats would be leaving St. Ignace at the same time, which did not normally occur.  The firemen piled coal soaked with oil next to the six boilers' fire doors.  The Diesel ferry was double ended, so it had an early lead on the Chief which had to back out and wye before it took off in pursuit.  I talked to some of the crew who either told or were working at the time that the Chief caught up about midway.  The Captain ordered a course correction so the Chief would pass upwind of the white painted auto ferry.  The firemen were over firing the boilers and the stacks were pouring out black smoke.  It was the claim of the Chief's crew that the state boat was never as white afterwards.

The forward engine is the one preserved at the maritime museum.  It is big enough the museum had to expand its building.  Now chain driven by an electric motor, when visitors push a button the crankshaft rotates and the connecting and piston rods move up and down.  The pistons of three different diameters lie nearby.  At a lower level, the propeller shaft sticks out through a wall.  Attached is a fiberglass replica of the forward prop.  It is a bit eerie to see it suddenly begin to turn.  
Alex Huff         

Re: C&O Lake Michigan Ferries, was Crappy Job

Daniel A. Mitchell
 

Nice report. At some time I must get over there and see this exhibit. Thanks,

Dan Mitchell
==========

On Sep 12, 2019, at 3:04 PM, Alex Huff <dsrc512@...> wrote:

One of the Chief Wawatam's many claims to fame is that it was the last hand-fired coal burning vessel in US commercial service.  Normally, as Dan posted above, the forward pair of boilers which supplied steam to the front prop were not used except in the winter to break ice.  Since the Chief loaded from the bow, which had a hinged sea gate for rough weather crossings, the forward prop also helped remove ice from the ferry slips.  There was one noteworthy summer trip from St. Ignace to Mackinaw City which used all three engines, a total of 4,500 hp.  The occasion was a race against the first built new automobile/truck ferry to operate at the Straits.  It was a Diesel powered boat and replaced clapped out, older railroad ferries in that service.  The Captain advised the crew that both boats would be leaving St. Ignace at the same time, which did not normally occur.  The firemen piled coal soaked with oil next to the six boilers' fire doors.  The Diesel ferry was double ended, so it had an early lead on the Chief which had to back out and wye before it took off in pursuit.  I talked to some of the crew who either told or were working at the time that the Chief caught up about midway.  The Captain ordered a course correction so the Chief would pass upwind of the white painted auto ferry.  The firemen were over firing the boilers and the stacks were pouring out black smoke.  It was the claim of the Chief's crew that the state boat was never as white afterwards.

The forward engine is the one preserved at the maritime museum.  It is big enough the museum had to expand its building.  Now chain driven by an electric motor, when visitors push a button the crankshaft rotates and the connecting and piston rods move up and down.  The pistons of three different diameters lie nearby.  At a lower level, the propeller shaft sticks out through a wall.  Attached is a fiberglass replica of the forward prop.  It is a bit eerie to see it suddenly begin to turn.  
Alex Huff         

Re: C&O Lake Michigan Ferries, was Crappy Job

Claus Schlund \(HGM\)
 


Hi Alex and List Members,
 
Thanks Alex, what a great story!
 
Claus Schlund
 
 

----- Original Message -----
From: Alex Huff
Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2019 3:04 PM
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] C&O Lake Michigan Ferries, was Crappy Job

One of the Chief Wawatam's many claims to fame is that it was the last hand-fired coal burning vessel in US commercial service.  Normally, as Dan posted above, the forward pair of boilers which supplied steam to the front prop were not used except in the winter to break ice.  Since the Chief loaded from the bow, which had a hinged sea gate for rough weather crossings, the forward prop also helped remove ice from the ferry slips.  There was one noteworthy summer trip from St. Ignace to Mackinaw City which used all three engines, a total of 4,500 hp.  The occasion was a race against the first built new automobile/truck ferry to operate at the Straits.  It was a Diesel powered boat and replaced clapped out, older railroad ferries in that service.  The Captain advised the crew that both boats would be leaving St. Ignace at the same time, which did not normally occur.  The firemen piled coal soaked with oil next to the six boilers' fire doors.  The Diesel ferry was double ended, so it had an early lead on the Chief which had to back out and wye before it took off in pursuit.  I talked to some of the crew who either told or were working at the time that the Chief caught up about midway.  The Captain ordered a course correction so the Chief would pass upwind of the white painted auto ferry.  The firemen were over firing the boilers and the stacks were pouring out black smoke.  It was the claim of the Chief's crew that the state boat was never as white afterwards.

The forward engine is the one preserved at the maritime museum.  It is big enough the museum had to expand its building.  Now chain driven by an electric motor, when visitors push a button the crankshaft rotates and the connecting and piston rods move up and down.  The pistons of three different diameters lie nearby.  At a lower level, the propeller shaft sticks out through a wall.  Attached is a fiberglass replica of the forward prop.  It is a bit eerie to see it suddenly begin to turn.  
Alex Huff         

Pullman Library Collections

Bob Webber
 

We have often been asked about the "stuff" we have. We've had various resources, but this is the first time we've actually had a high-level index) - and an inventory will be forthcoming due to our upcoming move.

If you go here:
http://www.pullmanlibrary.org/IndexCollection.htm
you will see the 2nd pass at the basic collection "index".

While we don't have a drawing index (that is an index for every single drawing), we will have a tube/drawer index, which will make finding things much easier. There are over 60,000 drawings scanned, and those *are* indexed, of course.

As an example, a Standard Steel Freight car drawing numbered (for illustrative purposes only) 51234 may be in any of 10-20 tubes and 4 drawers. And...some of those tubes are filed with the Passenger Car tubes because they stuffed two rolls of drawings (one freight, one passenger) into one tube. Nor can we simply put everything in numerical order - aside from the man-weeks of labor involved, the Standard Steel drawings are simply numbered sequentially, so a 9"x12" drawing of a hand grab may well be the next number up from a General Arrangement drawing that's 5' x 3'. And there are well over 2500 tubes and a few dozen drawers (of Standard Steel alone).

I *do* plan on re-sorting the Budd drawings once we enter the new facility (TBD) - the storage materials and numbering systems demand that (they are indexed by the pallet and location on that pallet as they were shipped by Bombardier).

We do anticipate finding "new and amazing" things as we prepare to move and as the move takes place. We've already stumbled upon a few tubes of here-to-fore-assumed-lost early freight D sized drawings.

The end result *should*, in time and theory, result in quicker fulfillment. HOWEVER!!!

Over the next year or more, we will, of necessity, have to slow our order fulfillment considerably, as we prepare,conserve, pack, move, unpack, conserve, and such - getting into the new building (3 of 4 walls up, roof on, cement floor in to date).

We will eventually, of necessity, be working weekends...volunteers are always welcome (caveats, limits, exclusions, hotdogs, soft drinks, popcorn, movies - apply).

Bob Webber

M of W Crane 08...

Jack Burgess
 

I’ve been working on a crane which was owned by the Yosemite Valley Railroad. For the past week or so I’ve been concentrating on the “flat car” frame for the crane. It was constructed from brass flat stock and brass channel. One of the jobs was adding Archer rivets to the sides. Getting the smallest rivets (in line with the bolsters) with only four rivets on a thin strip of carrier was frustrating…there just wasn’t enough carrier material to keep from breaking the strips apart. So I cut some more small strips and brushed on a coat of Vallejo acyclic gross varnish. Once dry, they went on without problems.

 

Just an idea to keep in mind…

 

Jack Burgess

covered hopper grays

Eric Mumper
 

Group,

Over the last few years there have been a lot of new model paints for regular old freight car color to cover all the variations.  Is there anything like that for covered hopper grays?  While going through RP Cyc 27 there are such color call-outs as Steel Gard Gray (medium gray shade) (the one I am looking for) and Pittsburgh Gray #44122 (medium gray shade).  Are there any known references for these?  Are there any valid model paint colors?  I do see Scalecoat has 2084 UP hopper car gray.  Matching by eye is out for all of these as the only photos are B&W.  Intermountain and any other company doing covered hoppers must have gotten info from somewhere (whether it is accurate or not is another matter.)  It would be nice to have actual data for this as a good starting point and work from there.  Thanks.

Eric Mumper

Re: M of W Crane 08...

Claus Schlund \(HGM\)
 

Hi Jack,
 
Looks real good so far.
 
And we all knew you did not mean to type 'gross varnish'.
 
:-)
 
Claus Schlund
 
 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2019 7:11 PM
Subject: [RealSTMFC] M of W Crane 08...

I’ve been working on a crane which was owned by the Yosemite Valley Railroad. For the past week or so I’ve been concentrating on the “flat car” frame for the crane. It was constructed from brass flat stock and brass channel. One of the jobs was adding Archer rivets to the sides. Getting the smallest rivets (in line with the bolsters) with only four rivets on a thin strip of carrier was frustrating…there just wasn’t enough carrier material to keep from breaking the strips apart. So I cut some more small strips and brushed on a coat of Vallejo acyclic gross varnish. Once dry, they went on without problems.

 

Just an idea to keep in mind…

 

Jack Burgess

Re: M of W Crane 08...

Jack Burgess
 

Claus…

 

You are a better proof reader that I am. It should be “Gloss Varnish”.

 

That is why I have my wife proof-read all of my articles before I send them out!

 

Jack

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Claus Schlund \(HGM\)
Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2019 5:13 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] M of W Crane 08...

 

Hi Jack,

 

Looks real good so far.

 

And we all knew you did not mean to type 'gross varnish'.

 

:-)

 

Claus Schlund

 

 

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2019 7:11 PM

Subject: [RealSTMFC] M of W Crane 08...

 

I’ve been working on a crane which was owned by the Yosemite Valley Railroad. For the past week or so I’ve been concentrating on the “flat car” frame for the crane. It was constructed from brass flat stock and brass channel. One of the jobs was adding Archer rivets to the sides. Getting the smallest rivets (in line with the bolsters) with only four rivets on a thin strip of carrier was frustrating…there just wasn’t enough carrier material to keep from breaking the strips apart. So I cut some more small strips and brushed on a coat of Vallejo acyclic gross varnish. Once dry, they went on without problems.

 

Just an idea to keep in mind…

 

Jack Burgess

Re: C&O Lake Michigan Ferries, was Crappy Job

Jack Mullen
 

On Thu, Sep 12, 2019 at 07:00 AM, Daniel A. Mitchell wrote:
Just a slight correction/addition to an earlier post … the SS Badger Skinner Uniflo engines ARE “reciprocating” compound steam engines. So, in-service coal-fired reciprocating steam-engine powered vessels are not yet “gone from the Great Lakes”. Seriously endangered though!
As a further addition / clarification, the Unaflow engines in Spartan and Badger had just two stages of expansion, so Dennis's statement that the Chief was the last boat  with triple-expansion engines isn't contradicted. The Skinner Compound Unaflows were steeple compounds, i.e. vertical tandem compounds, a very different engine design from the classic marine VTE.
And a spelling note... Skinner used "Unaflow" as a trade name for their engines; "uniflow" is the generic term. 
Jack Mullen

Ratios

Armand Premo
 

I would like to open the topic of ratios and how they might be used to develop a realistic roster for the specific era,road and locations Armand Premo

STMFC] Ratios

Andy Carlson
 

In California, we have the annual return of the Grey Whales to our coast, and the swallows to San Juan Capistrano. In the STMFC we have the recurring freight car ratio discussion: welcome back! It has been awhile.
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA

----- Forwarded Message -----

From: Armand Premo <arm.p.prem@...>
To: "main@RealSTMFC.groups.io" <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2019, 8:43:26 AM PDT
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Ratios

I would like to open the topic of ratios and how they might be used to develop a realistic roster for the specific era,road and locations Armand Premo

Re: Ratios

Bruce Smith
 

Armand,

Still don’t believe (or remember) what you have been repeatedly told here over the past, what 20 years or so?

It’s really simple… estimates are as follows (and these estimates are based on hard numbers):

Home Road house cars - 25%
Home Road gondolas - 50%
Home Road hoppers - 75%

Foreign road house cars - distributed essentially in the national fleet percentages
Foreign road flat cars - national fleet percentages
Reefers - if originating traffic, nearly (but not completely) 100% “home” road (ie, the associated company, SFRD for ATSF, PFE for SP and UP, etc)
if receiving traffic, closer to national fleet numbers
if modeling WWII, national fleet numbers for everything
Tank cars - very era dependent, but typically regional, unless modeling WWII tank car trains
Foreign road gondolas - regional railroads
Foreign road hoppers - nearest neighbors, but often very specific for location, connection, and cargo. e.g C&O and N&W cars interchanged onto the PRR on Lines West for delivery to the great lakes, but almost never seen on Lines East PRR (except during WWII).

Exceptions - lines with specific traffic (most often branch lines), where the cars needed might be in pool service such as automobile manufacturing.

Note bene: These are FLEET percentage, so before Mike Brock has to post yet another disclaimer about trains full of  SP cars on the UP, these numbers DO NOT apply to every train, but rather to the aggregate total of cars. So, for example, trains on my (proposed) layout on the PRR stopping to interchange cars in Columbia PA with the READING will have a higher than national average percentage of READING cars to reflect that local traffic, but the rest of the trains will have almost none, since READING traffic of that nature was unlikely to be seen going past an interchange and my overall READING percentage will be just about the national fleet number!

Regards

Bruce


Bruce F. Smith            

Auburn, AL

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."




On Sep 13, 2019, at 10:43 AM, Armand Premo <arm.p.prem@...> wrote:

I would like to open the topic of ratios and how they might be used to develop a realistic roster for the specific era,road and locations Armand Premo

Re: Ratios

anthony wagner
 

Armand, I'm with you but this is not for casual modelers since it requires a significant amount of research. I have developed a modeling roster for the PRR in the Williamsport PA area circa 1949 using my 1-1-50 ORER and other sources specific to the Pennsy. It is not set in stone since relevant info pops up now and then and requires adjustment to what had been previously thought. Invaluable for context is an article published in Mainline Modeler Jan 1995 by John Nehrich using stats from April 1950 as published in Railway Age entitled Freight Operating Statistics of Large Steam Railways compiled by the Bureau of Transport Economics & Statistics of the ICC. In January 1950 according to my ORER PRR had 208699 freight cars in revenue service and according to the ICC table of the 218699 freight cars on Pennsy in April 107924 were home road cars and 110775 were foreign or roughly 50% of the total. Also extremely valuable is a Sept 1948 copy of the Williamsport ETT (Employee, not public, Timetable) which has arranged freight train symbols and approximate times of arrival and departure for the Williamsport Division. Those symbol trains were run as extras, not as regularly scheduled trains. A further consideration is the proximity of direct connections with foreign roads and the amount of interchange as well as local industry. In Williamsport the Pennsy interchanged with the Reading, the New York Central, and with the Erie which had trackage rights on NYC and used that road's Newberry yard. There were 2 daily symbol trains , EC-1 and EC-3 that had NYC blocks out of Enola and cutoff times for interchange. Another daily symbol train EN-3 ran from Enola to Williamsport and terminated so it probably had cars for local industries. This is all by way of showing how something seemingly simple can quickly mushroom into an immensely complicated project. There is a ton of information out there but the trick is finding it and then putting it in a usable form. Tony Wagner

On Friday, September 13, 2019, 10:43:27 AM CDT, Armand Premo <arm.p.prem@...> wrote:


I would like to open the topic of ratios and how they might be used to develop a realistic roster for the specific era,road and locations Armand Premo

Re: STMFC] Ratios

Tony Thompson
 

Andy Carlson wrote:

In California, we have the annual return of the Grey Whales to our coast, and the swallows to San Juan Capistrano. In the STMFC we have the recurring freight car ratio discussion: welcome back! It has been awhile.

   Ah, yes, memories of my childhood, the swallows coming home to Capistrano . . . Oh, sorry, the RATIOS coming home. My mistake.

Tony Thompson



Re: Ratios

Armand Premo
 

Ratios varied from decade to decade, I have felt that the wood to steel ratio was important,at least to me.I had too many steel cars because that was all that was available.at that time.Armand Premo

Virus-free. www.avast.com

Re: Ratios

Dave Nelson
 

The work that I did with Tim Gilbert 20 odd years ago was very specific to WWII to around 1956, mainline trunk routes, initially for boxcars and then flatcars too.  We had far too little data for before WWII or after the mid 50’s to even murmur speculative numbers.

 

That said, it was always my working assumption that WWII really scattered the boxcar fleet. It seems reasonable that the economic collapse of the great depression may have had the opposite effect.  Before that… who knows? 

YMMV.

 

For your specific question I think the answer may be found in the ICC Blue books of whatever era you are interested in.  If Tim were still with us he’d know for sure… and probably provide you with the answer.

 

Dave Nelson

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Armand Premo
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2019 12:40 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Ratios

 

Ratios varied from decade to decade, I have felt that the wood to steel ratio was important,at least to me.I had too many steel cars because that was all that was available.at that time.Armand Premo

Re: covered hopper grays

Greg Martin
 

Eric,

You don't say what rra or what railroad,  it does make a difference. 



Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone

-------- Original message --------
From: Eric Mumper <eric.mumper@...>
Date: 9/12/19 4:13 PM (GMT-08:00)
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] covered hopper grays

Group,

Over the last few years there have been a lot of new model paints for regular old freight car color to cover all the variations.  Is there anything like that for covered hopper grays?  While going through RP Cyc 27 there are such color call-outs as Steel Gard Gray (medium gray shade) (the one I am looking for) and Pittsburgh Gray #44122 (medium gray shade).  Are there any known references for these?  Are there any valid model paint colors?  I do see Scalecoat has 2084 UP hopper car gray.  Matching by eye is out for all of these as the only photos are B&W.  Intermountain and any other company doing covered hoppers must have gotten info from somewhere (whether it is accurate or not is another matter.)  It would be nice to have actual data for this as a good starting point and work from there.  Thanks.

Eric Mumper
--
Hey Boss,


Somehow I got deleted from this group in late May. I guess someone didn't like me. Jail is a lonely place.

Greg Martin 

Re: covered hopper grays

Eric Mumper
 

Greg,

RP Cyc 27 focuses on the ACF 1958 cuft covered hoppers.  Being a Steam Era Freight Car List I am mostly interested in the late 1940s to early 1950s.  Railroad is not mentioned as the idea is to find a range of grays applicable to covered hoppers just like the range of FCC now being offered.  Also many of these covered hoppers would have been in SHPX lease service.  What does "medium gray shade" mean when converting to available paint colors?  Most available model grays are either RR locomotive specific or military FS type colors.

Eric Mumper

Re: Ratios

np328
 

I would and still take the word of anything Dave Nelson and Tim Gilbert did as gospel.  After that, I support Bruce Smith's reply to get further clarity.  
Seeing Tony Wagner's post, yes it may well  require a goodly amount of research on your part. How you look upon doing that will affect how deeply you want to dig. 

  
Set some significant time aside, grab your favorite beverage and search this list for Nelson-Gilbert or Gilbert-Nelson, and the same letters without the dash or hyphen "-".  Read all of those. They provide a good start without leaving your chair.   

Brian Carlson did an excellent presentation years (a decade or two ago by now) at CCB. It inspired me to follow his example and later do a presentation at Naperville Sunshine, and the following CCB titled Closer to the Rail Head. 

In a few words, taking the above research by Dave Nelson and Tim Gilbert, and using the reasoning Bruce put forth, that gets you a national balance. Then determine the geographic parameters, of the overall rail division you want to model. Search that area for major industries in that area or just beyond.  And interchanges. That will get regional flavor. 

And the time frame you model affects things.  As has been stated here repeatedly, the closer you can get a year, season, month, as a setpoint, the more valid your data search as applied will be.

    I model the Twin Cities - Twin Ports, late September of 1953 and what did I find?   At first I thought it would be heavy northbound grain trains of 40 foot boxcars to the ports, and in some manner - it was that. 
     However, and here is where the local major industries had effect, there was heavier coal traffic coming south for domestic and commercial heating than the grain going north. Something that would taper off by the late 50s as homes switched to natural gas. (Hence the importance of timeframe.)  Still that coal traffic south, via hopper, gon, and boxcars was the major tonnage in either direction and helped determine my car purchases. 
   
     A steel mill in the Duluth area that sent pig iron ingots south via gons, in addition to boxcar loads of wire and nails southbound in significant amounts entered in.

   
     There was a pipeline running east to west through both the Twin Cities and Twin Ports and they balanced transfers between the pipelines via rail in tank cars, in significant numbers. I need to clarify, both pipelines had transfer points directly on or adjacent to my railroad. Also as I have posted here prior, some tank cars loaded from Montana and Wyoming to Minnesota, enough that it enters in as a traffic factor to me.

    
     A surprise was meat, there were the St. Paul stockyards and several meat distribution offices in Duluth. Swift, Armour, and others. That in addition to a slaughter house in West Duluth which meant stock cars northbound. From the St. Paul stockyards went carloads of meat for export via ship. How or why did they do that? I don't need to know, all I needed was the carload numbers of meat reefers.  

    The connection from Canada via the DW&P into Duluth was significant, as I have posted to this list before, 44 cars per day on average on my railroad, CN cars, mostly of newsprint, going south loaded, and returning empty. I bought a whole bunch of CN TLT cars for representation there. 
   
    All of this affected my balance of the purchase of gons, hoppers, reefers, tank cars, in addition to boxcars. 

And all found through research.
         
        How deeply do you want to research, that depends and is up to you. I will add that there were several branch lines off the above Twin Ports -Twin Cities. The Grantsburg branch and the Stillwater branch were two of those. The Stillwater branch connected with the Omaha and Milwaukee at Stillwater, MN. There was pulpwood that came off the Grantsburg branch, then went south to the Stillwater branch, and was transported by prior named connections to papermills in central Wisconsin. Again, something that affects modeled traffic.     

Of steel vs wood sided, I cannot give you a clear answer. Other have posted on wood vs steel car by year. You'll just have to search this list for those posts and that data.
However Mike Brock himself posted this in the files https://realstmfc.groups.io/g/main/files/DS-SS-Steel%20Split%201938%20to%201950%20Summary.xls   

           Perhaps if you named your region and date frame modeled, others could help.                                     Jim Dick - Roseville, MN