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The steam era, 1960
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MDelvec952
Dave Nelson writes:is >generous.It is commonly regarded by the more formal historian and professional museum community that the end of the steam era was 1960. The late 1950s still saw some Class 1 steam, while the 1960s saw steam only on a few short lines and in Canada. Rolling stock, too, made a big leap in the 1960s, as Richard pointed out. ....Mike
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Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
Mike and all,
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Didn't UP run steam into 1960? I think 4-8-8-4's would have to qualify as legitimate steam... For myself, I prefer the cutoff date of December 1966, when the current appearance of house cars was ordained, i.e. running boards were no longer required on box cars and reefers. Also, by 1966, reefers in ice service had declined precipitously. Some Classic Trains was published in 1964, so that is another milestone date for me, very close to the end of genuine "classy varnish" on western railroads. (The Seattle World's Fair of 1964-1965 was the last high point for NP and GN before the rapid slide towards 1971.) So what say you, steam fans? Can I offer you research into Hydroframe 60 PS-1's, or 90 ton, 4000 cubic foot covered hoppers, or 86 foot box cars, as well as end-of-life dispositions of single sheathed cars and wood ice reefers? All these things happened in the tumultuous early 1960's. To say nothing of piggyback cars and trailers of the 1950's up to 1966!
----- Original Message -----
From: <MDelvec952@...> Subject: [STMFC] The steam era, 1960 It is commonly regarded by the more formal historian and professional museum
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Mike Brock <brockm@...>
Tim O'Connor...who will probably have to retake his class on steam
history... writes: Didn't UP run steam into 1960? I think 4-8-8-4's would have to qualify1960? UP STILL runs steam. 844...renumbered to 8444 for awhile....has never been removed from the roster. It and 3985 still provide SOME degree of class to today's RRs. OTOH, the last Big Boy ran in '59. Hard to imagine the age of steam to have run to '66 even with UP's single locomotive. The trouble with that date is it a bit arbitrary...with little supporting evidence. Add to that, both Supreme Courts will overrule it. Mike Brock
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Richard Hendrickson
Tim O'Connor wrote:
So what say you, steam fans? Can I offer you research into HydroframeBOOORING! Let's hear it for Andrews trucks, truss rod underframes, outside metal roofs, and Murphy corrugated ends. Richard H. Hendrickson Ashland, Oregon 97520
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Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
Richard, you're living in the past. ;o)
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Oh wait, so am I... but less past than you are. And Al Westerfield is even more past than either of us. Has anyone passed Al's past as yet? And is Dick Harley still with us?
----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@...> BOOORING! Let's hear it for Andrews trucks, truss rod underframes, outside
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John W Nehrich <nehrij@...>
I think that if Mike Brock does all the work of keeping the list going,
etc., he should be left alone to pick the cutoff date and to go beyond it at times if he thinks it relevant (sometimes a discussion of a new technology makes you understand more about the whys and wherefores of the older - at least that what's I've found). (Not to get off topic, but since I'm already sending this, and there is all this blank space below.) At the RPI club, we struggled for years over the definition of "steam-era". We had a working concept, but it was hard to explain to non-modelers what the significance was, and also why we weren't that concerned with the 1840's. It was a book by James Kunstler ("Geography Of Nowhere") which opened our eyes to the society-wide changes that were going on, that had impact on railroads. After all, what would the choice of the motive power at the front end have to do with the freight cars trailing along? We have started using the term "Downtown Century", to represent the 100 years or so from the Civil War to the early '60's when the downtown of a city or even just a village was the center of life. And the reason was that this was where the railroad interface took place (mainly the depot, but also the freight depot). It was the rise of mass transportation using rails (railroads AND street cars) that led to the modern idea of the classic idea of the city. And while it goes back to the 1860's, it took a few more decades for the institutions to catch up (office buildings, hotels, resturants, giant theaters, department stores). And the bottom dropped out with the shift to individual transportion - i.e., the auto, and the decline of the downtown to the abandoned "inner city". (We keep thinking of the 1960's pop song "Downtown" which extols the excitement of the area, a place to go just to be where the action is - today most people think of the excitement of being downtown would be not getting mugged.) It started with the demise of the trolley system (Kunstler points out this was a deliberate act by GM, one of the oil companies and a tire manufacturer, who actually were convicted of this, and given a slap on the wrist years after it was too late.) And the interstate highway system (and public support of highways in general before) and the government's support of suburban development that would eventually do in the railroads from their traditional role of carrying everything to one of just efficient movement of bulk items. And freight cars in turn shifted to reflect this specialized role. So we have the peak of railroading by various measurements at about WWI (and people who favor that era), and the "last hurrah" in the '50's of traditional railroading, whether you set the cut off date at 1960 or a few years later or earlier. At least that's my thoughts on the subject. - John Nehrich
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Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...>
John and friends,
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From posts in the old FCL, and magazine articles written by some members of this new group, I would guess that the most common era of interest is probably the immediate post-WWII years. There are probably many individual reasons for picking this era, but one certainly has to be the great variety of interesting equipment and the large number of railroad companies during those years. Perhaps the other factor is that most modelers focus on is the time when they first became interested in trains (sparked, no doubt, by pleasant memories and the thrill of discovery for the first time). My own era of modeling has been fixed at June 1957. This was chosen to fit available locomotive and caboose models for my favorite prototype, the Sacramento Northern (and their parent, the Western Pacific). This gives me a chance to mix some neat newer prototypes with older equipment that was purged shortly after that time. This does not mean I don't take a keen interest in older rolling stock from other lines (like wood-sheathed boxcars, for example), especially since much of it was still seen in interchange service up to about that date. Given my druthers, I would push the date back a few years, but that would be getting into the time of blurry, early-childhood memories that I have a harder time relating to. Besides, 1957 is one of the best times for good-quality vehicle models in HO right now, and automobiles are so important for setting a scene. If this group cuts off at 1960 or a bit earlier, it doesn't much matter to me. Kind regards, Garth G. Groff John W Nehrich wrote:
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Shawn Beckert
Guys,
Didn't Illinois Central run big steam, mikados or something, into 1961? I seem to recall seeing a photo of a very large IC engine in service, the caption stating it was early 1961. Shawn Beckert
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thompson@...
Tim O'C writes:
Some Classic Trains was published in 1964, so that is another milestoneTim, I think you'll find that Fair took place in 1962-63. And the BN merger took place in 1970...or were you thinking of Amtrak's advent? Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 http://www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@... Publishers of books on railroads and on Western history
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Dave & Libby Nelson <muskoka@...>
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-----Original Message----- And the bottom dropped out with the shift to individual And the Nice analysis John. Many years ago I researched the horse drawn street cars of Oakland and Alameda, CA. The major learning was such transportation companies were usually fronts for real estate developers -- buy distant land cheap, build transportation, sell accessible land high. IOW, land values are inversely correlated with transportation expenses, which explains alot about the impact on cities with the widespread introduction of public roads into the burbs. Build a better, cheaper mousetrap.... I had not previously considered how this effect played out on freight car design -- I like your thoughts on moving from the generic bulk carrier to the specialized, dedicated vehicle. On the other end of the timeline, from Whites _American Freight Car_, there is the effect on design present from 1) declining old growth hardwoods, 2) refining steam locomotive techology and 3) the availability of cheap steel. All of which then sets logical boundaries for the "generic, steam era, steel freight car". As for usage, industry practice was *very* different 50 years ago too: relatively very few national companies and those few were mostly oriented to vertical integration, which is to say that rather than buy locally, there was a lot of stuff shipped between the companies own plants. This of course led to rate issues for intermediate production (wheat to flour to breakfast cerials) and I suspect more closed routings than would otherwise have been the case. Dave Nelson
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Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
Tim, I think you'll find that Fair took place in 1962-63. And the BNYep, you're right. I was thinking of the New York World's Fair.. And yes Amtrak on May 1, 1971.
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sswain@...
FWIW, both the CPR and CNR's steam operations essentially ended after April
1960. Any steam use after that by the dominant two railways in this country could be described as being excursion related (there may have been a handful CPR trips in the summer of 1960). Stafford SwainDave Nelson writes:is 26 Kenneth Street Winnipeg, MB, Canada R3T 0K8 (204) 477-9246 sswain@...
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Keith Jordan <kjordan@...>
The talk about 1960 got me to thinking what had changed in the ten years
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from 1950 to 1960, so I looked up some statistics on one of my favorite subjects, SFRD reefers: In 1950, there were 2955 wood sheathed steel framed steel underframe cars 10607 all steel swing door cars 563 all steel sliding door cars 445 fifty foot ice bunker cars 1 mechanical car In 1960, there were 0 wood sheathed steel frame steel underframe cars 2101 all steel swing door cars 10172 all steel sliding door cars 390 fifty foot ice bunker cars 323 mechanical cars Look at 1970 before we go, however: 1365 all steel swing door cars 3718 all steel sliding door cars 40 fifty foot ice bunker cars 3614 mechanical cars You could argue there was little change in the 1950s with these cars, but a big change in the 1960s. At any rate, I found it interesting and it does tend to support 1960 as a watershed freight car decade. Keith Jordan
From: sswain@...
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Gail & Tom Madden <tgmadden@...>
Keith Jordan wrote (regarding SFRD reefers):
You could argue there was little change in the 1950s with these cars, but a Wouldn't the 40-year rule have had a lot to do with that? Many cars built throughout the '20s, damfew during the '30s. Replacing much of the remaining post-W.W.I, pre-W.W.II fleet beginning in 1960 would by itself have made the '60s a watershed decade. Factor in such things as higher horsepower motive power and more efficient ROW construction materials and techniques that made possible increased clearances (ergo larger cars), and you've really got a big change. Tom "or is my ignorance showing?" M.
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Max Robin
I'm afraid I side w/Richard on the date issue. By 1960, I was
looking for older freight cars still in photographable condition and had ZERO interest in the contemporary equipment except as it impacted my job in the NYC mechanical department. My model railroad has been designed and is operated as a dual era railroad: 1926 and Oct. 1948. The '48 date would be more like '44 except that I couldn't resist a certain group of west coast logging wengines which were sold off in 1948. As several of my close modeler friends are fond of saying, "a PS-1, what's that?" --------------------------------------------------------------------- email: m_robin@... alias kathe@... smail: Max S. Robin, P.E. voice: 973 - 627 - 5895 Cheat River Engineering Inc. or: 973 - 627 - 5460 23 Richwood Place / P. O. Box 289 Denville, NJ 07834-0289
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