Reefer Traffic on the Pennsy


Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. <smithbf@...>
 

Hi Folks,

I have been pondering a querstion about Reefer traffic on the PRR circa
1944 and the discussion here as well as the following comment that Gregg
Mahlkov wrote on PRR-talk (which he kindly permitted me to repost here),
got me to wondering about again:

PFE Reefers were received from SSW at E. St. Louis and CNW, MILW, etc. at
Chicago off UP, while ATSF perishable traffic was either received off ATSF
at Chicago or possibly off WAB at Logansport, IN. So, SFRD's and PFE's would
not have appeared in the same trains over the Middle Division as East Coast
perishables were blocked for Enola from the Western gateways.
I'm curious as to what types of reefers would have appeared on the A&S (the
Low Grade Line) between Enola and points East on the PRR? In the videos I
have, it can often be difficult to identify the reporting marks, and it
seems clear that both individual cars and large blocks of cars were
forwarded east over this line. I know that PRR had an "interest" in Fruit
Growers Express, and I see FGE cars appear in a number of New England area
videos. Any suggestions for building up an appropriate fleet of reefers in
HO for the area and era would be greatly appreciated... (ie, do I give a
rattus norwegicus' backside about the new IM premium reefer?)

Happy Rails
Bruce


Happy Rails
Bruce


Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.
Scott-Ritchey Research Center
334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin
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Richard Hendrickson
 

Bruce Smith wrote:

I have been pondering a querstion about Reefer traffic on the PRR circa
1944.... I'm curious as to what types of reefers would have appeared on
the A&S >(the Low Grade Line) between Enola and points East on the PRR?
In the videos I
have, it can often be difficult to identify the reporting marks, and it
seems clear that both individual cars and large blocks of cars were
forwarded east over this line. I know that PRR had an "interest" in Fruit
Growers Express, and I see FGE cars appear in a number of New England area
videos. Any suggestions for building up an appropriate fleet of reefers in
HO for the area and era would be greatly appreciated... (ie, do I give a
rattus norwegicus' backside about the new IM premium reefer?)
Bruce, PRR reefer traffic eastbound would certainly have consisted of both
PFE and SFRD cars in sizeable numbers (bearing in mind that the PFE fleet
was about twice the size of the SFRD fleet). ART, BREX, and WFEX cars
would also have been represented in much smaller numbers, along with
(occasionally) an NP, IC, NWX, or URTX (Milw) car. Both PFE and SFRD went
out of their way to avoid shipping perishables via the Pennsy, which had a
miserable record of on-time delivery (and a correspondingly high loss
rate), so through traffic to the NY metro area and New England was routed
on the Erie whenever possible. NYC was a distant second choice; though
they didn't handle off-line perishables nearly as well as the Erie (or the
GTW to Detroit and Canada, or the B&O to DC), they provided faster and
better service than the PRR, which tended to treat all freight traffic as
though it were coal. That said, the Pennsy was about the only game in town
for perishable shipments to Pittsburgh and Philadelphia.

Westbound traffic would have been carried predominantly in FGEX reefers.
However, remember that Fruit Growers operated the Western Fruit Express
(Great Northern) and Burlington reefer fleets, and during much of the year
those cars were as much in evidence in the eastern US as Fruit Growers' own
FGEX cars.

I have (courtesy of Tony Thompson) a couple of yard shots of the PRR yard
adjacent to the Pittsburgh produce terminal ca. 1947 showing a sea of
reefers, many of them easily identifiable, and I can send them to you as
JPEGs if you think they might be helpful.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Bruce,
What is your time period? If you're doing '44 you will need the R-40-14. If
you could move to '47 you get not only the post war 40' cars that Branchline
will have out again but you get the much cheaper PFE R-40-23 which came out
in '47.

Mike


Jeff Aley - GCD PE <jaley@...>
 

On Mar 19, 2:13pm, Richard Hendrickson wrote:
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Reefer Traffic on the Pennsy
I have (courtesy of Tony Thompson) a couple of yard shots of the PRR
yard
adjacent to the Pittsburgh produce terminal ca. 1947 showing a sea of
reefers, many of them easily identifiable, and I can send them to you as
JPEGs if you think they might be helpful.
Richard,

Wasn't this yard (or even this photo) the subject of a "Cars in
Context" article in RailModel Journal several years ago? I see from the
Index that RMJ has featured Pittsburgh a number of times, during various
eras, so I'm not sure which issue contains the article I remember.

Regards,

-Jeff

--
Jeff Aley, Development Engineer jaley@pcocd2.intel.com
Graphics Components Division
Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA
(916) 356-3533


Richard Hendrickson
 

Jeff aley wrote:

Wasn't this yard (or even this photo) the subject of a "Cars in
Context" article in RailModel Journal several years ago? I see from the
Index that RMJ has featured Pittsburgh a number of times, during various
eras, so I'm not sure which issue contains the article I remember.
I think you're right, Jeff, but I can't recall which issue. Anyway, JPEGs
would be somewhat clearer than the published half-tones.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


ibs4421@...
 

Richard observed:

Anyway, JPEGs
would be somewhat clearer than the published half-tones.

Richard H. Hendrickson


Richard,
Would it be possible to post the photo to the group's "files" section at the Yahoo!Groups site? That way many could look at it and glean the info they need from it. Just a thought.

Warren Dickinson

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Richard Hendrickson
 

Richard,
Would it be possible to post the photo to the group's
"files" section at the Yahoo!Groups site? That way many could look at it
and glean the info they need from it. Just a thought.

Warren Dickinson
A good thought, too, Warren, but I've resisted going through the rigmarole
that Yahoo requires to access the files. Tell you what. If anyone who's
already sold their soul to Yahoo will volunteer to post the photos, I'll
send THEM the JPEGs and they can put 'em in the files.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


John Nehrich <nehrij@...>
 

Richard - Always glad to post photos (http://www.union.rpi.edu/railroad),
although some time it takes me awhile to get around to it. - John

----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Hendrickson" <rhendrickson@opendoor.com>
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2001 12:33 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Reefer Traffic on the Pennsy


Richard,
Would it be possible to post the photo to the group's
"files" section at the Yahoo!Groups site? That way many could look at it
and glean the info they need from it. Just a thought.

Warren Dickinson
A good thought, too, Warren, but I've resisted going through the rigmarole
that Yahoo requires to access the files. Tell you what. If anyone who's
already sold their soul to Yahoo will volunteer to post the photos, I'll
send THEM the JPEGs and they can put 'em in the files.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520




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Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
 

A good thought, too, Warren, but I've resisted going through the rigmarole
that Yahoo requires to access the files. Tell you what. If anyone who's
already sold their soul to Yahoo will volunteer to post the photos, I'll
send THEM the JPEGs and they can put 'em in the files.
Richard, anything you want posted, I'd be happy to put on Yahoo for you.


Timothy O'Connor <timoconnor@mediaone.net>
Marlborough, Massachusetts


Richard Hendrickson
 

Richard, anything you want posted, I'd be happy to put on Yahoo for you.
Thanks, Tim, I'll bear it in mind. But in this case, Bruce Smith has
already volunteered to do so, and as he started this thread in the first
place I've already posted the JPEGs to him.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


Richard Hendrickson
 

Richard - Always glad to post photos (http://www.union.rpi.edu/railroad),
although some time it takes me awhile to get around to it. - John
Thanks, John. But in this case, I sent 'em to Bruce Smith, who
volunteered to post them in the STMFC archives, since he started the thread
in the first place.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. <smithbf@...>
 

Howdy y'all,

Richard was kind enough to send me two JPEGS, and these are now posted to
the FILES area in a folder called "Pittsburgh Reefers". The first of these
scans seemed to develope some funny lines across it when I rotated it 90
degrees and saved it (over the old file, of course) - Richard, could you
resend me Pgh_Yard_1.jpg and I'll try to get a cleaner copy posted.

Great info in these two scans - you might even pull off some car #s!
Combine that with a look through Sunshine's all time list of cars from the
files area, plus a look through Westerfield, IM, and others and I might
just have the makings of a fleet.

BTW, Greg Martin made the point in answering this question over on the PRR
list that reefer traffic would vary with the season...for example, the
Northeast would not get too many Norhtwest apples, due to production in
N.Y. and that navel oranges were a fall harvest while valencias were a
spring harvest, and most Northeast citrus probably came from Florida.

Happy Rails
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.
Scott-Ritchey Research Center
334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin
__
/ &#92;
__<+--+>________________&#92;__/___ ____________________________________
|- ______/ O O &#92;_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ |
| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 &#92; | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
|/_____________________________&#92;|_|____________________________________|
| O--O &#92;0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0


Dave & Libby Nelson <muskoka@...>
 

BTW, Greg Martin made the point in answering this question over on the PRR
list that reefer traffic would vary with the season...for example, the
Northeast would not get too many Norhtwest apples, due to production in
N.Y. and that navel oranges were a fall harvest while valencias were a
spring harvest, and most Northeast citrus probably came from Florida.
I can't speak to what travelled over the PRR, but I can address some of the
above erroneous assumptions attributed to Greg Martin--

Using the ICC's state to state waybill analysis from 1950:

APPLES: 16.67% of all of Washington state apples moved by rail were
delivered to the states of PA, NJ, NY, and MA. -- a percentage that works
out to an estimated 4800 reefers -- a not-so-insignificant number when
compared to rail shipments of apples from non-Washington sources to these
same states, an estimated 530 reefers, almost all of which were movements
between MA, NJ, NY, and PA and may well have included reshipments of
Washington apples. Shipments of New York apples to any location was less
than 1% of Washington state shipments.

ORANGES: California and Florida shipped an almost identical amount of
Oranges by rail, with 57% of the Florida tonnage ending it's rail journey in
PA, NJ, NY, and MA, which I estimate at 17800 reefers; But those 4 states
received 37% of California shipments -- 12700 reefers.

Virtually 100% of all grapes and lemons came from California, as well as
most Cantalopes, with total tonnage slightly in excess of Oranges --
adjusting for tonange/car differences, another 17000 reefers from the west
coast.

So the facts argue a) NY apples did not mean much rail tonnage. b) large
quantities of Washington state apples did ship to the Northeast. c) Florida
Oranges enjoyed a 1.4:1 shipment ratio advantage over California Oranges,
which hardly counts as "most". d) California produce dominated other states
produce shipments to New England.

I am reminded of a criticism I once heard applied to Coloradans, which went
kinda like this: "If it didn't happen in Colorado, it didn't happen". It
appears something similar might be said about the Pennsy.

Dave Nelson


Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
 

I have (courtesy of Tony Thompson) a couple of yard shots of the PRR yard
adjacent to the Pittsburgh produce terminal ca. 1947 showing a sea of
reefers, many of them easily identifiable, and I can send them to you as
JPEGs if you think they might be helpful.
Two great photos published in Railmodel Journal, Aug 1990. Mr. Hendrickson
identifies 45 of the cars in the 1941 photo. Same shot also in Great Yellow
Fleet. Other photo is from 1951, and my notes say 22 cars are identifiable.

I miss those "cars in the yard (or consist)" photo articles. Great stuff!

Timothy O'Connor <timoconnor@mediaone.net>
Marlborough, Massachusetts


Richard Hendrickson
 

Tim O'Connor wrote:

I miss those "cars in the yard (or consist)" photo articles. Great stuff!
Bob S. keeps leaning on me to do more, and I have several primo yard shots
I could work with, but those articles take a hellacious amount of time.
I've got another one on my agenda, but it won't happen until later this
year.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


byronrose@...
 

Richard,

Why not post the photo(s) here and let all of us take a crack at
identification? After all, where is it written that you have to do it
all? Besides, I'm sure there are some here who would love to embarrass
themselves. I know I would.

BSR

On Wed, 21 Mar 2001 08:58:58 -0800 Richard Hendrickson
<rhendrickson@opendoor.com> writes:
Tim O'Connor wrote:

I miss those "cars in the yard (or consist)" photo articles. Great
stuff!

Bob S. keeps leaning on me to do more, and I have several primo yard
shots
I could work with, but those articles take a hellacious amount of
time.
I've got another one on my agenda, but it won't happen until later
this
year.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520



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Richard Hendrickson
 

Richard,

Why not post the photo(s) here and let all of us take a crack at
identification? After all, where is it written that you have to do it
all? Besides, I'm sure there are some here who would love to embarrass
themselves. I know I would.
An interesting idea, Byron. I think you overestimate how many people out
there would spend the time and effort to participate in such a project - I
notice that nobody else has seconded your motion! However, on the
principle that two heads are often better than one (depending, of course,
on whose heads they are), I'll be happy to send the JPEGs to you directly,
once I've made up my mind which yard shots I'm going to work on next.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
 

Besides, I'm sure there are some here who would love to embarrass
themselves. I know I would.
An interesting idea, Byron. I think you overestimate how many people out
there would spend the time and effort to participate in such a project - I
notice that nobody else has seconded your motion!
Embarrassing myself happens to be my speciality! I'm an expert at making
incorrect or even outrageous misidentifications of freight cars, as R.H.
knows only too well... So go ahead, make my day! ;o)

Timothy O'Connor <timoconnor@mediaone.net>
Marlborough, Massachusetts


Dave & Libby Nelson <muskoka@...>
 

Count me in. I'm used to being wrong on all sorts of other things, one more
category won't hurt.

Dave Nelson


Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. <smithbf@...>
 

Howdy y'all,

Thank you for all the wonderful help with suggestions regarding reefer
traffic on the PRR. Now I have another question...does anyone make a model
of an FGEX reefer appropriate for 1944? I see that Red Caboose is listing
cat #RC4437, and R-30-12-9 Wood Reefer in FGEX with a reweigh stencil of
8.47
(http://www.red-caboose.com/cgi-bin/e_catalog/catalog.cgi?product_display=RC-443
7&shop=redcaboose&language=eng&curr=0&session=3abfba8f789becec&cart_id=55569644x
30875)

Given Red Caboose's penchant for imaginary paint schemes...is this car
correct for FGEX? Can it be backdated to 1944 by simply changing the
reweigh stencil? If that's the case, I'd probably better get that 12 pack
for those westbounds!

Happy Rails
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.
Scott-Ritchey Research Center
334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin
__
/ &#92;
__<+--+>________________&#92;__/___ ____________________________________
|- ______/ O O &#92;_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ |
| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 &#92; | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
|/_____________________________&#92;|_|____________________________________|
| O--O &#92;0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0