AC&F covered hoppers


Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. <smithbf@...>
 

Hi all,

Did you ever fail to see something that was right in front of you? Well, I
had one of those "E coli occurs" moments Saturday night while test driving
a couple of brand new (mumble mumble P2K PRR GP30s mumble mumble) around my
loop of track. I realized that the Kato AC&F covered hoppers on the test
train might be OK for the new diesels but were waaaaay wrong for my 1944
era layout. Why? Well, the Erie Lackawanna paint job for one!!
Fortunately, I had Richard's article on these cars and I realized that I
can paint them black and decal them for Erie. Those cars have been on my
test track for about 2 years now...when I bought those cars, I paid very
close attention to the blt date to make SURE that they were OK...and I
NEVER twigged to the wrong roadname...I'll go sit in the corner with my
prototype dunce cap on now...

BTW, if I hadn't noticed...who among you would have pointed it out <G>? I
can see it now...the gorgeous MR spread (hey, a guy can dream!)...the
caption reads "A train of covered hoppers full of cement heads east to help
build artificial harbors for the allied invasion of Normandy"...ooooooh I
can feel the heat!

Also:
Do y'all think I need to strip the cars first or can I just paint over the
Kato paint job? (I most concerned about a show EL showing through due to
different paint thicknesses between the body and the roadname)

What would these cars (Erie) most likely have hauled circa 1944? I'm
guessing cement...but I wonder

Happy Rails
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.
Scott-Ritchey Research Center
334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin
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Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Bruce, you write about Kato LOs:

Fortunately, I had Richard's article on these cars and I realized that I
can paint them black and decal them for Erie. Those cars have been on my
test track for about 2 years now...when I bought those cars, I paid very
close attention to the blt date to make SURE that they were OK...and I
NEVER twigged to the wrong roadname...I'll go sit in the corner with my
prototype dunce cap on now...
Bruce, I'm not of the opinion that the Kato cars are aqctually models of
AC&F cars. I agree, of course, that they are of AC&F design...as Richard
notes. However, the hatch latching mech seems to be one used more by General
American. Certainly the UP Ch-70-2, for which Kato provides a model, were
built by Gen. American. The only reason I mention this is to suggest that
you check out the hatch latching...and perhaps the hatches as well...on the
Erie cars. For instance, the one in the photo on pg 28 in Richard's article
has single tines instead of the 2 as provided by Kato...and which is correct
for Gen. American built cars...sometimes [ note my usual hedge ]. Why is
this important? Who knows...maybe a tine counter will show up someday.

Mike Brock


billd@...
 

Well, well, well...

I am glad to see it isn't only documentary producers who
make mistakes :-)

These most likely hauled cement, however sometimes covered
hoppers in this era also hauled carbon black.

Bill Daniels


billd@...
 

Oh, one more item, Dr Bruce...

If I recall correctly aren't GP-30's a wee bit new for 1944?

Thought so...

You really should try some of those Athearn Genesis
F-7's...they make the GP-30's look shabby (and they were
built in the {late}1940's...)

Bill Daniels


Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. <smithbf@...>
 

Mike wrote:

Bruce, I'm not of the opinion that the Kato cars are aqctually models of
AC&F cars. I agree, of course, that they are of AC&F design...as Richard
notes. However, the hatch latching mech seems to be one used more by General
American. Certainly the UP Ch-70-2, for which Kato provides a model, were
built by Gen. American. The only reason I mention this is to suggest that
you check out the hatch latching...and perhaps the hatches as well...on the
Erie cars. For instance, the one in the photo on pg 28 in Richard's article
has single tines instead of the 2 as provided by Kato...and which is correct
for Gen. American built cars...sometimes [ note my usual hedge ]. Why is
this important? Who knows...maybe a tine counter will show up someday.
Yeah, I had noticed the difference in the latch...I hadn't decided if I was
going to do anything about it, since the latch mechanism provided by Kato
is both nice and fragile...but NOW THAT YOU'VE TOLD THE WHOLE WORLD...guess
I'll have to fix it <G>. Since I recently got a grit blaster, I'll
probably strip the sides with that to remove any chance of the lettering
showing through, and since I'm going that far, the molded grabs will be
replaced as well (Geez, this just went from a simple repaint to another
rebuild job!). Any other details I need to change to make them AC&F Erie
LOs?

Happy Rails
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.
Scott-Ritchey Research Center
334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin
__
/ &#92;
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Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Bruce Smith writes:

Any other details I need to change to make them AC&F Erie
LOs?
Bruce, not being Erie literate, I'm not sure. You might want to be sure you
put 70 ton trucks under it just in case a "truck checker" comes by. If you
want the car to be a big hit, you could make the latching mech actually
operate...like I did on my UP CH-70-1 E&B Valley rebuild. It actually is
kind of neat...I may have showed it to you during Prototype Rails last Jan.
I also made the hatches so they could be opened. You can use it on a train
and also position it with some hatches open.

Good luck. Oh. Be sure and bring it down to Prototype Rails next yr.

Mike Brock


billd@...
 

Hey Bruce...

Wouldn't it be easier to start with the Bowser covered
hopper? I believe they are of the same prototype that the
Kato car is and the Bowser is available in both open and
closed versions and is better detailed, regularly
available...and cheaper to boot!

Bill Daniels
Tucson, AZ

On Thu, 3 May 2001 08:18:57 -0500
"Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." <smithbf@...>
wrote:

Mike wrote:

Bruce, I'm not of the opinion that the Kato cars are
aqctually models of
AC&F cars. I agree, of course, that they are of AC&F
design...as Richard
notes. However, the hatch latching mech seems to be one
used more by General
American. Certainly the UP Ch-70-2, for which Kato
provides a model, were
built by Gen. American. The only reason I mention this
is to suggest that
you check out the hatch latching...and perhaps the
hatches as well...on the
Erie cars. For instance, the one in the photo on pg 28
in Richard's article
has single tines instead of the 2 as provided by
Kato...and which is correct
for Gen. American built cars...sometimes [ note my usual
hedge ]. Why is
this important? Who knows...maybe a tine counter will
show up someday.

Yeah, I had noticed the difference in the latch...I
hadn't decided if I was
going to do anything about it, since the latch mechanism
provided by Kato
is both nice and fragile...but NOW THAT YOU'VE TOLD THE
WHOLE WORLD...guess
I'll have to fix it <G>. Since I recently got a grit
blaster, I'll
probably strip the sides with that to remove any chance
of the lettering
showing through, and since I'm going that far, the molded
grabs will be
replaced as well (Geez, this just went from a simple
repaint to another
rebuild job!). Any other details I need to change to
make them AC&F Erie
LOs?

Happy Rails
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.
Scott-Ritchey Research Center
334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be
happy" - Benjamin Franklin
__
/ &#92;
__<+--+>________________&#92;__/___
____________________________________
|- ______/ O O &#92;_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __
__ __ __ __ |
| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 &#92; |
||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
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Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. <smithbf@...>
 

Oh, one more item, Dr Bruce...

If I recall correctly aren't GP-30's a wee bit new for 1944?
Yeah, a bit, but ever since I was a wee lad the GP-30 has fascinated
me...Its really one of very few diesels I find interesting...Of course, I
would never have paid the list price ($95) for them, but my hobby shop had
'em at 60% off on Saturday for his annual "sidewalk sale", so I picked up a
couple...I figure that I'll add trainphones, weather them, and use them on
somebody elses layout <G>.

As an aside to Mr. Brock, I tried not to let Brianna see these locomotives,
as they might be an "innappropriate influence", but much to my chagrin she
found them in the bag, and made me take them out and run them. Happily,
she immediately decided that she preferred to run the N&W Y-3 on the next
track (that's my girl!). BTW, she and I started work on detailing a
Walthers Russel plow to PRR specs this weekend...hopefully it will be ready
for Prototype Rails-Cocoa 2002...only one problem...she wants it to be
yellow, and I want grey/black (pre 1953 PRR MOW).

For those of you not "in the know", my daughter Brianna will turn 3 in
June, is an avid railfan, and has earned a lifetime pass to Mike's layout
room by requesting "more steam engines!" (and hosing a bunch of diesel
heads (aka Jim Six and Mike Rose) in the process <G>)

You really should try some of those Athearn Genesis
F-7's...they make the GP-30's look shabby (and they were
built in the {late}1940's...)
They are SPECTACULAR, but alas, they were not on sale...

I did also pick up some Stewart 55 ton Hoppers (LV and WM), LL P2K Type 21,
8,000 gallon tanks,(required STMFC content <G>) and a Walthers Double Track
Swing Bridge (YUCK - ask me more on that in some other post if you care,
and I'll go into my plans for it) for 30% off.

Happy Rails
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.
Scott-Ritchey Research Center
334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin
__
/ &#92;
__<+--+>________________&#92;__/___ ____________________________________
|- ______/ O O &#92;_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ |
| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 &#92; | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
|/_____________________________&#92;|_|____________________________________|
| O--O &#92;0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0


byronrose@...
 

On Wed, 02 May 2001 17:56:00 -0700 <billd@...> writes:
Well, well, well...

I am glad to see it isn't only documentary producers who
make mistakes :-)

These most likely hauled cement, however sometimes covered
hoppers in this era also hauled carbon black.

Bill Daniels

Unlikely Bill, that a cement car would carry carbon black unless they
wanted to pour a very dark grey (or gray) concrete. Carbon black was
shipped in covered hoppers, but they were dedicated cars, larger than the
1790 and 1958 cu ft cars used for cement, etc, and used for no other
purpose.

BSR

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byronrose@...
 

On Wed, 02 May 2001 17:59:02 -0700 <billd@...> writes:
Oh, one more item, Dr Bruce...

If I recall correctly aren't GP-30's a wee bit new for 1944?

Thought so...

You really should try some of those Athearn Genesis
F-7's...they make the GP-30's look shabby (and they were
built in the {late}1940's...)

Bill Daniels

Whoa Bill, now you're violating rule number one: "It's my layout and if
you don't like what I'm running, you're excused." I just love pulling
Heinz "reefers" with the new Atlas Dash 8s I just bought. I bet they'll
pull a 200 car train without breaking a sweat.

BS

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byronrose@...
 

On Thu, 3 May 2001 08:18:57 -0500 "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D."
<smithbf@...> writes:

Yeah, I had noticed the difference in the latch...I hadn't decided
if I was
going to do anything about it, since the latch mechanism provided by
Kato
is both nice and fragile...but NOW THAT YOU'VE TOLD THE WHOLE
WORLD...guess
I'll have to fix it <G>. Since I recently got a grit blaster, I'll
probably strip the sides with that to remove any chance of the
lettering
showing through, and since I'm going that far, the molded grabs will
be
replaced as well (Geez, this just went from a simple repaint to
another
rebuild job!). Any other details I need to change to make them AC&F
Erie
LOs?

Happy Rails
Bruce
Actually, this could be a can of worms. There were about 7 latch/hatch
variations, 3-4 roof variations, and at least 5 running board variations
on ACF covered hopper built in the late 30s-early 40s. Also rivet
pattern and brake equipment and brake step variants. Plus there's that
idiotic joint to hide where the step is attached on the OUTSIDE of the
Kato body.

Happy bashing,

BSR

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Jeff Aley - GCD PE <jaley@...>
 

On May 3, 5:23pm, byronrose@... wrote:
Subject: Re: [STMFC] AC&F covered hoppers

Whoa Bill, now you're violating rule number one: "It's my layout and if
you don't like what I'm running, you're excused." I just love pulling
Heinz "reefers" with the new Atlas Dash 8s I just bought. I bet they'll
pull a 200 car train without breaking a sweat.

BS
Byron,

Per your reputation, I expected better from you. At least have
the guts to pull a unit train of Heinz pickle cars, instead of mere
reefers!

Perhaps if Richard Hendrickson ever comes to visit, you'll let him
run his unit train of helium cars on your layout.

Regards,

-Jeff




--
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Graphics Components Division
Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA
(916) 356-3533


Guy Wilber
 


billd@...
 

True, true. Can't argue with you there.

Too bad the real PRR couldn't be running Dash-8's MUed with
a Q-2!

Bill Daniels

On Thu, 3 May 2001 17:23:48 -0400
byronrose@... wrote:


On Wed, 02 May 2001 17:59:02 -0700 <billd@...>
writes:
Oh, one more item, Dr Bruce...

If I recall correctly aren't GP-30's a wee bit new for
1944?

Thought so...

You really should try some of those Athearn Genesis
F-7's...they make the GP-30's look shabby (and they
were
built in the {late}1940's...)

Bill Daniels

Whoa Bill, now you're violating rule number one: "It's
my layout and if
you don't like what I'm running, you're excused." I just
love pulling
Heinz "reefers" with the new Atlas Dash 8s I just bought.
I bet they'll
pull a 200 car train without breaking a sweat.

BS

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billd@...
 

Speaking of helium cars, somewhere or other around the house
I've got several shots of the real helium cars on SP's
EPTUD/TUEPD. They always ran in pairs, had clasp brakes on
their heavy-duty trucks (for something as light as helium,
those cars were rather heavy) and went back and forth
between the coast and (I guess) New Mexico where I am told
there are helium mines...just don't ask me how you mine
helium. Outcropping as Helium PentaFlouride?

Bill Daniels

On Thu, 3 May 2001 14:48:29 -0700 (PDT)
Jeff Aley - GCD PE <jaley@...> wrote:
On May 3, 5:23pm, byronrose@... wrote:
Subject: Re: [STMFC] AC&F covered hoppers

Whoa Bill, now you're violating rule number one: "It's
my layout and if
you don't like what I'm running, you're excused." I
just love pulling
Heinz "reefers" with the new Atlas Dash 8s I just
bought. I bet they'll
pull a 200 car train without breaking a sweat.

BS
Byron,

Per your reputation, I expected better from you. At
least have
the guts to pull a unit train of Heinz pickle cars,
instead of mere
reefers!

Perhaps if Richard Hendrickson ever comes to visit,
you'll let him
run his unit train of helium cars on your layout.

Regards,

-Jeff




--
Jeff Aley, Development Engineer
jaley@...
Graphics Components Division
Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA
(916) 356-3533

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Tom Gloger
 

--- billd@... wrote:
Speaking of helium cars, somewhere or other around the house
I've got several shots of the real helium cars on SP's
EPTUD/TUEPD. They always ran in pairs, had clasp brakes on
their heavy-duty trucks (for something as light as helium,
those cars were rather heavy) and went back and forth
between the coast and (I guess) New Mexico where I am told
there are helium mines...just don't ask me how you mine
helium. Outcropping as Helium PentaFlouride?

Bill Daniels
It comes from gas wells. One town thought they had hit an "unlimited"
source of natural gas, but during the ceremony to light the "eternal
flame" the rushing gas kept blowing out the torch they were trying to
light it with. Too much helium.

The wells in 1938 were mostly in Kansas and Texas.

OK, I'm getting entirely too serious here... DID THESE CARS WEIGH
MORE EMPTY OR LOADED?

=====
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billd@...
 


It comes from gas wells.
Of course, I know this (can't a guy have ANY fun around
here???)

One town thought they had hit
an "unlimited"
source of natural gas, but during the ceremony to light
the "eternal
flame" the rushing gas kept blowing out the torch they
were trying to
light it with. Too much helium.
Oops...

The wells in 1938 were mostly in Kansas and Texas.

OK, I'm getting entirely too serious here... DID THESE
CARS WEIGH
MORE EMPTY OR LOADED?
Yes.

In all seriousness (see comment about fun above) the cars
actually weighted more full. Helium, although less dense
than the mix of gasses we call air (79.9% N2, 20.0% O2, 0.2%
CO2, everything else, trace) it does have mass. When
compressed and loaded into those tanks on the cars, it
weighs quite a bit. Although I never was able to read the
load limit and lt. wt of the cars. Maybe somebody out there
with better eyes than I have (actually having one of the
cars would help :-) or lacking that a good magnifying
glass, can read the data off one of the cars and report
same.


Bill Daniels

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Richard Hendrickson
 

Bill Daniels wrote:

Helium...does have mass. When
compressed and loaded into those tanks on the cars, it
weighs quite a bit. Although I never was able to read the
load limit and lt. wt of the cars. Maybe somebody out there
with better eyes than I have...can read the data off one of the cars and
report
same.
In the late 1960s I photographed MHAX 1154, a helium car built by AC&F in
December of 1960, including a number of close-up views. Nominal capacity
was 100 tons and light weight was 240400. The weight was mostly in the
very heavy steel tanks which were designed to hold helium at very high
pressures - and, yes, helium under pressure is NOT lighter than air. This
car had roller bearing trucks and, like all the helium cars I've ever seen,
it was equipped with clasp brakes.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


billd@...
 

With a light weight of 240400 lbs (120.2 tons) and a nominal
capacity of 100 tons, it would need those clasp brakes! All
the ones I ever saw had the clasp brakes. And they always
ran in pairs...I understand that they were set up that way
and the couplers between the cars were locked.

Bill Daniels
Tucson, AZ


byronrose@...
 

On Thu, 03 May 2001 18:41:58 -0700 <billd@...> writes:
Speaking of helium cars, somewhere or other around the house
I've got several shots of the real helium cars on SP's
EPTUD/TUEPD. They always ran in pairs, had clasp brakes on
their heavy-duty trucks (for something as light as helium,
those cars were rather heavy) and went back and forth
between the coast and (I guess) New Mexico where I am told
there are helium mines...just don't ask me how you mine
helium. Outcropping as Helium PentaFlouride?

Bill Daniels
Bill,

I'm surprised to hear that because I ran across just one without its mate
back in the 60s, on a siding in the middle of Florida, with a camera full
of slide film. Unfortunately, I didn't appreciate the value of climbing
or kneeling in those days. Now that it's a physical pain to do it,
that's what I do all the time. Climb, when I can find a car with
ladders, or kneel to look under. Although it usually turns out to be
flat on my back looking up.

BSR
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