Date
1 - 20 of 27
Quesions about a depressed center flat car
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Norm Dresner <ndrez@...>
As an excuse for trying out my new bandsaw, I started scratchbuilding
the depressed center flat car which is described in an ancient Kalmbach book entitled "Easy-to-Build Model Railroad Freight Cars" and sub-titled "24 Dollar Car Projects from the pages of Model Railroader". (This book is (C) 1971, a mere 30 years old as I'm sure I bought it soon after it hit the market). Anyway, there's what purports to be a prototype "sketch" (I'd hate to call it a drawing) with the markings "TPRX" giving it's capacities as CAPY 190000 LdLmt. 195800 Lt. Wt 55200 new 12-47 and showing a car with two two-axle trucks. I have two questions: 1. What might have been the prototype for this model, if any? 2. Where on a depressed-center flat car is the brake gear located? I'd appreciate any information on this car -- or anything like it. |
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Norm Dresner <ndrez@...>
Thanks for the info. I'm still waiting for my MM issue.
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Now if the original article was in fact based on a prototype that had brake wheels at both ends, how would the motion from the one at the end away from the valve/reservoir have been communicated to the brake gear? Norm ----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Carson <mbcarson@...> To: <STMFC@...> Sent: Monday, January 21, 2002 4:24 PM Subject: Re: [STMFC] Quesions about a depressed center flat car FWIW, the MR article on the depressed center flatcarhttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ |
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mbcarson2002
Norm,
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Yup, the standards for freight car drawings have come a long way since 1971 (especially since the depressed center flat article was probably originally published in MR earlier). By coincidence, there are plans for a Conrail 43 foot four axle depressed center flat car in the February 2002 issue of Mainline Modeler. The load limit for the Conrail flat is 198300 lbs. with a light weight of 64700 lbs. I presume the data shown on the car drawing in Kalmbach book are notational (to be kind). Regards, Mike Carson ----- Original Message -----
From: "Norm Dresner" <ndrez@...> To: "steamfreight" <STMFC@...> Sent: Monday, 21 January, 2002 15:07 Subject: [STMFC] Quesions about a depressed center flat car : As an excuse for trying out my new bandsaw, I started scratchbuilding : the depressed center flat car which is described in an ancient : Kalmbach book entitled "Easy-to-Build Model Railroad Freight Cars" and : sub-titled "24 Dollar Car Projects from the pages of Model : Railroader". (This book is (C) 1971, a mere 30 years old as I'm sure : I bought it soon after it hit the market). : : Anyway, there's what purports to be a prototype "sketch" (I'd hate to : call it a drawing) with the markings "TPRX" giving it's capacities as : CAPY 190000 : LdLmt. 195800 : Lt. Wt 55200 : new 12-47 : : and showing a car with two two-axle trucks. : : I have two questions: : 1. What might have been the prototype for this model, if any? : 2. Where on a depressed-center flat car is the brake gear located? : : I'd appreciate any information on this car -- or anything like it. : : : ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> : Tiny Wireless Camera under $80! : Order Now! FREE VCR Commander! : Click Here - Only 1 Day Left! : http://us.click.yahoo.com/WoOlbB/7.PDAA/ySSFAA/9MtolB/TM : ---------------------------------------------------------- -----------~-> : : To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: : STMFC-unsubscribe@... : : : : Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ : : |
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Norm Dresner <ndrez@...>
I haven't seen the Feb issue yet. Martin Luther King, Jr's Monday is
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probably getting in the way. And I agree about the dimensional data -- I had assumed it was put there to show where real data might have gone. Thanks for the pointer Norm ----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Carson <mbcarson@...> To: <STMFC@...> Sent: Monday, January 21, 2002 3:34 PM Subject: Re: [STMFC] Quesions about a depressed center flat car Norm,Sponsor ---------------------~--> Tiny Wireless Camera under $80!-~-> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ |
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Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...>
Norm,
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There should be two sets of AB brakes on this car, one on each end. The rodding couldn't be bent around the depressed part of the frame. This means there should also be two brake stands. It is possible that some cars of this type had truck-mounted brake cylinders due to the tight space around the bolsters, but I can't swear to that. At least Athearn got this part right on their 4-truck flat car. It has brake wheels at each end. I don't know about TPRX, but if this is a real reporting mark, it will be in the ORER. The articles in the Kalmbach book largely date from the early 1950s, so that is the approximate era to check. Kind regards, Garth G. Groff Norm Dresner wrote:
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Norm Dresner <ndrez@...>
Garth.
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The model definitely had brake wheels at either end and even though I've been staring at this article for decades I never noticed it until you just pointed it out. But DOH, of course if it had brake wheels at either end it would stand to reason that it had dual brake gear as well. I suppose the various components of the brake set would be nestled between the "center sill" and the side frames as best as they could. Would there have been any sort of "standard" for this placement. And, yes, since the "markings" on the drawing indicate "new 12-47" I'd guess that we're looking at a post-war prototype. Thanks for the information. Norm ----- Original Message -----
From: Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...> To: <STMFC@...> Sent: Monday, January 21, 2002 3:47 PM Subject: Re: [STMFC] Quesions about a depressed center flat car Norm,The rodding couldn't be bent around the depressed part of the frame. This means there should also be twobrake stands. It is possible that some cars of this type had truck-mounted brake cylinders due to thetight space around the bolsters, but I can't swear to that.has brake wheels at each end. will be in the ORER. The articles in the Kalmbach book largely date from the early 1950s, so that is theapproximate era to check. scratchbuilding andthe depressed center flat car which is described in an ancient suresub-titled "24 Dollar Car Projects from the pages of Model toI bought it soon after it hit the market). ascall it a drawing) with the markings "TPRX" giving it's capacities located?CAPY 190000 http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Sponsor ---------------------~--> Access Your PC from Anywhere-~-> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ |
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thompson@...
Garth Groff said:
There should be two sets of AB brakes on this car, one on each end. TheThe main reason for the two brake systems is the large car capacity. Rodding could indeed be run under the depressed deck if need be. Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 http://www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@... Publishers of books on railroads and on Western history |
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mbcarson2002
FWIW, the MR article on the depressed center flatcar
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was published in February 1955. The MM plans and accompanying photos show the single reservoir & triple valve mounted on top of one of elevated portions of the flat car near the brake wheel (the B end, naturally). Regards, Mike Carson ----- Original Message -----
From: "Garth G. Groff" <ggg9y@...> To: <STMFC@...> Sent: Monday, 21 January, 2002 15:47 Subject: Re: [STMFC] Quesions about a depressed center flat car : Norm, : : There should be two sets of AB brakes on this car, one on each end. The rodding couldn't be bent around : the depressed part of the frame. This means there should also be two brake stands. It is possible that : some cars of this type had truck-mounted brake cylinders due to the tight space around the bolsters, but : I can't swear to that. : : At least Athearn got this part right on their 4-truck flat car. It has brake wheels at each end. : : I don't know about TPRX, but if this is a real reporting mark, it will be in the ORER. The articles in : the Kalmbach book largely date from the early 1950s, so that is the approximate era to check. : : Kind regards, : : : Garth G. Groff : : : Norm Dresner wrote: : > : > As an excuse for trying out my new bandsaw, I started scratchbuilding : > the depressed center flat car which is described in an ancient : > Kalmbach book entitled "Easy-to-Build Model Railroad Freight Cars" and : > sub-titled "24 Dollar Car Projects from the pages of Model : > Railroader". (This book is (C) 1971, a mere 30 years old as I'm sure : > I bought it soon after it hit the market). : > : > Anyway, there's what purports to be a prototype "sketch" (I'd hate to : > call it a drawing) with the markings "TPRX" giving it's capacities as : > CAPY 190000 : > LdLmt. 195800 : > Lt. Wt 55200 : > new 12-47 : > : > and showing a car with two two-axle trucks. : > : > I have two questions: : > 1. What might have been the prototype for this model, if any? : > 2. Where on a depressed-center flat car is the brake gear located? : > : > I'd appreciate any information on this car -- or anything like it. : > : > : > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: : > STMFC-unsubscribe@... : > : > : > : > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ : : ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> : Access Your PC from Anywhere : It's Easy. It's Fun. - Free Download. : http://us.click.yahoo.com/rTeR8D/7XkDAA/DIxGAA/9MtolB/TM : ---------------------------------------------------------- -----------~-> : : To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: : STMFC-unsubscribe@... : : : : Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ : : |
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Norm Dresner <ndrez@...>
Wonderful information . Thanks
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Norm ----- Original Message -----
From: Ian Cranstone <lamontc@...> To: <STMFC@...> Sent: Monday, January 21, 2002 5:29 PM Subject: Re: [STMFC] Quesions about a depressed center flat car was listedFrom: "Norm Dresner" <ndrez@...>I have two questions:TPRX was the reporting mark of the Texas Power & Light Co., which until the Jan. 1958 ORER (it reappeared in the 1980s). They listedone car in the Oct. 1949 ORER, namely depressed centre flat car TPRX 1.under2. Where on a depressed-center flat car is the brake gear located?Most of CN's older cars were constructed with components shoehorned the end platforms -- I'm sure the intent was to keep the top clearfor overlength loads. More recent cars have had to place somecomponents on top of the span bolsters, but the use of truck-mounted brake cylindershas reduced the number to place. As others have already noted, it wasextremely common for these cars to have two completely separate brake systems,one at each end.http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ |
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Ian Cranstone
From: "Norm Dresner" <ndrez@...> I have two questions:TPRX was the reporting mark of the Texas Power & Light Co., which was listed until the Jan. 1958 ORER (it reappeared in the 1980s). They listed one car in the Oct. 1949 ORER, namely depressed centre flat car TPRX 1. 2. Where on a depressed-center flat car is the brake gear located?Most of CN's older cars were constructed with components shoehorned under the end platforms -- I'm sure the intent was to keep the top clear for overlength loads. More recent cars have had to place some components on top of the span bolsters, but the use of truck-mounted brake cylinders has reduced the number to place. As others have already noted, it was extremely common for these cars to have two completely separate brake systems, one at each end. -- Ian Cranstone Kanata, Ontario, Canada lamontc@... |
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mbcarson2002
Norm,
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Although I am not certain, I don't see why a mechanical system of rodding, chains, and springs couldn't be designed to pass under the depressed center section and connect the two sections of the braking system. The train airline is probably the simplest part of the part of the puzzle. The details of the brake rodding are usually poorly documented on most plan sets I have seen. Regards, Mike Carson ----- Original Message -----
From: "Norm Dresner" <ndrez@...> To: <mbcarson@...> Cc: "steamfreight" <STMFC@...> Sent: Monday, 21 January, 2002 15:30 Subject: Re: [STMFC] Quesions about a depressed center flat car : Thanks for the info. I'm still waiting for my MM issue. : : Now if the original article was in fact based on a prototype that had : brake wheels at both ends, how would the motion from the one at the : end away from the valve/reservoir have been communicated to the brake : gear? : : Norm : : ----- Original Message ----- : From: Michael Carson <mbcarson@...> : To: <STMFC@...> : Sent: Monday, January 21, 2002 4:24 PM : Subject: Re: [STMFC] Quesions about a depressed center flat car : : : > FWIW, the MR article on the depressed center flatcar : > was published in February 1955. : > : > The MM plans and accompanying photos show the single : > reservoir & triple valve mounted on top of one of elevated : > portions of the flat car near the brake wheel (the B end, : > naturally). : > : > Regards, : > : > Mike Carson : > : > ----- Original Message ----- : > From: "Garth G. Groff" <ggg9y@...> : > To: <STMFC@...> : > Sent: Monday, 21 January, 2002 15:47 : > Subject: Re: [STMFC] Quesions about a depressed center flat : > car : > : > : > : Norm, : > : : > : There should be two sets of AB brakes on this car, one on : > each end. The rodding couldn't be bent around : > : the depressed part of the frame. This means there should : > also be two brake stands. It is possible that : > : some cars of this type had truck-mounted brake cylinders : > due to the tight space around the bolsters, but : > : I can't swear to that. : > : : > : At least Athearn got this part right on their 4-truck flat : > car. It has brake wheels at each end. : > : : > : I don't know about TPRX, but if this is a real reporting : > mark, it will be in the ORER. The articles in : > : the Kalmbach book largely date from the early 1950s, so : > that is the approximate era to check. : > : : > : Kind regards, : > : : > : : > : Garth G. Groff : > : : > : : > : Norm Dresner wrote: : > : > : > : > As an excuse for trying out my new bandsaw, I started : > scratchbuilding : > : > the depressed center flat car which is described in an : > ancient : > : > Kalmbach book entitled "Easy-to-Build Model Railroad : > Freight Cars" and : > : > sub-titled "24 Dollar Car Projects from the pages of : > Model : > : > Railroader". (This book is (C) 1971, a mere 30 years : > old as I'm sure : > : > I bought it soon after it hit the market). : > : > : > : > Anyway, there's what purports to be a prototype "sketch" : > (I'd hate to : > : > call it a drawing) with the markings "TPRX" giving it's : > capacities as : > : > CAPY 190000 : > : > LdLmt. 195800 : > : > Lt. Wt 55200 : > : > new 12-47 : > : > : > : > and showing a car with two two-axle trucks. : > : > : > : > I have two questions: : > : > 1. What might have been the prototype for this : > model, if any? : > : > 2. Where on a depressed-center flat car is the brake : > gear located? : > : > : > : > I'd appreciate any information on this car -- or : > anything like it. : > : > : > : > : > : > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: : > : > STMFC-unsubscribe@... : > : > : > : > : > : > : > : > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to : > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ : > : : > : ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups : > Sponsor ---------------------~--> : > : Access Your PC from Anywhere : > : It's Easy. It's Fun. - Free Download. : > : http://us.click.yahoo.com/rTeR8D/7XkDAA/DIxGAA/9MtolB/TM : > : ---------------------------------------------------------- : > -----------~-> : > : : > : To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: : > : STMFC-unsubscribe@... : > : : > : : > : : > : Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to : > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ : > : : > : : > : > : > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: : > STMFC-unsubscribe@... : > : > : > : > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to : http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ : > : > : : : ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> : Tiny Wireless Camera under $80! : Order Now! FREE VCR Commander! : Click Here - Only 1 Day Left! : http://us.click.yahoo.com/WoOlbB/7.PDAA/ySSFAA/9MtolB/TM : ---------------------------------------------------------- -----------~-> : : To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: : STMFC-unsubscribe@... : : : : Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ : : |
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byronrose@...
On Mon, 21 Jan 2002 12:58:22 -0800 thompson@... writes:
Garth Groff said:There should be two sets of AB brakes on this car, one on each end.Therodding couldn't be bent aroundtwo brake Tony, do you really think that it takes two sets of AB brakes to control a 95 ton capacity car? Would you really want your brake rodding and levers no more than 12 inches above railhead? Would you want that car in your train when a piece of scrap at a grade crossing ripped half of the system off at 65 mph going down grade? BSR ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. |
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byronrose@...
On Mon, 21 Jan 2002 15:07:59 -0500 "Norm Dresner" <ndrez@...> writes:
As an excuse for trying out my new bandsaw, I started scratchbuilding I have two questions: Norm (and some of you clods who haven't a clue as to how we got where we are), That book, and the articles written in that series in MR during the 50s and 60s on which it was based, are as responsible as any other single factor for the beautiful and accurate freight car models we enjoy today. The models were usually very accurate, more so than most contemporary kits, and introduced modelers to car types other than the generic and fanciful box cars and reefers represented by Athearn and Varney kits. I would have no reason to dispute any of the prototype data represented in any of the articles, they were usually taken from cars in the yards near the MR offices. In fact, one article stressed how they photographed a wooden express reefer, measured it, and then proceeded to build it. How many here have ever done that? (Hmmm, I don't see any hands up. I'm not surprised.) The "TPRX" I'm sure, represents the actual reporting marks on the prototype car and I'm sure some good deed doer will take the time to look it up and pass it on. At the time of the original article, few authors used fictitious markings in their presentation of prototype data. They may have used such on their own model. The only area they were weak on was underbody detailing, but since that's no different than the present day practice of some of the more illustrious members on this very list, what's the big deal? But to answer your question, the brake gear on depressed center flats was usually numbered down under the high decks at either end. Sometimes there were two complete sets, each working one truck because there was no way to run rodding between the ends of the car. Therefore, the hand brake would only acted on one truck, so there would usually be two hand brakes. Some cars, a very few in fact, had rodding along the side of the car tying A end brake "stuff" to B end. One three dimensional source of information you might seek out are the brass cars made by Railworks. They had an interesting variety of Pennsy flats, including several depressed center cars (and some high capacity types, with 4 - 4 wheel or 6 wheel trucks). They had full brake rigging on all. There was a Soo Line d/c flat car made by Overland which was very similar to the one in the book article which would give you a good lesson on how the brakes were shoehorned into a very limited space. It was actually based on an article in MR in the 80s, I think. That article may have some brake rigging included, commonly included in freight car articles of that era. A fully detailed model would severely limit the radii that a model could operate on. If you think you might want to detail such a car, contact me off line and I can send you some Xerox copies of these models, and even the 4 truck Athearn flat car I added two sets of ABs and levers to. It worked well on straight track only. I think it might even take a 48" radius curve if I replaced the Athearn wheels of its day with some present day scale flange wheelsets. Another project! These days the brake gear on prototype d/c flats is installed above the deck making the cars a little more interesting in appearance than the older cars. They can get away with it because they don't build them as short as they used to. The bigger decks give more room for the necessary blocking to stabilize the loads as well as access to the brake gear. Maybe I ought to look up the book and that article and see if I still agree with my off the cuff remarks. BSR ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. |
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Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
When did truck mounted brakes come into use? Seems to me they
would eliminate the problem of mechanical linkage via rods. My guess is that the cars had hand brakes at each end as a safety factor. For example, a brakeman might not be able to traverse the car while it was in motion (if the load was very wide), it was good to have a hand brake that could be set from either end. Tony, do you really think that it takes two sets of AB brakes to control Timothy O'Connor <timoconnor@...> Sterling, Massachusetts |
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thompson@...
Byron asks:
Tony, do you really think that it takes two sets of AB brakes to control a 95 ton capacity car?Normal AB brakes of that era were for 50- or 70-ton cars (140,000 pounds capacity). So yes, it might well have taken two sets. And remember, the nominal capacity is not the maximum load. Would you really want your brake rodding and levers no more than 12Byron, look at the brake levers on any truck and tell me how close they are to the railhead. Would you want that car in your train when a piece of scrap at a gradeBrake gear did indeed get ripped off cars. Still does. And the 65 mph downgrade doesn't sound like prudent railroading to me. Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 http://www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@... Publishers of books on railroads and on Western history |
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Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...>
Tony and Byron,
I have to agree with Tony on this point. If a depressed center car was carrying the sort of load they were designed for, wouldn't the train likely be under some sort of slow order? Of course, if the car was empty, such conditions were less unlikely to apply for a car of the size we are discussing (Schnabble cars are probably another matter). Kind regards, Garth G. Groff Byron thrusts with the verbal foil: To which Tony ripostes with his razor-sharp epe of wit:
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Denis F. Blake <dblake3@...>
I am looking at a drawing for a Seaboard Air Line depressed center flat, car
# 7000-7004. These cars were rated at 125 tons. They feature the following brake equipment. Schedule double AB-1012;type "B" relay on the A end of the car. Fittings Extra heavy duty unions & couplings Brake power 22% of gross rail load @50 # cylinder pressure I have to agree that the double set of brake is to handle the large capacity of these cars. However, this is for a 125 ton car and not a 95 ton car. Also, these cars only show 7 3/8" of clearance from the bottom of the side sill to the top of the rail. I can send anyone who want's a copy of this diagram one, all they have to do is ask.. Denis F. Blake Columbus, Ohio TTHOTS |
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billd@...
The railroads refer to these type of loads as "high-wide". And they are given a slower than normal speed limit...I believe that the maximum speed for a high-wide train is 45 mph.
Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ On Tue, 22 Jan 2002 14:12:07 -0500 "Garth G. Groff" <ggg9y@...> wrote: Tony and Byron, |
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ljack70117@...
When I was on the UPRR in 1949/51 it was 25 mph
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Thank you Larry Jackman billd@... wrote:
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byronrose@...
On Tue, 22 Jan 2002 11:58:29 -0500 "Tim O'Connor"
<timoconnor@...> writes: When did truck mounted brakes come into use? Seems to me theyNo Tim, the cars had hand brakes at each end because they had a brake system at each end. The shorter cars, i.e. the 95 ton capy car in question, had two systems because it was built before truck mounted brake cylinders came into use and its depressed center was very depressed. For example, a brakeman might not be able to traverse the carYou've been looking at too many of those 1890 woodcuts with dozens of brakemen atop the cars to set the brakes in a moving train during a fierce blizzard. About the only time brakes were set by hand in the last century was when the car was removed from a train and they wanted it to stay where it was. There was usually enough ground nearby to get around the widest load you could imagine. Otherwise they never had occasion to set the brakes per car on a moving train. That was one of the reasons the AB brake with its emergency reservoir came into being. BSR ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. |
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