1937 box cars questions


Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
 

In spite of all the great resources and articles
published on these cars, and even on Ted Culotta's web
site www.steamfreightcars.com I am trying to finish some
Des Plaines Hobbies kits and lack some basic information.

C&EI 64150 "Buy War Bonds" - Delivered 1937 w/ black doors.
Were the black doors repainted for this paint scheme? At
some point these cars received steel running boards. Any
idea when? What style hand brakes? On this model I modified
the door to represent the earlier style release lever. Are
there any resin cast models of this type of door?

C&O 4124 - What style hand brakes? Also, the laterals on
the wood running board are recessed from the roof edge.
(See photo RMJ 6/1994.) Was this a common practice on
these cars, or a GATC builder practice?

NKP 15153 -- What style hand brakes? According to Ed Hawkins
these cars had "double truss" trucks and according to Richard
Hendrickson the only model of these are the Kadee Bettendorf.

All of the above cars had 8-rung ladders (omitted from Ted's
otherwise excellent spreadsheet). I'm also doing Erie 78734
which had Apex rb, Ajax hb and National Type B trucks.

Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...> *** NEW EMAIL ADDRESS ***
Sterling, Massachusetts


Richard Hendrickson
 

In spite of all the great resources and articles
published on these cars, and even on Ted Culotta's web
site www.steamfreightcars.com I am trying to finish some
Des Plaines Hobbies kits and lack some basic information.

C&EI 64150 "Buy War Bonds" - Delivered 1937 w/ black doors.
Were the black doors repainted for this paint scheme?
I have several photos of these cars after repainting and none had black
doors. But I don't have a photo of a "Buy War Bonds" car.

At some point these cars received steel running boards. Any
idea when?
Two cars reweighed in 1947 and 1952 still had wood running boards, but a
car reweighed in 1953 had an Apex steel running board. Suggestive, though
not conclusive.

What style hand brakes?
All the cars in my photos have Ajax.

On this model I modified
the door to represent the earlier style release lever. Are
there any resin cast models of this type of door?
Not to my knowledge, and that's a part that's much needed.

C&O 4124 - What style hand brakes?
Ajax on 4246 and 4249

Also, the laterals on
the wood running board are recessed from the roof edge.
(See photo RMJ 6/1994.) Was this a common practice on
these cars, or a GATC builder practice?
Fairly common, and not confined to cars built by GATC.

NKP 15153 -- What style hand brakes? According to Ed Hawkins
these cars had "double truss" trucks and according to Richard
Hendrickson the only model of these are the Kadee Bettendorf.
Ajax on 15380. And the photos confirm that the trucks are double truss.


Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


Larry Boerio
 

Can someone describe, or refer me to pictures (prototype might be best)
which show the difference between double truss spring plankless (Kadee 500
per Richard Henderson) and a regular Bettendorf.

I've looked at pictures in the Kadee booklet and compared the Kadee 500 to
a) my Lindberg Bettendorf (U Section side frame, spring plankless per
Richard H.) and b) pictures in Walther's catalog of the Walthers 1001
(Bettendorf). I can't see the difference except for the type of journal
box. I'm obviously missing something.

I am not familiar with the term "double truss" or "spring plankless".
Perhaps a description or clear picture of these would help me.

Thanks for your assistance.

Regards,

Larry


--- Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@...> wrote:

NKP 15153 -- What style hand brakes? According to Ed Hawkins
these cars had "double truss" trucks and according to Richard
Hendrickson the only model of these are the Kadee Bettendorf.
Ajax on 15380. And the photos confirm that the trucks are double truss.


Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520



=====
Regards,

Larry Boerio
Buena Park, CA
"May Steam and First Generation Diesel live Forever!"
Member: Fullerton Railway Plaza Assoc., Orange Empire Railway Mus., CA State
Railroad Mus., National Railway Historical Soc., National Model Railroad Assoc., Santa Fe Railway Histoical and Modeling Society, Westerners-LA, L.A. Conservancy, Autry Mus. of Western Heritage

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Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
 

Richard,

Thanks very much for the help. I also plan to apply Accurail
"scale" couplers and draft gear on my models, the first time
I have used these.

Speaking of the doors, I was EXTREMELY exasperated when I dug
out my Sunshine kit for the SP A-50-13 box car -- since that
prototype had this style of door levers -- only to find that
this detail had simply been completely omitted from the model
doors! In other words the model doors have no release levers
at all, of any style. It doesn't take too much time (about 20
minutes) to fabricate 2-foot levers (i.e. don't look at them
any closer than that) but I sure would like to see a finely
detailed version of these very distinctive appliances.

On this model I modified
the door to represent the earlier style release lever. Are
there any resin cast models of this type of door?
Not to my knowledge, and that's a part that's much needed.
Just in case everyone is wondering what we're talking about I
uploaded a detail scan of the door levers to the photos area.

http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/stmfc/vwp?.dir=/&.dnm=SP+A-50-13+door+detail.jpg&.src=gr&.view=t&.hires=t

Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...> *** NEW EMAIL ADDRESS ***
Sterling, Massachusetts


Bill Kelly
 

Tim O asked:
snip<
C&O 4124 - What style hand brakes?
The diagram book says Ajax.

NKP 15153 -- What style hand brakes?
The diagram book says Ajax.

Both of these cars had double truss trucks.
Tichy "Bettendorf" are also double truss trucks.

Later,
Bill Kelly



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Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
 

I am not familiar with the term "double truss" or "spring plankless".
Perhaps a description or clear picture of these would help me.
Larry, a "spring plank" is literally like a "plank of wood" that
sits under the spring package and spans between the pair of truck
sideframes. It is parallel to, and directly underneath, the truck
bolster. Usually it is a piece of steel channel, and is easily
recognized by the end that protrudes under the spring package.
It fell out of favor for many, many years but I have noticed it
has made a comeback in the 1990's especially on high speed cars
like Amtrak express cars and autoracks. Spring planks are never
actually modeled AFAIK, except for the visible end under the
spring package.

I think the theory of the spring plank was that it reduced the
tendency of truck sideframes to bow inwards, or outwards. In
fact, this is the big problem with sprung model trucks -- as
the weight on the bolster increases, the sideframes go out of
square and impinge on the axle ends, creating a lot of drag.
One piece model trucks generally won't deform except under
extreme loads, so they perform better.


Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...> *** NEW EMAIL ADDRESS ***
Sterling, Massachusetts


Roger J Miener <Roger.Miener@...>
 

Tim O'Connor explains ...

Larry, a "spring plank" is literally like a "plank of wood" that
sits under the spring package and spans between the pair of truck
sideframes. It is parallel to, and directly underneath, the truck
bolster. Usually it is a piece of steel channel, and is easily
recognized by the end that protrudes under the spring package.
and then goes on to suggest ...

.... Spring planks are never
actually modeled AFAIK, except for the visible end under the
spring package.
They were supplied with the trucks included in Intermountain's O Scale
reefer, lo these many years a ago. Not easy to install.

One piece model trucks generally won't deform except under
extreme loads, so they perform better.
For all intents and purposes, no deformation occurs with the
three-piece "equalizing" trucks available from Red Caboose - the two
sideframes simply plug into the bolster. The sideframes are free to
rotate - but not free to splay. I think that this same three-piece
"snap together" design truck has been done by Grant Line as an OEM
item for DesPlaines Hobbies for use with the latter's recent release
of a kit for the Soo Line Caboose. (I had hoped to confirm this bit
of info by reading the review of the Soo caboose that appears in the
current issue of Model Railroader. No such luck - the reviewer said
nothing about the trucks except that they were included.)

Roger Miener
at Tacoma WA


ljack70117@...
 

The trucks on the S Scale America Tank car are the same design.
Thank you
Larry Jackman

Roger J Miener wrote:


Tim O'Connor explains ...

Larry, a "spring plank" is literally like a "plank of wood" that
sits under the spring package and spans between the pair of truck
sideframes. It is parallel to, and directly underneath, the truck
bolster. Usually it is a piece of steel channel, and is easily
recognized by the end that protrudes under the spring package.
and then goes on to suggest ...

.... Spring planks are never
actually modeled AFAIK, except for the visible end under the
spring package.
They were supplied with the trucks included in Intermountain's O Scale
reefer, lo these many years a ago. Not easy to install.

One piece model trucks generally won't deform except under
extreme loads, so they perform better.
For all intents and purposes, no deformation occurs with the
three-piece "equalizing" trucks available from Red Caboose - the two
sideframes simply plug into the bolster. The sideframes are free to
rotate - but not free to splay. I think that this same three-piece
"snap together" design truck has been done by Grant Line as an OEM
item for DesPlaines Hobbies for use with the latter's recent release
of a kit for the Soo Line Caboose. (I had hoped to confirm this bit
of info by reading the review of the Soo caboose that appears in the
current issue of Model Railroader. No such luck - the reviewer said
nothing about the trucks except that they were included.)

Roger Miener
at Tacoma WA


Jeff English
 

"Tim O'Connor" <timoconnor@...> wrote:

I have noticed it
has made a comeback in the 1990's especially on high speed cars
like Amtrak express cars and autoracks.
Special-application trucks attempt to stiffen the structure in
directions where motion is undesirable (such as racking) while
lessening restrictions against desired movement (such as
"steering"). It's not completely clear how, but a spring plank must
contribute in some way.

Spring planks are never
actually modeled AFAIK, except for the visible end under the
spring package.
The Pacific Rail Shops '37 AAR cars come with trucks with
spring planks, and the planks are a separate part.

---------------------------------------------------------------
Jeff English Troy, New York
Proto:64 Classic Era Railroad Modeling
englij@...

| R U T L A N D R A I L R O A D |
Route of the Whippet
---------------------------------------------------------------


Richard Hendrickson
 

Larry Boerio writes:

Can someone describe, or refer me to pictures (prototype might be best)
which show the difference between double truss spring plankless (Kadee 500
per Richard Henderson) and a regular Bettendorf.

I've looked at pictures in the Kadee booklet and compared the Kadee 500 to
a) my Lindberg Bettendorf (U Section side frame, spring plankless per
Richard H.) and b) pictures in Walther's catalog of the Walthers 1001
(Bettendorf). I can't see the difference except for the type of journal
box. I'm obviously missing something.

I am not familiar with the term "double truss" or "spring plankless".
Perhaps a description or clear picture of these would help me.
Tim has already given a good account of a spring plank. Of the so-called
"Bettendorf" trucks now on the market, only the Accurail and Model Die
Casting trucks have a spring plank represented (the old Red Ball/Cape Line
truck, and perhaps some earlier HO trucks, had spring planks as well).
Double truss trucks had the lower chords of the side frames boxed in, with
shallow stiffening ribs on top of the box sections that extended down into
the spring seats. Someone suggested that the Tichy "Bettendorf" truck
represented a double truss truck, but it does not have the distinctive
stiffening rib (as the Kadee truck does). That's a subtle detail, however,
and I'm more inclined to choose trucks according to how closely their
sideframe configuration matches that of the prototype trucks and whether
their journal boxes are anywhere near scale size (on most HO trucks,
especially the older ones, the journal boxes are way too big).

These and other variations on the ARA/AAR standard truck designs are well
illustrated in the 1920s through early '50s Car Builder's Cycs, and also in
my article on trucks in Railroad Prototype Cyclopedia Vol. 4, which I
believe is still in print.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


Jeff English
 

ljack70117@... wrote:

The trucks on the S Scale America Tank car are the same design.
Thank you
Larry Jackman
I own a genuine SSA tank car, and the trucks that came with it
sure as hell don't have anything remotely resembling spring planks.
Likewise, after Des Plaines Hobbies bought the tooling for this
tank car, and I own one of these as well, it appears that some
revision was done on the trucks but still no spring planks.

---------------------------------------------------------------
Jeff English Troy, New York
Proto:64 Classic Era Railroad Modeling
englij@...

| R U T L A N D R A I L R O A D |
Route of the Whippet
---------------------------------------------------------------


ljack70117@...
 

Sorry you mis read my post. If I remember the way they assembled was a
round rod on the back od the side frame snapped in to the bolster like
the Intermountain trucks. I said nothing about spring plank but was
referring to the assembly
Thank you
Larry Jackman

Jeff English wrote:


ljack70117@... wrote:

The trucks on the S Scale America Tank car are the same design.
Thank you
Larry Jackman
I own a genuine SSA tank car, and the trucks that came with it
sure as hell don't have anything remotely resembling spring planks.
Likewise, after Des Plaines Hobbies bought the tooling for this
tank car, and I own one of these as well, it appears that some
revision was done on the trucks but still no spring planks.

---------------------------------------------------------------
Jeff English Troy, New York
Proto:64 Classic Era Railroad Modeling


Jeff English
 

ljack70117@... wrote:

Sorry you mis read my post. If I remember the way they assembled was a
round rod on the back od the side frame snapped in to the bolster like the
Intermountain trucks. I said nothing about spring plank but was referring
to the assembly Thank you Larry Jackman
Sorry for misinterpreting what you said. While this type of
assembly makes sense for model construction, I've never evaluated
whether the assembly has low enough stiffness to allow effective
equalization. My conclusion is that equalization is not necessary
for freight car trucks in P:64 but may be helpful. It seems,
however, to be necessary for 8-ft wheelbase trucks typical of 1st-
generation Diesel locomotives.

---------------------------------------------------------------
Jeff English Troy, New York
Proto:64 Classic Era Railroad Modeling
englij@...

| R U T L A N D R A I L R O A D |
Route of the Whippet
---------------------------------------------------------------