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Rice Shipments By Rail
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Shawn Beckert
List,
I'm looking at a Sanborn Map of Woodland, California dated November, 1943. The subject of interest is the Woodland Rice Company located on the Southern Pacific. Quite a large facility with a long spur track next to the main warehouse. My question while looking at this: When would rice stop moving in boxcars out west and start moving in hoppers? I know granger roads were using boxcars for this job into the 1970's or later, but what about the West Coast? Judging by the date of this map rice was probably still getting bagged and shipped in boxcars, but didn't the SP get their first 3-bay hoppers for grain-loading around 1947 or thereabouts? So rice-and other grains-would move in boxcars on the SP until gradually replaced by the covered hoppers of the 1950's and '60's. Does this sound reasonable, or are my facts all messed up? Shawn Beckert |
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Richard Hendrickson
Shawn Beckert writes:
Does this sound reasonable, or are my facts all messed up?Your facts are all messed up, but I'll let Thompson straighten you out, since he can do it off the top of his head (but he's on a weekend trip and won't be contributing to the list for several days). Meanwhile, I'll just point out that the SP had no covered hoppers at all until 1947-'48 and its early covered hopper purchases were all cement cars. Richard H. Hendrickson Ashland, Oregon 97520 |
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Shawn Beckert
Mr. Hendrickson wrote:
Your facts are all messed up, but I'll let ThompsonI don't need to be clubbed by Tony again, thank you. A look at Lee Gautreaux's website reveals this info: 3-Bay Covered Hoppers --------------------- SSW 76075-76149 Pullman-Standard 1955 SSW 76500-76799 Pullman-Standard 1959 SP 490000-490099 Pullman-Standard 1959 I was off by seven years. Sorry. The last sentence in my post read "So rice-and other grains-would move in boxcars on the SP until gradually replaced by the covered hoppers of the 1950's and '60's." Judging from the data given above, that statement still stands. Shawn Beckert |
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Richard Hendrickson
Regarding SP covered hoppers, Shawn Beckert writes:
A look at Lee Gautreaux's website reveals this info:Well, I can't say that I agree. The 1955 and 1959 SSW orders were doubtless intended for and were largely used to move SSW traffic. While it has been true more recently that SP and SSW equipment were used more or less interchangeably, that wasn't the case in the 1950s. I'd be surprised of those SSW cars turned up in Calif. more than occasionally. And as the 1959 SP order consisted of only a hundred cars, it can hardly have revolutionized the SP's handling of rice shipments. I'd say that Calif. rice was transported almost entirely in box cars through the 1950s and well into the 1960s. In fact, it probably wasn't until the 1970s that covered hoppers would have outnumbered XMs in this service. Richard H. Hendrickson Ashland, Oregon 97520 |
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Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
Richard Hendrickson writes
Well, I can't say that I agree. The 1955 and 1959 SSW orders wereRichard, I mostly agree with you that railroads were slow to utilize high capacity covered hoppers for grain service -- a major reason being that until the landmark "Big John" decision, railroads were unable to implement incentive rates for more efficient use of the cars. However, that said, I suspect SSW did use those 3-bay cars from the 1950's for rice, since rice was a major commodity on the Cotton Belt. And rice travels quite far -- if there are any Budweiser breweries in California, then I would be very surprised if SSW hoppers were not carrying rice to them before 1960... As for California rice, I don't know. Was rice a big crop in California? I do have photos of 50 foot double door SP box cars circa late 1960's with large "R" symbols painted on their left hand (yellow painted) door. One guy told me this meant the car was in rice service, another said it was rubber service. Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...> Sterling, Massachusetts |
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Jon Miller <atsf@...>
Was rice a big crop in California<This is from memory and with me not to be trusted but thought CA was the largest rice producing state for quite some time. Maybe not in the 50's though. Jon Miller AT&SF For me time has stopped in 1941 Digitrax DCC owner, Chief system NMRA Life member #2623 Member SFRH&MS |
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Dave & Libby Nelson <muskoka@...>
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-----Original Message----- National rice shipments by rail in 1950, per the ICC, shows California is aWas rice a big crop in California<This is from memory and with me not to be trusted but thought CA was the distant 3rd place: LA: 32% TX: 29% CA: 5% FWIW, rice was the 4th most common outbound shipment on the Sacramento Northern in 1956, totalling 832 carloads. ANyway, today, the relative state standing looks like this (acres in production) Arkansas 1,290,000 Louisiana 680,000 California 560,000 Texas 290,000 Dave Nelson |
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Dave & Libby Nelson <muskoka@...>
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-----Original Message----- I'd say that Calif.**much speculation with the occasional inserted fact follows** One should not overlook that a lot of rice is milled into flour for use in the manufacture of baby food -- not just rice cerial but as a thickener in the small jars of orange, beige, and green that Gerber sells. Likely that flour would have been bagged and shipped in boxcars. And I will hazzard another guess that in the steam era there were more Americans consuming baby foods than rice grain. I looked again at the ICC data (some data from 1950, others from 1956). In 1950 and 1956 rice carloading averaged 48 tons/car; California rice shipments in 1950 were ~78,000 tons, so there where an estimated 1625 carloadings for the year. In 1956 (which I'll guess wasn't significantly different than 1950) the SN originated over 800 carloads of rice, WP had 4. If 1950 and 1956 were indeed fairly close in total rail shippments of rice, one could conclude the SN originated about half the crop, the WP none, leaving the other half to the SP. As the WP did the long shipment of rice originated by the SN, their revenue, not the SN's, would more closely approximate what the SP would earn. For 1950, the WP got $5.94/ton, or $282/carload of rice (virtually the same as corn and a bit more than either cement or sugar). Would the SP invested in specialized cars for 800 carloadings a year, equivalent to 39,000 tons? Well, rice left in the hull can sit for a year, maybe two, with little loss of quality. I'd guess then that shipments of grain from rice mills could have been spread rather evenly across the year. For the example data above, the SP share would have averaged 66 carloadings a month... assuming a 10-14 day cycle time, they could have meet the needs with 30 cars. I doubt they've have even been aware they had the business much less considered an investment for it. Lastly, to add a bit of perspective, rail shipment of cement producted in California in 1950 was over 1.3 million tons. That was probably noticed by the SP. Dave Nelson |
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Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
Dave Nelson wrote
I looked again at the ICC data (some data from 1950, others from 1956). InNo, but SSW would. Together, Arkansas and Lousiana produced 3x as much rice as California, and the markets are much further away than they are in the Sacramento River valley where nearly all California rice is grown. U.S. production of rice has exploded 4-fold in the last 25 years, but was pretty stable around 2 million tons annually before that. Currently about 16% of rice is used to produce beer -- I will guess that the proportion of rice used in beer 40 years ago was far higher, closer to 35-40%. (This is because per capita beer consumption has declined while per capita rice use has skyrocketed.) As regards freight cars however, I am sure most railroad rice shipments prior to 1970 used bags of rice which travel quite well in box cars and not so well in covered hoppers. Obviously the most likely use of covered hoppers for rice, even today, is to food processors, breweries, and for export. (The U.S. share of the export rice market is 14% even though the U.S. produces just over 1% of all the rice in the world.) As I said, SSW and SP bought those 3 bay covered hoppers in the 1950's for SOMETHING -- and that probably included rice. But those who say that most rice still travelled in box cars (if it travelled by rail at all) are right too. Lastly, to add a bit of perspective, rail shipment of cement producted inCalifornia currently produces about 2 million tons of rice; that is about 1/4 of U.S. production. A lot of the rest comes from Arkansas, Louisiana and Mississippi. Most California rice probably still does not travel by rail since huge markets and export docks are very close by. Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...> Sterling, Massachusetts |
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Richard Hendrickson
Dave Nelson writes, regarding rice traffic from Calif.:
**much speculation with the occasional inserted fact follows**Well, Dave, it seems to me that the facts you cite are revealing and your speculations right on target. Richard H. Hendrickson Ashland, Oregon 97520 |
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Richard Hendrickson
Tim O'Connor writes:
California currently produces about 2 million tons of rice; that is aboutI can't cite numbers (and am not interested enough to do any research on this subject), but there are rice elevators all over the place in the Sacramento valley, most have rail spurs, and a LOT of covered hoppers are spotted at or near them. Most Calif. rice may not be shipped by rail, but a lot of it is. Rice is obviously a major source of traffic for the California Northern (ex-SP west side line). Richard H. Hendrickson Ashland, Oregon 97520 |
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Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...>
Shawn,
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I can't comment for certain on the SP, but the WP and subsidiary SN were buying 47' PS-2 hoppers and AC&F clones from 1958 to around 1961. The SN enjoyed considerable rice traffic at Woodland from Conaway Ranch. The ranch had a long spur which left the SN branch at the west end of the Elkhorn/Fremont trestle. IIRC, the SP was also buying large covered hoppers around this time. Kind regards, Garth G. Groff "Beckert, Shawn" wrote:
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Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...>
Dave and friends,
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A couple of additions to the rice question. The SN did a serious business in rice. In another post I already mentioned Conaway Ranch, a major rice loading point. When I was young, there was a lot of rice being grown in Yolo County, just west of Sacramento. IIRC, there was a major boom in rice cultivation by the late 1950s and early 1960s. Much of the rice was shipped from the Port of Sacramento, and there are several grain elevators there which load directly into ships. At least some of this rice came over the SN, probably in bulk by the 1960s (and a lot came from Conaway). Much of California's rice moved by truck and was a fairly short haul. I have seen a shot of bagged rice being unloaded from trucks at the River Lines terminal in Sacramento in the 1940s. There were also several large rice hulling plants in West Sacramento on the SN. If there was overland shipping of rice by rail originating on the SN, it certainly would have eventually moved via the WP, but I suspect most traffic was fairly short distance. Somebody commented on a Budwiser brewery. There is one at Fairfield, formerly on the SP (now served by the California Northern). It wasn't built until the 1960s. Before then, I think Budwiser's only California brewery was in Los Angeles. The SP did have some 47' PS-2s. IIRC these were in cement service. Maybe they started out hauling other commodities like rice, but when I saw them their roofs were covered with caked cement. Kind regards, Garth G. Groff Dave & Libby Nelson wrote: -----Original Message----- |
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Shawn Beckert
Fellow Listers,
First, I apologize to Richard if my posting of Friday came across as snippy. Last week was not a good one, and I'm sure a lot of my communications were edgy. The Woodland Rice Company facility wasn't small, taking up almost half the block. The SP spur stretches the length of one side of the property, with both a warehouse and four elevators next to the track. There is a note on the Sanborn map that reads "Capy. 2400 bags in 24 hours." I'm not sure what that entails, but if they were in operation around the clock obviously they had a thriving business. In one of the earlier editions of Freight Car Journal there are builders photos of the SSW 3-bay hoppers from P-S. On the sides of the cars a plate was fastened that showed the load limit of different kinds of grains, so I'd say that was the business these cars were intended for, at least originally. I don't remember if the SP 3-bay cars were pictured, but if they also had those capacity plates that would be an indication of what service they were going to be used for. Shawn Beckert |
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Richard Hendrickson
Fellow Listers,Apology gladly accepted, though quite unnecessary. We've all had weeks like that, and what are friends for if not to abuse when we're feeling grumpy? I do it myself from time to time, (as some of you have doubtless noticed). Richard H. Hendrickson Ashland, Oregon 97520 |
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George Gounley <gounleys@...>
I have enjoyed the discussion under this subject and would like to offer my
own experiences. Maybe the situation on the MoP in Louisiana in the early 1970s was similar to the SP's in California. The MP served (serves?) a rice mill just to the east of Lake Charles. In 1972-73 most of the mill's rail business was switching moves to the Port of Lake Charles, less than 10 miles away. IIRC, all of that business was moved bagged in 40' box cars. Most were MP cars, but, because there was a car shortage (the Russian wheat buy was moving then), foreign line free runners that were supplied by the car distributors or captured as they passed through empty were preferred for that service. A number of these were MPA cars, which did make for some confusion. The rate for the switching move was a flat $200 a car, which was good revenue considering the limited transport involved. The peak period for this switching movement was around December-January. Rice was shipped elsewhere as well, also mostly bagged in box cars. MP cars were preferred for this service since they would have to be loaded back to the railroad if they did go off line. I do remember brewer's rice being shipped to Anheuser-Busch in St. Louis in 100-ton MP covered hoppers. The revenue for that move was about $2,000 a car, and was about the highest I recall seeing on any move through the terminal. By way of contrast, during the same period I remember seeing at the Port of Beaumont a 100-ton covered hopper being loaded with coffee beans poured out of burlap bags, so rates for movement of at least some commodities in covered hoppers were sufficiently attractive to pay for high-priced stevedore labor doing the bagged to bulk transition at a port. George Gounley |
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