Intermountain down the tubes?


Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...>
 

Dear friends,

I just stumbled across an E-Bay listing for an assembled Intermountain SP 12-panel boxcar. What shocked
me was that the item is described as having WORKING DOORS. Can cast-on ladders be far behind?

Kind of cheesed off,


Garth G. Groff


Bill Schneider <branch@...>
 

Garth,

There's nothing wrong with working doors if they're done right. Our cars have had them since day one as have Kadee's and nobody's complained (about them!) yet...

Bill Schneider
Branchline Trains

----- Original Message -----
From: Garth G. Groff
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 3:45 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Intermountain down the tubes?


Dear friends,

I just stumbled across an E-Bay listing for an assembled Intermountain SP 12-panel boxcar. What shocked
me was that the item is described as having WORKING DOORS. Can cast-on ladders be far behind?

Kind of cheesed off,


Garth G. Groff

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
STMFC-unsubscribe@...



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
 

Kadee boxcars have working doors. So do Tichy boxcars. A
working door does not have to be cheesey -- it depends on
who cuts the cheese, so to speak.


Garth Groff ventilates

I just stumbled across an E-Bay listing for an assembled Intermountain
SP 12-panel boxcar. What shocked me was that the item is described as
having WORKING DOORS. Can cast-on ladders be far behind?

Kind of cheesed off,

Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
Sterling, Massachusetts


Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
 

At 04:09 PM 6/5/2002, you wrote:
Garth,

There's nothing wrong with working doors if they're done right. Our cars have had them since day one as have Kadee's and nobody's complained (about them!) yet...

Bill Schneider
Branchline Trains
Bill, actually we have complained about the doors; we just
haven't complained about them operating. ;o)))

P.S. Thanks for doing the 8-rung ladders. Now how about a
good Klasing brakewheel? <please?>

P.P.S. Oh yeah and Chrysler trucks.

P.P.P.S. Did I mention I need a thousand air hose brackets?


Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
Sterling, Massachusetts


asychis@...
 

In a message dated 06/11/2002 2:45:33 PM Central Daylight Time,
guaruba@... writes:


I joined this list thinking I might try a very serious product in HO but I
get cold feet when I realize one technical mistake and the project isn't
saleable.
Don,

You need to keep in mind that there are multiple markets. There are
customers that will purchase the car because they see it on the shelf, like
the look of it, either because of the type of car, or the paint scheme. They
aren't "bad" hobbyists, just motivated by their impressions with the product
they see. They would buy Inter Mountain R40-23 reefers painted for Needham
Packing, because they like the blue color. I think a lot of well-meaning
gift shoppers fall in this category.

There is also the hobbyist who is interested in a specific railroad, but not
terribly concerned the rolling stock or motive power is all that accurate.
They are more interested in the perception that they are running a
UP/PRR/SP/MP/whatever train.

Then there is the market for people who have an interest in the models being
as close to an exact replica of the prototype as possible. These are the
hardest to please, and rightly so. They consider accuracy to be paramount
and are willing to pay for it. It is because of these folks that the resin
kit business exists. However they will also buy good plastic kits and
assembled cars.

Therefore, it seems to me that a car that is mechanically well built, and
attractive could sell in from one to three of these markets, with the third
market (we rivet counters) constituting but a part of the total market. I
guess this is a long way around to say that if a model is produced with a
technical error, it by no means will fall flat on the market, it just won't
be accepted by the whole market.

It would be interesting to know what percentage of modelers fall into the
three categories mentioned above, and it there are additional categories I
have left out.

Jerry (avidly collecting MoPac rivets) Michels


Dennis Rockwell <dennis@...>
 

On 5 Jun, "Garth G. Groff" wrote:

I just stumbled across an E-Bay listing for an assembled
Intermountain SP 12-panel boxcar. What shocked me was that
the item is described as having WORKING DOORS. Can cast-on
ladders be far behind?
The N Scale Intermountain boxcars have had opening doors all
along, but still have separate ladders and grabs.
Micro-Trains and deLuxe Innovations also have opening doors,
but (mostly) cast-on detail parts.

Was this an N Scale car, perhaps?

Dennis


Guy Wilber
 

In a message dated 6/11/02 2:24:35 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
timoconnor@... writes:

<< There are many
prototypes that share qualities with the PS-1 box cars... >>

And then there are the F-70-7 flats from Southern Pacific that every modeler,
regardless of his favorite road, should have (at least) one of -- loaded with
lumber from the West, returning with tractors, pipe or any other open top
load suitable for flats.

A run of 500 would be perfect...this list alone might suck 'em up all up.

Regards,

Guy Wilber
Sparks, Nevada


Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...>
 

Dennis:

IIRC, this was a pre-assembled HO car. I was somewhat concerned that Intermountain is drifting more
toward the toy market. Most of their recent offerings for one of my roads (WP) not only carried the wrong
paint schemes for the car type, but the color of the paint was bogus for any car with that scheme (i.e.:
their current 40' PS-1 8' door boxcar in WHITE lettering). This is somewhat worrisome. Although it has
been pointed out that some of Intermountain's offerings left something to be desired, it appears that
they are increasingly sacrificing accuracy, and in a way that shows they aren't serious about prototype
fidelity.

As was pointed out by you and others, operating doors can still look good. Kadee and Branchline are two
HO examples cited.

Dennis Rockwell wrote:


On 5 Jun, "Garth G. Groff" wrote:

I just stumbled across an E-Bay listing for an assembled
Intermountain SP 12-panel boxcar. What shocked me was that
the item is described as having WORKING DOORS. Can cast-on
ladders be far behind?
The N Scale Intermountain boxcars have had opening doors all
along, but still have separate ladders and grabs.
Micro-Trains and deLuxe Innovations also have opening doors,
but (mostly) cast-on detail parts.

Was this an N Scale car, perhaps?

Dennis


To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
STMFC-unsubscribe@...



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Don Winter <guaruba@...>
 

As a mfger I can understand why Intermountain is heading for the toy market.
Over in 1:20 land they scream for accuracy but complain that the items are
too fragile, too expensive and too difficult to assemble if a kit. So I
wind up doing toys and sell them to the guys who never picked up a railroad
book.

I joined this list thinking I might try a very serious product in HO but I
get cold feet when I realize one technical mistake and the project isn't
saleable.

Oh, well I'll keep lurking and playing with all my new HO trains I've been
buying and studying! LOL

Don Winter


Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...>
 

Don,

I can understand your hesitation, but this is the place to find just the guys who can help you get your
HO product right. We have some of the best experts in the hobby in this group, and even the rest of us
can usually claim some expertise in certain arcane corners of knowledge (I'm the leading expert on the
Nelson & Albemarle, a 7-mile Virginia shortline that had no rolling stock of its own).

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff

Don Winter wrote:


As a mfger I can understand why Intermountain is heading for the toy market.
Over in 1:20 land they scream for accuracy but complain that the items are
too fragile, too expensive and too difficult to assemble if a kit. So I
wind up doing toys and sell them to the guys who never picked up a railroad
book.

I joined this list thinking I might try a very serious product in HO but I
get cold feet when I realize one technical mistake and the project isn't
saleable.

Oh, well I'll keep lurking and playing with all my new HO trains I've been
buying and studying! LOL

Don Winter


To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
STMFC-unsubscribe@...



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


endeimling@...
 

You could try O scale. You did ON3 at one time. Maybe
standard gauge would be interesting. A lot of stuff is
sold R-T-R with those huge flanges and robust ladders.
The stuff seems to sell. Atlas and IM are doing a lot
of stuff. There aren't as many rolling stock "experts"
to deal with.
Gene

As a mfger I can understand why Intermountain is heading for the toy market.
Over in 1:20 land they scream for accuracy but complain that the items are
too fragile, too expensive and too difficult to assemble if a kit. So I
wind up doing toys and sell them to the guys who never picked up a railroad
book.

I joined this list thinking I might try a very serious product in HO but I
get cold feet when I realize one technical mistake and the project isn't
saleable.

Oh, well I'll keep lurking and playing with all my new HO trains I've been
buying and studying! LOL

Don Winter



To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
STMFC-unsubscribe@...



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Don Winter <guaruba@...>
 

Thank you, Garth. If and when I pick a car I'll naturally run it by this
list.

Don


Bruce F. Smith <smithbf@...>
 

Don sez:
I joined this list thinking I might try a very serious product in HO but I
get cold feet when I realize one technical mistake and the project isn't
saleable.
Aw Don, don't mistake this list for the general consumer...heck,
Intermountain isn't going out of business because they sell bogus cars! <G>
Remember that we are a bunch of cranks who want perfection...its why Mike
had to create this list! I would look more to this group as a source of
technical expertise that you can use to help "get it right". The
advantages of that are that you can be confident that you did the best
possible job, and you'll hear fewer complaints from us...although you may
not sell any more "units"!

And another thing...make sure the "expert" in the field gets to see the
test shots...Neither Greg Martin nor I saw the LL P2K PRR HH1 (2-8-8-2)
versions prior to release, even though we had worked extensively with LL on
the project, or we would have let them in on all little secret...they all
had doghouses on the tenders, unlike the LL model.

So, how about a PRR H25 hopper in HO? Even Mike might use one or two on
Sherman Hill!

Happy Rails
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.
Scott-Ritchey Research Center
334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin
__
/ &#92;
__<+--+>________________&#92;__/___ ____________________________________
|- ______/ O O &#92;_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ |
| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 &#92; | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
|/_____________________________&#92;|_|____________________________________|
| O--O &#92;0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0


Don Winter <guaruba@...>
 

Thank you Jerry. Good thoughts to ponder.


thompson@...
 

Jerry Michels said:
Therefore, it seems to me that a car that is mechanically well built, and
attractive could sell in from one to three of these markets, with the third
market (we rivet counters) constituting but a part of the total market...
It would be interesting to know what percentage of modelers fall into the
three categories mentioned above, and it there are additional categories I
have left out.
On the one hand, the "rivet" guys are really a rather small part of the
market. I once heard a manufacturer say "5% or less, probably a fair amount
less." But as anyone who prints kit reviews or owns a hobby shop can tell
you, it is the kiss of death for any kit to be described as "wrong." Those
other two parts of the market are sufficiently aware of prototype issues to
make many of them leery of anything that is "wrong." Some reviewers will
say the overlap of the box car ends onto the car side isn't rendered
accurately, thus the entire kit is "wrong." This is unfortunate, but it can
really hurt a kit. I believe that's what Don Winter was talking about.
Thus it is true, I think, that the "accuracy" contingent has an influence
out of all proportion to its actual population--for better or worse.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 http://www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroads and on Western history


Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
 

Don Winter wrote

I joined this list thinking I might try a very serious product in HO but I
get cold feet when I realize one technical mistake and the project isn't
saleable.
Don, I think that idea is somewhat misinformed. I can't think of a
single model in HO scale that has come out in the last 10 years that
does not have some technical flaws -- including the Kadee PS-1, which
many think is as close to perfect as anyone has ever done.

Think of it this way: choose wisely, execute well, keep following
through, and you'll be amply rewarded with sales. There are many
prototypes that share qualities with the PS-1 box cars (huge number
of owners, paint schemes, and existence over a long span of time)
that have not been attempted in a P2K, Red Caboose, Intermountain,
or Red Caboose quality model -- much less a Kadee quality model.
Only a couple of them can be discussed here (Steam Era Freight Cars)
because of the 1960 cutoff date.

(A while back I heard Kadee was working on one of them -- the 3 bay
PS-2SD covered hopper -- but who knows?)


Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
Sterling, Massachusetts


Don Winter <guaruba@...>
 

Most of the plastic guys use big expensive machines and molds. My stuff is
small and I make my own molds. So I don't need huge volumes. But I wuold
hope to sell maybe 500 cars? Don


Don Winter <guaruba@...>
 

My machines are a bit too small to punch out O Scale Standard and that is a
rather tough market to boot.

Don


Don Winter <guaruba@...>
 

OK, let's suppose I choose a car that hasn't been done and is NOT close to
another car so it has seemingly high sales potential. Then add the fact I
have no painting facilities so the car is offered only unpainted. Then add
the fact that I can't compete pricewise with the big guys, so the car sells
for $20 plus and you have to glue it together. That car will only sell to
the rivit counters, unless it fills a very unique overlooked popular nitch
which I doubt that a single one exists.

But let's suppose I do a steam era structure, complete with errors that
kinda resembles something. Some of those mega kits go for big bucks and are
less costly to develop.

Comments?

Don Winter


Don Winter <guaruba@...>
 

Bruce, a vet? I do birds, met Richey and Scott at seminars. Rehab wild
birds, have a collection of 30 Queens. Do amateur research on plucking and
DIS.

Ok, PRR H25....hmmm... Don