C&BT boxcar kits


ian clasper <ian@...>
 

Hi Guys

C&BT produced many of the permutations of the post war boxcar, however as we
all know, many of their kits have been outclassed by Branchline, Red Caboose
and Intermountain, but not all.

Question is, which of the C&BT kits are worth keeping an eye open for ?

Ian Clasper


Andy Carlson
 

On Saturday, June 22, 2002, at 09:58 PM, ian clasper wrote:

Hi Guys

C&BT produced many of the permutations of the post war boxcar, however as we
all know, many of their kits have been outclassed by Branchline, Red Caboose
and Intermountain, but not all.

Question is, which of the C&BT kits are worth keeping an eye open for ?

Ian Clasper
Ian, as far as my feelings towards CB&T kits go, because the bulk of their cars are done now by others better, and more accurately, the only keepers are the 12 panel 10'6" 40' boxcars, and then, only the 6' and 8' door, diagonal panel roof versions. I don't know of any prototype 7' door car, and SF, D&RGW, and GN cars seemed to be built late enough to have utilized only the diag. roofs. Plus the good kitbash candidate for the earlier mentioned Erie 40' 12 panel car with a Branchline replacement end grafted on. I am going on recall only, and others are certainly encouraged to correct me. Regards,
Andy Carlson


ian clasper <ian@...>
 

Ian, as far as my feelings towards CB&T kits go, because the bulk of
their cars are done now by others better, and more accurately, the only
keepers are the 12 panel 10'6" 40' boxcars, and then, only the 6' and 8'
door, diagonal panel roof versions. I don't know of any prototype 7'
door car, and SF, D&RGW, and GN cars seemed to be built late enough to
have utilized only the diag. roofs. Plus the good kitbash candidate for
the earlier mentioned Erie 40' 12 panel car with a Branchline
replacement end grafted on. I am going on recall only, and others are
certainly encouraged to correct me. Regards,
Andy Carlson
How about the double door cars ?
To date, C&BT is the only game in town for a 10ft 6 car. Do these follow any
prototype ?

Ian Clasper


Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
 

Ian Clasper wrote

Question is, which of the C&BT kits are worth keeping an eye open for ?
C&BT produced 12 panel, 10'6" box cars. No one else does.

C&BT produced a variety of 40 foot offset double door 10'6"
box cars. Only a "late" version was produced by Front Range.


Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
Sterling, Massachusetts


Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...>
 

Ian,

C&BT produced some 12-panel boxcars with various door widths and end types. Their 6' door car with 4/4
ends can match certain ATSF and D&RGW classes (with some tinkering). AFAIK, the 7' and 8' door widths,
and those with R-3/4 ends, have no prototypes.

That said, the D&LW had several groups of 12-panel 8' door cars, though with diagonal panel roofs, and
some with "banana taper" ends. I am planning on sectioning some of my cars to build one or two of these.

They also offered a 14' door boxcar with with Murphy roof and 4/4 ends. There were quite a few prototypes
for these.

C&BT also produced many of their cars with diagonal panel roofs, some of which have possibilities. They
are very rare. The only one of these I have ever found was a double-door car with R-3/4 ends, an almost
impossible combination of features to match to a prototype (GN 1956 homebuilt maybe). I'm going to slice
and dice it someday. I know they did a 7' door car with a diagonal panel roof, as Martin Loftin used it
for one of this X-29 rebuild kits, but I have yet to find one.

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff

ian clasper wrote:


Hi Guys

C&BT produced many of the permutations of the post war boxcar, however as we
all know, many of their kits have been outclassed by Branchline, Red Caboose
and Intermountain, but not all.

Question is, which of the C&BT kits are worth keeping an eye open for ?

Ian Clasper


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Richard Hendrickson
 

Andy Carlson writes, on this subject:

....the only
keepers are the 12 panel 10'6" 40' boxcars, and then, only the 6' and 8'
door, diagonal panel roof versions. I don't know of any prototype 7'
door car, and SF, D&RGW, and GN cars seemed to be built late enough to
have utilized only the diag. roofs.... I am going on recall only, and
others >are certainly encouraged to correct me.
Okay, I will. The Santa Fe's Bx-48, Bx-50, and Bx-51 classes (a total of
2,500 cars) were all 12 panel AAR cars with rectangular panel roofs.
Diagonal panel roofs first appeared on the Bx-53 class in 1949. Though the
models have obvious shortcomings, C&BT kits for 12 panel cars with
rectangular panel roofs are the only way to accurately model the Bx-48
through Bx-50 classes.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


ian clasper <ian@...>
 

Anyone know of a source for these kits without the horrible molded on
details? Ebay although useful, is not the best place as the vendors of these
cars do not give the detail that we want and some folks photos are not
detailed enough. There are not a huge number of train shows here in the PNW,
and I have already missed one of the larger ones (Monro).

Ian Clasper

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim O'Connor" <timoconnor@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Sunday, June 23, 2002 5:47 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] C&BT boxcar kits


Ian Clasper wrote

Question is, which of the C&BT kits are worth keeping an eye open for ?
C&BT produced 12 panel, 10'6" box cars. No one else does.

C&BT produced a variety of 40 foot offset double door 10'6"
box cars. Only a "late" version was produced by Front Range.


Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
Sterling, Massachusetts



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Don Udets
 

Garth Groff wrote: "C&BT produced some 12-panel boxcars with various door
widths and end types. Their 6' door car with 4/4 ends can match certain ATSF
and D&RGW classes (with some tinkering). AFAIK, the 7' and 8' door widths,
and those with R-3/4 ends, have no prototypes ... the D&LW had several
groups of 12-panel 8' door cars, though with diagonal panel roofs, and some
with "banana taper" ends."

Can you give a bit more info on the D&LW cars? I have 2 C&BT Shops riveted
12-panel/rect. panel roof/8' door undec kits with "rolling pin" ends, 4-4
and 4-3-1. Removing/replacing the roof or ends wouldn't be too difficult.

I also have a C&BT Shops 12-panel/rect. panel roof/rolling pin 4-4 end/6'
door kit lettered D&RGW #60026 in the white Cookie Box scheme, reweigh date
6-54. Collector's Edition with snubber/coupler/wheel data end lettering.
Labeled "Return to Denver Colo. when empty".

I have always wondered how accurate it is. How far would these Rio Grande
insulated Cookie Box (bakery goods) cars have wandered? I model the east
coast, which would probably be a stretch. Could be stripped and used for
the Santa Fe Bx-48, Bx-50 or Bx-51s.

These are decent shells--just pitch all the detail parts and replace with DA
ladders and grabs, Tichy or similar brakeset, Kadee roofwalk etc. etc.

Thanks,

Paul


Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...>
 

Paul,

Can you give a bit more info on the D&LW cars? I have 2 C&BT Shops riveted
12-panel/rect. panel roof/8' door undec kits with "rolling pin" ends, 4-4
and 4-3-1. Removing/replacing the roof or ends wouldn't be too difficult.
I don't have any resource material here at work, so I will have to get back to you on this, but
the D&LW had several classes of post-war boxcars with 12-panel sides and 8' doors. The old Front Range
welded side car with R-3/4 late improved Dreadnaught ends is pretty much correct as-is. There were also
several riveted classes with other ends and roofs. I will dig out out some numbers and characteristics
tonight.

I don't know about mixing replacement ends or roofs. The C&BT Shops cars were considerably narrower than
McKean, Intermountain or Branchline kits. End castings from any of these manufacturers will not fit well.
You might try just saving the sides, and using new ends, roof and floor (that's what I plan to do).

I also have a C&BT Shops 12-panel/rect. panel roof/rolling pin 4-4 end/6'
door kit lettered D&RGW #60026 in the white Cookie Box scheme, reweigh date
6-54. Collector's Edition with snubber/coupler/wheel data end lettering.
Labeled "Return to Denver Colo. when empty".
AFAIK, all the D&RGW 12-panel cars had solid side sills. In addition, the "Cookie Box" cars had small end
doors, similar to lumber doors. AFAIK, the were used only to haul Keebler cookies between Denver and Salt
Lake City, and there were only about 40. Because they were specially equipped with heavy insulation for
this service, they (probably) never went off line. Similar cars without the end doors were painted in the
standard freight car red, flying Rio Grande scheme, and saw service nationwide. Most, if not all, had
Duryea cushion underframes. The D&RGW cars used a variety of ends over the years, including 4/5 early
Dreadnaught and later 4/4 improved Dreadnaught. The C&BT shops car is with 4/4 ends is a good start on at
least some of the D&RGW cars. By the way, a few of these cars are still in D&RGW/UP maintenance service.
One of the Cookie Boxes was at Glenwood Springs in April of this year, with the original lettering
showing through the MW paint.

I have always wondered how accurate it is. How far would these Rio Grande
insulated Cookie Box (bakery goods) cars have wandered? I model the east
coast, which would probably be a stretch. Could be stripped and used for
the Santa Fe Bx-48, Bx-50 or Bx-51s.
Yes, you would be better off to do it as a Santa Fe car, or do a new sill from styrene strip and paint it
boxcar red with white D&RGW lettering.

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff


scott459 <scott459@...>
 

I heard Dick S. of C&BT say (maybe it was 3-4 years ago) that he could still sell people kits without the horrible molded on details [OK, he didn't say it that way!]
Direct, that is.
Scott Pitzer

----- Original Message -----
From: ian clasper
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Monday, June 24, 2002 11:19 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] C&BT boxcar kits


Anyone know of a source for these kits without the horrible molded on
details?


Jeff Aley - GCD PE <jaley@...>
 

On Jun 25, 9:02am, scott459 wrote:
Subject: Re: [STMFC] C&BT boxcar kits
I heard Dick S. of C&BT say (maybe it was 3-4 years ago) that he could
still sell people kits without the horrible molded on details [OK, he
didn't say it that way!]
Direct, that is.
Scott Pitzer

Scott & Ian,

Dick Schweiger told me the same thing. The business card he gave
me at the time (probably during the NMRA convention in Kansas City) showed
the following info:

C&BT Shops
P.O. Box 647
Ingomar, PA 15127-0647
Voice / Fax 412-366-3870
e-mail richmarset@...

I have noted on the card that you "must say 'old style'" when you order.

Regards,

-Jeff

--
Jeff Aley jaley@...
DPG Chipsets Product Engineering
Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA
(916) 356-3533


Greg Martin
 

Ian and All,

Prior to Dick's surgery I had a conversation regarding the cars without the molded on ladders and he told me he had "some" still in stock and would like to sell them. I mentioned it in my Scuttlebutt collumn and who knows, I don't think too many shops jumped on the band wagon to order any. He also mentioned that Rich Orr had taken an inventory of what he had left and he was willing to sell them direct... YIKES that's a bad word... If Rich Orr is on this list perhaps he can let us know the status and how Dick is getting on? I wish him well.

Richard Hendrickson will remember this one, he and some friends had a special run of UP cars done with the "Ghost Herald" on the car... and with a Youngstown Steel pre-war 6-foot door". I still have at least one still stashed away on my shelf yet to model. 3^)

Greg Martin


Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...>
 

Paul and friends,

Here's what I was able to discover about the DL&W 12-panel boxcars (courtesy of Ed Hawkins RMJ articles):

54000-54999, blt. 1-55, 6 panel Superior door, riveted sides;

54500-54999, blt. 3-55, Youngstown door, riveted sides;

55000-55499, blt. 2-57, 6 panel Superior door, riveted sides;

55500-55899, blt. 7-56, Youngstown door, welded sides;

All four classes had diagonal panel roofs, 8' doors and R-3/4 late improved Dreadnaught ends (with the
"banana taper" shape per Front Range kits).

Series 55500-55899 is a dead ringer for one of the old Front Range kits, and would not require any major
modification, though details certainly should be upgraded, especially the brake housing, brake shaft, and
grabs.

Any of the other three series could be built by vivisecting the old C&BT shops kit and combining the
sides with late improved Dreadnaught ends and a diagonal panel roof. This would be a pretty simple
kitbash. Photos of two different cars can be found in the July 1999 RMJ.


Paul was also interested in the D&RGW 12-panel boxcars. I was able to identify the following classes:

68000-68399, blt. 1939, 4/5 Dreadnaught ends, 10' 2" IH, Murphy panel roofs, Duryea cushion underframes,
straight side sills.

694000-69899, blt. 1940(?), 4/5 Dreadnaught ends, 10' 2" IH, Murphy panel roofs, Duryea cushion
underframes, straight side sills. Either of these classes would require a new roof and ends. I forgot to
check to see if these cars had square or rounded corner posts. If square, Detail Associates makes a 4/5
end that could be used. If rounded, the ends from an Intermountain 10'6" boxcar would have to have the
top rib removed. The C&BT sides would have to be cut free of the roof and ends, as the body is narrower
than either of the suggested ends. A Red Caboose roof would be best.

67500-67999, blt. 3-46, 4/4 improved Dreadnaught ends, 6' doors, 10' 2" IH, Murphy panel roofs, Duryea
cushion underframes, straight side sills. This would be the easiest to convert from the old C&BT Shops
kits (except for the underframe). It would mainly involve making new sills from styrene strip.

6000-60076, blt. various dates. These are the "Cookie Box" cars. Most of them were drawn from the 4/5 end
boxcars cited above. Four cars (60037, 60047, 60052 and 60064) were from the 1946 series with 4/4 ends.
The small door was immediately under the end of the running board on the flat part of the end.

Paul, if you are going to undertake the DL&W conversion, I have one extra pair of Front Range ends in my
scrap box which you are welcome to.

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff

pfl wrote:


Garth Groff wrote: "C&BT produced some 12-panel boxcars with various door
widths and end types. Their 6' door car with 4/4 ends can match certain ATSF
and D&RGW classes (with some tinkering). AFAIK, the 7' and 8' door widths,
and those with R-3/4 ends, have no prototypes ... the D&LW had several
groups of 12-panel 8' door cars, though with diagonal panel roofs, and some
with "banana taper" ends."

Can you give a bit more info on the D&LW cars? I have 2 C&BT Shops riveted
12-panel/rect. panel roof/8' door undec kits with "rolling pin" ends, 4-4
and 4-3-1. Removing/replacing the roof or ends wouldn't be too difficult.

I also have a C&BT Shops 12-panel/rect. panel roof/rolling pin 4-4 end/6'
door kit lettered D&RGW #60026 in the white Cookie Box scheme, reweigh date
6-54. Collector's Edition with snubber/coupler/wheel data end lettering.
Labeled "Return to Denver Colo. when empty".

I have always wondered how accurate it is. How far would these Rio Grande
insulated Cookie Box (bakery goods) cars have wandered? I model the east
coast, which would probably be a stretch. Could be stripped and used for
the Santa Fe Bx-48, Bx-50 or Bx-51s.