List,

Looking at the Branchline web page just now, I'm struck
by the sheer variety of cars with 6', 7' and 8' door
widths. Wanting to "do the right thing" with my hobby
dollars as far as having the right mix of cars leads me
to ask this question:

What door width was more commonly seen on these cars?
Would the 6' doors be more prevalent, or were all three
door widths bought in roughly the same numbers?

Thanks,
Shawn Beckert

Shawn Beckert asked:

What door width was more commonly seen on these cars?
Would the 6' doors be more prevalent, or were all three
door widths bought in roughly the same numbers?

What year? 7' and 8' doors were relatively uncommon until after 1954.
After 1954 the number of cars built with 6' doors dropped quickly, but of
course they stayed in service until the early '80s. And then after 1957 or
so most new boxcars were 50-footers.

Scott Chatfield

Dave, that helps a lot. I'd say I need to obtain a lot
more cars with 6' doors for a railroad of the 1950's!

Thanks,

Shawn

Some Eastern roads, made the move to wider doors with new equipment (or
rebuilds) after the war. Wider doors allowed the use of mechanical loading
equipment (folk lifts etc) and so were popular with railroads with a large
manufacturing base.
I presume the move from 7ft to 8ft was to further improve mechanical access.

The Pennsy introduced a 7ft door with class X37 (ok pre-war, whats this,
Altoona making a progressive step in freight car design ?!?!?! ), and
continued to use this size for its post war rebuilding programs. X26(USRA
SS) and X29 rebuilds received new bodies with 7ft doors. X43 / X43a / X43b
also had 7ft doors however X43c featured a 8ft door. The next batch of X29
rebuilds, X29d received 8ft doors.

Reading's post war boxcars all received 8ft doors.

CNJ had several groups of 7ft door cars (lettered CRP).

SP had several large classes of 7ft door cars, I do not remember the class.

Ian Clasper

shawn.beckert@... writes:

What door width was more commonly seen on these cars? Would the 6' doors be more prevalent, or were all three door widths bought in roughly the same numbers?

Thanks,
Shawn Beckert

Shawn,

What year are you modeling? After WW2 the Pennys began rebuilding cars (X26 and X29 programs) with 7-foot doors leaving the 6-foot door behind. This is likely due to the extensive use of forklift trucks in the post WW2 economy. Their next purchase was the X43-a-b (three classes) cars around 1950 and they were delivered with 7-foot doors until the X43c/X29d programs and the introduction of the 8-foot door. The P&WV acquired both Pullman Standard cars in 1947 with 7-foot doors and ACF cars with 8-foot car in 1948. I believe the Q skipped right past the 7-foot door to 8-foot cars by the early 50's. By in large the move towards larger car door openings and larger cars (50-foot cars) was a movement driven by the receivers by the early 50's.

Greg Martin
Salem, OR

Guys,

In regards to this subject, a lot of you seem to
be focusing on era (pre-1945 vs post-1945) in order
to determine the prevailing door width at the time.

I would submit that it's as much a question of the
"where" as well as the "when". Dave Nelson indicated
that as of 1950 the number of cars with 6' doors still
overshadowed the rest of the boxcars on U.S. rails. I
model an era that stretches from the twilight of steam
into that period of which we must not speak here. I also
model a railroad (the Cotton Belt) that was a "bridge"
line from East to West and thus saw a lot of everything
that was still in the equipment registers of that time.

Bear in mind that the Cotton Belt carried everything from
the industrial east through the St. Louis "gateway" out to
the southwestern states and beyond to the west coast. It
also had to serve a region that was largely agricultural
in nature (Missouri, Arkansas, Texas & Louisiana). Lots
of rice, lots of cotton, and other field crops.

I'm going to gamble and say that I need a very large number
of house cars with 6' doors to handle the aggie stuff, while
moving in "bridge traffic" cars with wider doors carrying auto
parts and other industrial-type commodities.

I will solicit your views on this now, but I pretty much think
I've hit on the right approach for my needs. Any thoughts?

Shawn Beckert

In a message dated 6/25/02 6:17:38 AM Pacific Daylight Time, branch@...
writes:

<< 10,576 (~7%) of these were 7' door cars sold to 14 railroads between 1946
and 1956. >>

Of Interest:

The AAR actually dropped the 7-ft. door width for both 40' and 50' box car
designs from the "Standard" list of door openings in 1949. The reasoning
was; "In the interest of standardization by eliminating one of the widths it
is the understanding that very few railroads have used the 7-ft. door opening
up to this time and any road that has used same can very easily use the 8-ft.
door in the future.

Of course, as with all the AAR "Standards" this was not a mandated rule that
would have prevented any road (so choosing) to still use the 7-ft. width.

Regards,

Guy Wilber
Sparks, Nevada

Shawn,

It's not quite so simple. Door width depends a lot on the road you model, the traffic it carried, its
interchange partners, and the era.

Dave's study of the 1950 ORER is very enlightening in a general way, but it only reflects a single point
in time. Cars with 8' doors probably made up the majority of new 40' deliveries by 1954 or so.

Cars with 6' doors fell out of favor in the early 1950s, probably due to increased use of forklifts for
palletized loading. Of course, some cars with 6' doors were still being built right up to the end of our
era of interest.

Some roads were big on certain door sizes, and if your line has heavy interchange or overhead traffic
from those lines, you will need to reflect this. The WP and NKP, for example, were late 1940s converts to
7' doors, though both also had many cars with 6' (and with the WP, some 8' doors). The Southern was very
keen on 8' doors beginning around 1950.

Don't forget that there were also a few oddities during our era, like CG 1 1/2 door cars and a few cars
with 9' doors (C&O, 1957).

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff


"Beckert, Shawn" wrote:

A few musings on this subject while I finish my morning coffee...

I did some rough (very) compilations based on roster data provided by Ed Hawkins for our research (some of which is available on Ted's site I believe) and came up with the following data. these numbers are rough and include 10 and 12 panel cars as well as riveted and welded construction, but since door size is the issue here I didn't break it down any further

There were 148,199 (!) total 40' boxcars built between 1945 and 1960.

108,736 (~73%) of these were 6' door cars sold to 48 railroads between 1945 and 1958.

10,576 (~7%) of these were 7' door cars sold to 14 railroads between 1946 and 1956.

26,822 (~18%) of these were 8' door cars sold to 33 railroads between 1946 and 1960.

2,065 (less than 2%) of these were 9' door cars sold to 6 railroads between 1956 and 1961.

Other observations:

All three common door openings (the 9' was an oddity) were INTRODUCED at roughly the same time (1945-46), but as a rule, the 6' door cars are built earlier, 8' door cars later.

Only the Erie owned (new) cars with all three door openings.

A few roads (ATSF, CB&Q and NYC for example) stuck with all one size door (6' in this case). Most had 6' and then 8' door cars later, except of course the PRR that had 7' and then 8'. Some roads (Southern as early as 1947) went with ONLY 8' door cars (why???).

So, what does this mean as a modeler? Let's say you need 25 of these cars total for your fleet - we all need more than that, right :>) , you model a time period after about 1955 and are basing your fleet on the national average then you will need 18 x 6' door cars, 2 x 7' door cars, and 5 x 8' door cars. Of course, if you model the Southern you will need a couple more 8' door cars, the PRR guys will need more 7' and 8' door cars.

Hope somebody finds this useful. Guess I'd better get back to making more of these things!

Bill Schneider

The Wabash first built 40' box cars with 8 ft doors in 1951. They
were numbered 6000-6299. The next year the railroad built the last
40' cars with 6 ft doors numbered 7000-7299. All new 40 ft box cars
built or purchased after 1952 had 8 ft doors with the exception of
the 91000-91514
series which were built in 1961 with 9 ft doors.

Chet French
Dixon, IL

Guy Wilber wrote

The AAR actually dropped the 7-ft. door width for both 40' and 50' box car
designs from the "Standard" list of door openings in 1949.

It figures. And almost immediately the SP, T&NO, and Cotton Belt began
buying box cars with 7 ft doors: over 10,000 of them during the decade.


Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
Sterling, Massachusetts

Bill,

A small exception to your statement:

Only the Erie owned (new) cars with all three door openings.

The WP had 1945 Mt. Vernon-built 40' boxcars with 6' doors. In 1947 they riveted bought 7' door cars from
Pullman (your excellent new kit, thank you.). These were followed in 1951 by more Pullman cars, this time
7' door PS-1s. In 1952 and 1953, WP bought small lots of PS-1s with 6' and 8' doors. Finally they bought
two two-car lots of 40' cars around 1960-1961 from both PS and AC&F. IIRC, these had odd sized doors, but
I would have to check to be sure. Thus the WP meets the criteria of all three types, though most of their
post-war 40' fleet had 7' doors.

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff

Railroads with lots of grain traffic continued to buy
box cars with 6 foot doors. Rock Island bought some new
ACF 40 foot cars with 6 foot doors in 1959 (26500-26899).
Rock also continued to buy 40 foot cars with wider doors
into the mid 1960's.

Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
Sterling, Massachusetts

I defer to your information in this case - I probably should have finished that coffee first before I made blanket statements! However, I did not include in any of my data PS1 or other varieties of 40' boxcar - just postwar AAR designs - and I should have made that clearer. Now, about those 6' door WP cars... what roof/ends/doors and do you have pretty pictures? :>)

Bill
The WP had 1945 Mt. Vernon-built 40' boxcars with 6' doors. In 1947 they riveted bought 7' door cars from
Pullman (your excellent new kit, thank you.). These were followed in 1951 by more Pullman cars, this time
7' door PS-1s. In 1952 and 1953, WP bought small lots of PS-1s with 6' and 8' doors. Finally they bought
two two-car lots of 40' cars around 1960-1961 from both PS and AC&F. IIRC, these had odd sized doors, but
I would have to check to be sure. Thus the WP meets the criteria of all three types, though most of their
post-war 40' fleet had 7' doors.

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff

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Bill,

The 1945 Mt. Vernon cars were 20201-20550. They were typical modified 1937 AAR cars with a 10' 6" IH,
panel roofs and 5/5 ends with W corners. The doors were Youngstown. Sunshine once offered a resin kit for
these cars. The Intermountain 10' 6" car is a dead ringer for the WP cars, but you have to letter your
own from their undec.

Curiously, five cars from this series were rebuilt with double doors over a 12' opening in 1955 as
19501-19505. They set up to carry parts to the Ford assembly plant at Milpitas, California. Eventually
they were downgraded to maintenance duty, apparently with the auxiliary doors welded shut.

You can find some very nice color shots of both types in Jim Eager's WESTERN PACIFIC COLOR GUIDE TO
FREIGHT AND PASSENGER EQUIPMENT from Morning Sun. I have no decent pictures of them in my own collection
(I always found them just at sunset or some other problem spoiled my shots). IIRC, at least one example
of each survives in the collection of the Feather River Railway Society in Portola, California.

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff

Bill Schneider wrote:

Bill Schneider wrote

A few musings on this subject while I finish my morning coffee...

I did some rough (very) compilations based on roster data provided by
Ed Hawkins for our research (some of which is available on Ted's site
I believe) and came up with the following data. these numbers are rough
and include 10 and 12 panel cars as well as riveted and welded construction,
but since door size is the issue here I didn't break it down any further

There were 148,199 (!) total 40' boxcars built between 1945 and 1960.

Bill, I think you may have only searched on 10'6" interior height
cars. According to my notes, SP and T&NO purchased 18,850 40' box
cars during this period -- and ALL of them were 10'0" IH.

Also, Pullman Standard built AT LEAST 75,000 PS-1 box cars during
this period. (But that total may include 50 foot PS-1's too.) I only
know this because PS made a big publicity deal out of the 75,000th
car, which was delivered to the Cotton Belt. SSW bought about 2,000
PS-1 box cars in 8 lots.

108,736 (~73%) of these were 6' door cars sold to 48 railroads between 1945 and 1958.
10,576 (~7%) of these were 7' door cars sold to 14 railroads between 1946 and 1956.

Hmmmm.... SP and T&NO bought 9,500 such cars, and Cotton Belt 750.
That's 10,250 of the total?

C&NW and CStPM&O bought 9,765 40' PS-1 box cars, and many thousands more
AAR style box cars from 1940-1960. ( My notes indicate somewhere around
4,000 cars. ) So SP/T&NO/SSW and C&NW/CMO total nearly 35,000 cars out
of your 148,000 ?


Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
Sterling, Massachusetts

Correct O'Tim.... As I mentioned before I searched the files for our 40' AAR postwar car only, no PS1's or 10-0 IH cars unless they slipped in.... The SP cars would not have shown up due to their stunted growth... err, lower height. Somebody else will have to fill in the PS1 and 10-0 IH data....

Bill
Bill, I think you may have only searched on 10'6" interior height
cars. According to my notes, SP and T&NO purchased 18,850 40' box
cars during this period -- and ALL of them were 10'0" IH.

At 01:07 PM 6/25/2002, you wrote:

Correct O'Tim.... As I mentioned before I searched the files for
our 40' AAR postwar car only, no PS1's or 10-0 IH cars unless they
slipped in....

Ok, you're forgiven. But try not to be so sloppy about details
like this in the future...

< running into the basement bomb shelter... >


Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
Sterling, Massachusetts

Well, that was quite a bit of feedback, and very helpful.
All in all, though, I still think I need a hefty number of
cars with 6' doors (Bill, crank up the production line). Tim
O'Connor pointed out the need to acquire a great many more
Kadee PS-1's to properly match Cotton Belt's fleet. Thanks Tim,
there went my budget...

As far as interchange, you figure whoever got into St. Louis
interchanged with the Cotton Belt, and that was almost all
the big guns of the East. IIRC there were at least 12 roads
that had yards there, maybe more. Pennsy, NYC, Wabash, IT, MP,
B&O, C&EI, IC, can't remember the others. The Cotton Belt's
Valley Yard across the river in East St. Louis was right next
to Illinois Central's huge facility; I'm sure they did more
than just wave at each other. Elsewhere there was KCS, Rock
Island, Southern - Gee, I could run just about anything from
the 1950's and get away with it. Still need more cars with
6' doors though...

Shawn Beckert