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NMRA
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asychis@...
As long as we are being allowed to discuss the NMRA, I thought I'd jump in.
Although I am an NMRA member, perhaps vainly hoping that the organization will turn around, I also strongly believe that it does not serve the needs of the prototype modeling community. For the experienced prototype modeler, the NMRA has little to offer, and in some ways is antagonistic to prototype fidelity. I believe this stems from a desire to be a "big tent" organization, but an inability to become such. The membership is quite diverse, but the organization does not try to accommodate model railroading in all its facets. That includes "vesties", politicians, round and rounders, toy train collectors, garden railroaders, social butterflies and so on. We are but a part of the organization, and maybe a small part at that. I do not know of any figures that indicate if prototype modelers outnumber "vesties" in the NMRA. The NMRA has been slow to change. Too slow. It did not, and still does not really grasp the power of the internet (a problem not only with hobbies but business at large). For example, why aren't we conversing on an NMRA listserv rather than via Yahoo Groups? Seems to me that the NMRA could just as easily set up listservers that addressed all aspects of the hobby, and kept us all "at home" rather than seeking out different means of discussing what is important to us. I also think it lacked the vision to see that the splintering of the hobby into much smaller interest groups was really what the organization should have been about. Rather than promote outmoded, primarily social aspects of the hobby, it should have promoted diversification so that everyone could find their niche. I see no problem with a listserv dedicated to "vesties" being able to discuss where they can find a patch for the 1966 Lone Star Region meet as long as they do not mind another list where my interest in wheel reports and engineer's logs from the MoPac's Southern Illinois coal fields can be entertained. Can the NMRA repackage itself? Perhaps. There is always hope that a new generation of officers can provide the leadership needed to make the changes. What I think is needed is a bold step, a radical proposal to the membership of a new NMRA. What that proposal should consist of is beyond me at the present time. However, I think serious consideration needs to be given to eliminating age-old concepts. 1. Do people belong to the NMRA for social reasons? Travel and communication are much different today than they were in the 1950s. You can communicate instantly (even phone communication was difficult and expensive in the 1950s), and flying across country, although not the pleasure it once was, is cheap by 1950s terms. Perhaps the social aspects have given away to information exchange (we are in the Information Age after all). Not that model railroaders are antisocial, but just not interested in the NMRA as a focus for their social activities. Social activities are falling by the wayside for two reasons; political correctness and social attitudes. Take the typical "banquet" at an NMRA regional meeting. The food served is in question because certain people only eat certain kinds of food, no fat foods, no meat, no sugar, etc. You can end up sitting next to some poorly dressed, unwashed, foul-mouthed fool because you cannot in this day and age set a standard for dress and decorum. You can't drink an adult beverage, you MUST not smoke, and no accommodations will be made for you if you do not accept the current "exciting as wall paste" version of a "good time". 2. Do people want their modeling judged, or has the social fabric changed to the point where mutual approval and approbation by a peer group is sufficient? Perhaps ribbons and plaques are passé, and there is not the need for a success ladder (i.e. the MMR course). 3. Should the NMRA make an effort to reduce politics to an absolute minimum? I have belonged to a number of organizations, and per capita, I do not believe I have run into as many "little tin gods" as I have in the NMRA. It can be very disheartening! 4. Recognition of new standards that need to be set rather than resting on past accomplishments would also be refreshing. The NMRA needs to be the hobby's think tank and needs to be proactive not reactive or unresponsive. Disagreeing to an extent with a previous post, I think the NMRA has done a good job with the DCC standards. Regardless of whether the basis was supplied to them or not, and whether they can keep all the manufacturers in line, they did what they were supposed to do, supply standards and recommended practices. They are not police, and cannot enforce standards, but they can assure their members that NMRA-approved DCC products conform to the standards. The fact that a some manufacturers do not care to be NMRA-approved is sad, but is not really the argument. I think the organization is doing a good job with the Kalmbach library. I seek out information on the net as much as the next fellow, but I think this repository is and will continue to be a benefit. If used, in and of itself, this resource can be worth the total NMRA dues. There are aspects that need to be enhanced, and a much stronger push toward providing materials electronically, such as PDF files of kit instructions, or on-line copies of old magazines is necessary. Jerry Michels |
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asychis@...
In a message dated 01/17/2003 11:28:21 AM Central Standard Time,
muskoka@... writes: W/o going into the particulars there was aThis isn't too good of an explanation, please, go into the particulars. We need the "information" to judge for ourselves. JErry Michels |
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Eugene Deimling <endeimling@...>
This is one of my favorite subjects.
You guys should't be so harsh on a bunch of old men playing train engineer and wearing strange clothing. It is there hobby. Too bad that they can't go off and play their games and not mess with people who enjoy doing scale models of actual freight cars and such. My last involvement with the NMRA is when a contest "official" refused to let me enter one of my scratchbuilt O scale car in a contest. His reason was simple: The car was equipped with Proto48 (1/4"AAR in those days) wheels that didn't conform to the NMRA standards. The gauge was too narrow as were the wheels. I guess they must have adopted the Russian 5' gauge with extra wide wheels as their prototype. The moral of the story is the organization does not encourage innovation or change they don't want to deal with it. While else would the HO standard RP-25 be still the standard after 50 years or so. It took several years of arm twisting to recognize wheel contours other than NMRA. They lack the ability to enforce their standards. They served a purpose once upon a time. They never evolved to meet the needs. They have been a social organization for retired folks who once played with trains in their basement. Dr. Hendrickson points out a real trends in the hobby. Speciality groups are having their own meets and publications (including electronic media). They don't need the NMRA. I am curious as to what the financial crisis was at the "National" Gene Deimling Visit http://www.proto48.org Learn more about Proto48 modeling |
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Charlie Vlk <cvlk@...>
The NMRA never was in the "Enforcement" business....
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The thing that made the NMRA work in the first place (and the thing that the "Foamers" in their vests drove out) was a cooperative relationship with the manufacturers. A dirty little secret is that the creation of interchange standards made the Model Railroad Industry possible. Without it we would have the situation they have in Europe, where one company (Marklin) dominates the market and forces its standards on the industry. Manufacturers have backed off from the NMRA for a long time because of its lack of movement. The last Standards Chair I talked to was anxious to establish a "Prototype Gestapo", requiring manufacturers to reveal exact dates of prototypes, application information, etc.. in order to achieve NMRA Certification..... which caused us to run, not walk, for the exits. Strange thing is, we DO need the NMRA. Kalmbach is trying to step into the vacuum with their "World's Greatest Hobby" campaign and should be commended for it. To have the NMRA sign up for the program a year into its existence is an embarrassment in so many different ways. Charlie ----- Original Message -----
From: Eugene Deimling To: Yahoo Freight Car Group Sent: Friday, January 17, 2003 10:00 AM Subject: [STMFC] NMRA This is one of my favorite subjects. You guys should't be so harsh on a bunch of old men playing train engineer and wearing strange clothing. It is there hobby. Too bad that they can't go off and play their games and not mess with people who enjoy doing scale models of actual freight cars and such. My last involvement with the NMRA is when a contest "official" refused to let me enter one of my scratchbuilt O scale car in a contest. His reason was simple: The car was equipped with Proto48 (1/4"AAR in those days) wheels that didn't conform to the NMRA standards. The gauge was too narrow as were the wheels. I guess they must have adopted the Russian 5' gauge with extra wide wheels as their prototype. The moral of the story is the organization does not encourage innovation or change they don't want to deal with it. While else would the HO standard RP-25 be still the standard after 50 years or so. It took several years of arm twisting to recognize wheel contours other than NMRA. They lack the ability to enforce their standards. They served a purpose once upon a time. They never evolved to meet the needs. They have been a social organization for retired folks who once played with trains in their basement. Dr. Hendrickson points out a real trends in the hobby. Speciality groups are having their own meets and publications (including electronic media). They don't need the NMRA. I am curious as to what the financial crisis was at the "National" Gene Deimling Visit http://www.proto48.org Learn more about Proto48 modeling Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: STMFC-unsubscribe@... Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. |
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Des Norman
Hi All,
Thought I would chip in with my 2 cents worth from this side of the Atlantic. I got into American modelling about 5 years ago after 15 years modelling British pre-WW2 in O Scale. In both that and my current HO modelling I have tried to model and operate prototypically. My models may not be top-class ones yet, but at least I know where I want to be. Joined the NMRA British Region (BR), and for the past 2 years have been Division Rep for Scotland. There had been an absentee Rep for some time and the Division was stagnating. Got an annual small 1-day meet going and have gradually recruited new members. However, this has become more difficult over the past year with the big increase in National dues. These now total GBP43 (ie about $65), BUT of this only GBP11 stays with the BR, and it's become very difficult to justify to existing and prospective members why GBP32 ($48) should just disappear in return for a Bulletin of debatable usefulness. It's all very well telling people it costs under $1.50 a week, but that doesn't help when you ask them for a cheque. This issue in particular is causing much dissent within the BR, and it would not surprise me if it results in a big "bust-up" before long. Have also been interested to read some of the comments about some of the membership State-side. Last year I took a small layout to a very popular and enjoyable Division meet in England. It too had its fair share of vesties, and the obvious clique of current and former officers. (In fact many members refuse to go to the Region AGM / Convention for this reason.) It had some superb layouts, but also a sprinkling of layouts which I would be embarrassed to call my own. My points? I have worked to bring together members and other kindred spirits to discuss, learn-about and enjoy American railroad modelling, but feel hampered by the BR clique and by the remote dinosaur National organisation. Don't suppose airing our views will achieve anything, but at least we can get them off our collective chests. Regards, Des Norman Perth, Scotland Quote for Mike, and to avoid being too serious; "He's fallen in the water!" said in squeaky voice. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Everything you'll ever need on one web page from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk.my.yahoo.com |
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Dave Nelson <muskoka@...>
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-----Original Message----- I am curious as to what the financial crisis was at the "National"At each convention the local guys are responsible for some things and the national people for others. W/o going into the particulars there was a recent national convention when the local guys did their part just fine and the national people screwed the pooch with dire financial consequences. A **major** FU. Judging by further details in what the NMRA President has written in explanation of the problems there were other poorly handled activities/programs which, on examination, were also were financial loosers. And from what I understand the several issues could be jointly attributed to incompetence/negligent oversight. As the org itself is not, shall we say, the Ford Foundation, the failures became very serious issues threatening the financial stability of the organization. To put it back into the black they made some changes, cut some stuff, raised dues substantially, and in the backlash lost about 20% of the membership. IMO the current leadership did the right thing under the circumstances. How they move forward from here is another story. Dave Nelson |
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Don Winter <guaruba@...>
From the posts I could change NMRA to AFA and MBSI and the surrounding prose
would still reflect accurately. My point is that you are fighting human nature which is pretty much the same as fighting all of Newton's laws. Don Winter |
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Ron Hildebrand <SteamFreight@...>
At 08:00 AM 1/17/2003 -0800, you wrote:
My last involvement with the NMRA is when a contest "official" refused toHi Gene--it's been a long time! The story of the NMRA contest official excluding your model because it didn't conform to a flaw built into the system shows just how absurd things can get when an organization gets bogged down with antiquated rules. I think NMRA would be a lot more contemporary in its thinking and a lot more flexible if it were organized a bit differently. Perhaps it could be a umbrella organization made up of a number of SIGs. Instead of joining the NMRA itself, members would join one or more SIGs reflecting their interests, with a portion of dues remaining with a SIG, and a portion going to the umbrella organization. An individual who feels the need to join more than one SIG would pay additional dues for each additional SIG joined. SIGs would then each have an official voice for that particular facet of the hobby, and would be able to develop necessary standards for their areas of interest, which would be an ongoing, sanctioned activity of each SIG, to be forwarded to the NMRA for adoption, either as a standard for that SIG only, or for enveloping into an overall NMRA standard applicable to the entire hobby. (An example would be Proto standards that would apply to a particular Proto SIG, or DCC standards that would apply universally across the hobby.) Then, instead of an outside group having to expend energy just trying to get NMRA' s acknowledgement that a particular group's interests even deserved its attention, NMRA would be acting upon and coordinating these standards as they came up from the various SIGs as a matter of course. Just dividing the hobby into segments that each would have its own standards would take away a lot of the arbitrary decision making that now occurs as regards to special interests, because special interests would be the norm, not the exception. Of course, it may take ten to twenty years just getting the current administration to agree on what constitutes a SIG and which SIGs get recognized, but after that, it'll be smooth sailing! <g> Ron Hildebrand |
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Dave Nelson <muskoka@...>
In a message dated 01/17/2003 11:28:21 AM Central Standard Time, I can but I won't; the comments above are sufficient. Dave Nelson |
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Charlie Vlk <cvlk@...>
Jerry-
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I agree with everything you have said... and my point about the NMRA and DCC Standards is that the DCC Committee is mostly DCC manufacturers or their husbands.... I wasn't part of it but the impression I get is that the credit is about 95% manufacturers, 5% NMRA..... and I am not sure if the NMRA involvement streamlined or hastened the project or was an anchor. Charlie ----- Original Message -----
From: asychis@... To: STMFC@... Sent: Friday, January 17, 2003 11:28 AM Subject: Re: [STMFC] NMRA As long as we are being allowed to discuss the NMRA, I thought I'd jump in. Although I am an NMRA member, perhaps vainly hoping that the organization will turn around, I also strongly believe that it does not serve the needs of the prototype modeling community. For the experienced prototype modeler, the NMRA has little to offer, and in some ways is antagonistic to prototype fidelity. I believe this stems from a desire to be a "big tent" organization, but an inability to become such. The membership is quite diverse, but the organization does not try to accommodate model railroading in all its facets. That includes "vesties", politicians, round and rounders, toy train collectors, garden railroaders, social butterflies and so on. We are but a part of the organization, and maybe a small part at that. I do not know of any figures that indicate if prototype modelers outnumber "vesties" in the NMRA. The NMRA has been slow to change. Too slow. It did not, and still does not really grasp the power of the internet (a problem not only with hobbies but business at large). For example, why aren't we conversing on an NMRA listserv rather than via Yahoo Groups? Seems to me that the NMRA could just as easily set up listservers that addressed all aspects of the hobby, and kept us all "at home" rather than seeking out different means of discussing what is important to us. I also think it lacked the vision to see that the splintering of the hobby into much smaller interest groups was really what the organization should have been about. Rather than promote outmoded, primarily social aspects of the hobby, it should have promoted diversification so that everyone could find their niche. I see no problem with a listserv dedicated to "vesties" being able to discuss where they can find a patch for the 1966 Lone Star Region meet as long as they do not mind another list where my interest in wheel reports and engineer's logs from the MoPac's Southern Illinois coal fields can be entertained. Can the NMRA repackage itself? Perhaps. There is always hope that a new generation of officers can provide the leadership needed to make the changes. What I think is needed is a bold step, a radical proposal to the membership of a new NMRA. What that proposal should consist of is beyond me at the present time. However, I think serious consideration needs to be given to eliminating age-old concepts. 1. Do people belong to the NMRA for social reasons? Travel and communication are much different today than they were in the 1950s. You can communicate instantly (even phone communication was difficult and expensive in the 1950s), and flying across country, although not the pleasure it once was, is cheap by 1950s terms. Perhaps the social aspects have given away to information exchange (we are in the Information Age after all). Not that model railroaders are antisocial, but just not interested in the NMRA as a focus for their social activities. Social activities are falling by the wayside for two reasons; political correctness and social attitudes. Take the typical "banquet" at an NMRA regional meeting. The food served is in question because certain people only eat certain kinds of food, no fat foods, no meat, no sugar, etc. You can end up sitting next to some poorly dressed, unwashed, foul-mouthed fool because you cannot in this day and age set a standard for dress and decorum. You can't drink an adult beverage, you MUST not smoke, and no accommodations will be made for you if you do not accept the current "exciting as wall paste" version of a "good time". 2. Do people want their modeling judged, or has the social fabric changed to the point where mutual approval and approbation by a peer group is sufficient? Perhaps ribbons and plaques are passé, and there is not the need for a success ladder (i.e. the MMR course). 3. Should the NMRA make an effort to reduce politics to an absolute minimum? I have belonged to a number of organizations, and per capita, I do not believe I have run into as many "little tin gods" as I have in the NMRA. It can be very disheartening! 4. Recognition of new standards that need to be set rather than resting on past accomplishments would also be refreshing. The NMRA needs to be the hobby's think tank and needs to be proactive not reactive or unresponsive. Disagreeing to an extent with a previous post, I think the NMRA has done a good job with the DCC standards. Regardless of whether the basis was supplied to them or not, and whether they can keep all the manufacturers in line, they did what they were supposed to do, supply standards and recommended practices. They are not police, and cannot enforce standards, but they can assure their members that NMRA-approved DCC products conform to the standards. The fact that a some manufacturers do not care to be NMRA-approved is sad, but is not really the argument. I think the organization is doing a good job with the Kalmbach library. I seek out information on the net as much as the next fellow, but I think this repository is and will continue to be a benefit. If used, in and of itself, this resource can be worth the total NMRA dues. There are aspects that need to be enhanced, and a much stronger push toward providing materials electronically, such as PDF files of kit instructions, or on-line copies of old magazines is necessary. Jerry Michels [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: STMFC-unsubscribe@... Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
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Schuyler G Larrabee <SGL2@...>
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Charlie Vlk" <cvlk@...> The last Standards Chair I talked to was anxious to establish a"Prototype Gestapo", requiring manufacturers to reveal exact dates of prototypes, application information, etc.. in order to achieve NMRA Certification..... which caused us to run, not walk, for the exits. Forced to provide the information that damned well ought to be on the box to begin with?!?! How radical! It's not like this would force more work on the manufacturer, they had to find this out to begin with. An informed consumer is a happy consumer. SGL |
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Charlie Vlk <cvlk@...>
The bottom line is that the NMRA should attend to the issues that impact the basic interchange of equpment..... like getting the RPs into Standards and updating the couplers standards to the present millenium, not the post WWII manufacturers that have gone to their just reward over a half century ago!
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The NMRA was talking about regulating market issues, not important standards. No manufacturer is going to put control of their sales in the hands of the NMRA but will gladly support establishment of the standards which eliminate the need for each company to guess at what will make their equipment work with that of other manufurers. Charlie ----- Original Message -----
From: Schuyler G Larrabee To: STMFC@... Sent: Friday, January 17, 2003 9:47 PM Subject: Re: [STMFC] NMRA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charlie Vlk" <cvlk@...> > The last Standards Chair I talked to was anxious to establish a "Prototype Gestapo", requiring manufacturers to reveal exact dates of prototypes, application information, etc.. in order to achieve NMRA Certification..... which caused us to run, not walk, for the exits. Forced to provide the information that damned well ought to be on the box to begin with?!?! How radical! It's not like this would force more work on the manufacturer, they had to find this out to begin with. An informed consumer is a happy consumer. SGL Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: STMFC-unsubscribe@... Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. |
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