-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Nelson [mailto:muskoka@...]
Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2003 1:19 AM
To: STMFC
Subject: [STMFC] Poll: What OOP Sunshine kit do you really want?


I'm going to Martin's gathering on Sunday and I plan on talking to him to
find out if there is any possibility of his doing another run of Mather
Reefers. Since I'm going to do that for myself I can just as easily print
and hand him whatever anybody else posts. You can also e-mail me
direct if
you'd rather not have your list seen in this forum.

Ground Rules:

1. Has to be discontinued (see SUN.TXT in files section) so just cut and
past and add the qty you want.
2. Not a comittment to buy or sell (I'm not representing Martin
and FWIW I'm
not asking because I have stuff to sell).
4. Naturally no assurances he'll even glance at them much less do anything
but one can hope.

I want:

9.2 Wabash rebuild 3/7/8 ends prewar doors
DISCONTINUED Qty 1
9.6 ATSF Bx36 40ton full width ends late map decals
DISCONTINUED Qty 1
15.1 Mather 42ft reefer w/ 3/3E Morrell decals 47-60's
DISCONTINUED Qty 2
15.8 Mather 42ft reefer w/ composite ends Morrell decals 42-60's
DISCONTINUED Qty 1
15.9 Mather 42ft reefer w/ composite ends Rath decals 42-60's
DISCONTINUED Qty 1
23.1 SP B-50-12A steel rebuild
DISCONTINUED Qty 1

Dave Nelson


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"Jim or Lisa Hayes" <jim-and-lisa@a...> wrote:

Like a lot of us, I wish that NO Sunshine kits were EVER

discontinued, but I

realize that that's not really practical.

It's a sore point with Martin, but the rights to his early kits
reverted to F&C because sales didn't continue at some agreed-upon
level. That would be the kits from Martin's Salinas, CA period, when
F&C did the casting in Alumilite. F&C now has some of those cars in
their catalog.

Martin's experience is that 90% of all the kits he'll sell go in the
first rush, after which the orders slowly dribble in. Casting isn't
the issue - you can always pull out the mold and pour another set
most any time you want. But all the rest of the parts that go into a
kit don't lend themselves to one-at-a-time, on-demand production. We
can't expect Martin (or any of the specialized kit manufacturers) to
keep capital tied up in custom decals, instruction sheets and etched
parts on the off-chance they might sell one or two a month.

It'll be interesting to see if he has any of the X-3's left after
Pleasanton. He took 100 of each of the two kits to CA, and told me he
had never sold that many of any kit on his CA loop. When we packed up
last Sunday at Monrovia, by my count he had 83 left. Total. (33 from
unsold stock, plus 25 of each held in reserve for this weekend.) I
don't think he sells as well at WinterRail (today in Stockton) as he
does at the Perris OERM show (last Saturday), so it may come out
even. Fear not, he left 50 of each in Springfield to fill advance
orders.

Tom M., back in Boulder after having driven in from Evanston, WY
today, and suggesting that if Mike wants to bring the full Wyoming
experience to his household, he needs to start wearing his hat
indoors. Especially at mealtimes.

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At 04:51 AM 3/9/2003 -0500, you wrote:

When Martin
originally had them do his casting for him at that time, they were
supposed to return the original masters and molds to him, but they did
not do that and kept the originals. He told me that he would have had
to sue them to get them to turn the stuff over, but the cost and
distance was too great to pursue a court suit.

Tom,

I don't know how long ago this took place, and I'm not really sure how much
that even matters, but there is one more avenue that might be worth a try
for Sunshine. The Federal Trade Commission investigates unlawful practices
by companies involved in interstate commerce. I would approach this myself
by filling out the online form at ftc.gov, stating the situation along the
lines that after sending my property to this company to make castings from,
the company kept my property and refused to return it.

If the party hired to make reproductions actually makes the molds used in
production, it may be difficult to claim the molds as property owned,
however, as to the best of my knowledge, it is a customary industry
practice that ownership of molds and dies remain with the maker unless
otherwise specified. I think the way this works is that molds and dies are
considered proprietary tooling of the mold maker necessary to perform the
work of making reproductions. What one is usually paying for is the cost
incurred to make the tooling, not the purchase of the tooling. If Martin
himself made the molds, or if they were made by a third party that Martin
himself commissioned for the work, then F&C probably has no legal claim to
them. I'd think getting the masters back would be the main objective, anyway.

I believe the FTC is in place mainly to protect consumers, so I'm not
certain if a business to business relationship qualifies, but filing out
the form might take all of 15 minutes or so to get things started and find
out.

OK, standard disclaimer-- I'm not a lawyer, so don't consider any of the
above as legal advise!

Ron Hildebrand

I am glad you are not a lawyer.
I have had apox 100 molds made and after paying the cost of making the molds EVERY one of them were mine. I
could remove them and run them in my own shop or leave them there and let my mold maker run them on his
machine. I had one set of molds made by a mold maker who had no way of running them and He shipped them to me
as they were finished so I could get some test samples made to check the molds. These molds were injection molds.
I have had rubber molds made also from MY patterns. I paid for these molds to be made and I had all of them in
my shop until I sold my business.
Sunshine knows what he has to do to settle his problem. It is called civil court action. Leave the government
out of it.
Thank you.
Larry Jackman

Larry,

As for the molds, I used the words "customary" and "usually". In practice,
it all depends upon the situation. Any agreement can be made to override
customary and usual practices, and any shop can have a more liberal policy
in place than what they are legally entitled to. I did not and cannot speak
for the policies of individual mold makers.

I was speaking of general industry practice. This is the same thing as in
printing, where the printer generally owns the plates, or in photography,
where the photographer generally owns the negatives. These are the settled
and established practices of each industry, and mostly do not have to be
specified on invoices--although in some cases, especially when a company
deals often with the general public, it is specified. For instance, my
portrait invoice states. "The studio retains ownership of all negatives
and/or digital files", even though it is not necessary for it to do so.

You have a great mold maker. One mold maker I used locally when I was
producing kits in the 70s and 80s was the same way as yours. Cliff Grandt
sent me a die I had him make so I could shoot it locally, even though
legally, he didn't have to. A lot of people in the hobby industry are very
accommodating, as are a lot of smaller, local shops. However, I would only
suggest that if you enter into any mold making arrangements with a
different company, check on their policy regarding this first if you expect
to take possession of the mold.

As far as the government goes, as a citizen of the US, Martin pays Federal
taxes, and therefore government services are there for him to use if he so
chooses. If the FTC service is applicable--which I am not entirely sure it
is--it is as legitimate a course of action, and much more reasonable for a
small business to afford, than a civil action involving thousands of
dollars across state borders. Some people would say leave the lawyers out
if it.

Ron Hildebrand

Tom Olsen writes...

A good example is the PRR R50B express reefer. Martin has had the masters

done for about a year, but had not secured a source of trucks to go with
them.<

Not to blast Tom personally but here's what happen regarding the R50B...

About 2� years ago on the passenger car list I sent a plea for an R50B, I
knew there had to be an interest with some plastic manufacturer, I am not a
big resin fan. I emailed Bill Schneider, he was polite and told me his plate
was full but it would be a good project for someone just not him. I thought
of Red Caboose after some conversion with Bill Schaumburg, no luck, Bill
McClung was deepening his commitment to N Scale. So I emailed and called Bill
Wischer and I knew it would be iffy because he was working on the REA car,
but he was inviting. Then Tom Madden emailed me a mentioned that if I made
the masters he could find a way to have it cast... Tempting but I couldn't
commit because of a follow up call from Wischer. That is when this all got
started. I handed off the initial plans and info for the project in front of
Mike Brock at the first Cocoa Beach meet. Within a week I needed to bring Bob
Johnson from the PRRT&HS so if there were issues I couldn't resolve, he could
resolve them by accessing the data in the microfiche files. The industry was
aware and I never made it a secrete I always kept the info stream out
there...

Then Walther's announced the plastic version which recently came out. His

market is no longer there to sell enough

cars to make the investment practical.<

Then about a year ago when more people realized that the car was a reality I
got all this email from guys asking me to have Walthers back off as Martin
wanted to do the kit and they wanted it done in resin... WHAT??? Are you
nutz? I can't believe Martin's following would allow him to waste the tool
time... I knew the Walthers tooling was in China and in line for cutting. We
had already worked on details and so forth and I harped about how important
details and heavy handed tooling could hurt, they listened... Next thing I
knew two weeks into the Painting lettering portion of the project there is a
writing Champaign on the PRR list to have a letter sent to Martin to produce
the kit and make a commitment on the kits you might buy...? One individual
even questioned the quality of the Walthers tooling. I am thinking to
myself, this is insane resin will not stem the tide...! IMHO someone,
several, let Martin walk into this and I told him so in Naperville. Let me
make one thing perfectly clear I will never hold back when I know a project
is coming out but I WILL NOT DIVULGE THE COMPANY NAME until I am told I can
do so. This was true about the passenger cars and is true with the B&O car.
Mike Brock knew of the Budd cars as he shared the info on the UP 10-6 car and
refuses to take credit. Tim O'Connor shared the info on the SP 10-6 and it is
coming, as well as the PRR CZ 10-6 and the Santa Fe 10-6. Let me remind
everyone and Tom Madden can confirm this Walthers is going to do Heavy weight
passenger cars...

>Next to the time factor of making the masters, molds and producing the kit
is the time and money spent to put

together and print the assembly instruction sheets, the prototype data sheet
and the end of box labels. If this car appears, it probably would be as
Private Stock, but I doubt that he will do so. There are too many other
projects that warrant doing. So why compete with the plastic manufacturers
who will wait until the urethane guys develop the market and then take it
away afterwards.

Tom Olsen
Newark, Delaware<

So if you guys feel that Walthers hurt Martin look in the MIRROR? I mentioned
in Cocoa Beach and I believe Richard Hendrickson can confirm this, it takes
about two years for the normal flow to have a concept become a reality unless
it is fast tracked. I had been trying to get a commitment on a B&O wagon top
box car and finally got Wischer to commit in Cocoa Beach as I felt it would
blend well into his headend equipment. I was emailed by another manufacturer
that his company had already started the tooling and I called Wischer to back
off as I feel there is no need for two. I only wish that the manufacturers
would meet once a year at a modeling meet get together and decide and share
who is doing what ... won't happen LOL LOL LOL ... You have some that are
just prone to flat out denial even when you are sure what you have discovered
is true. As a matter of fact we make wish list and then submit them to one
guy and ask to find someone to do the cars, or whatever. I like Mike's venue
as he makes it so the forum is open and manufacturers are invited it is a
shame more don't show up. But this year Wischer looked like he was taking
dictation. There were lots of good ideas... 3^) Cocoa Beach seems to be the
place to be.

Richard I thing it is time for a good WISH LIST and then let's compare notes
and see who we think can get what done. WE ALL need a good 1932 ARR car, it
is long overdue.

Greg Martin



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