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Southern #23300-23486 Boxcar Doors and Tack Boards #23300-23486

HAWK0621@...
 

In a message dated 5/3/03 12:12:32 PM, allencain@... writes:

I am posting this question for the second time to some lists. Unfortunately
I did not get any responses to the first request. Hopefully, someone can
help me soon as I am now at the point of adding the doors.

I am building four of the very fine Branchline Blueprint Southern Boxcars
(kit #1514) which represent the #23300-23486 series, built 8-47 by
Pullman-Standard (lot 5855). 
These kits as received from Branchline came with a random selection of
Youngstown and Superior 8” doors and I am trying to determine the correct
door for 1955.  As usual, Branchline is being GREAT about offering
information and replacement parts.  I can not say enough good things about
their customer service.
<SNIP>

Allen,
There are three separate issues here. First, not all cars in the entire
series specified received Superior doors. Cars in series 23300-23472 (173
cars) received 7-panel Superior doors and 23743-23486 (14 cars) received
Youngstown doors. There were other cars produced as part of lot no. 5855, but
I will not discuss them since you specified only series 23300-23486. The
prototype cars having 7-panel Superior doors had a version of the Superior
door with evenly spaces panels top to bottom. As built, the placards were
attached to the second stiffener down from the top of the door. See photo on
page 29 of the November 1999 RMJ. (Incidentally, the roster that I had
published in the October/November 1999 RMJ requires updating as I
subsequently obtained original Pullman-Standard bills of materials for this
lot number. I used the best information I had at the time, but it was
incorrect regarding this series of cars.)

Secondly, Branchline Trains has not tooled a 7-panel Superior door for
openings of 8' wide. The kits have 6-panel doors, which are incorrect for
this series cars. The 6-panel Superior door first appeared in 1952.
Conceivably, the car you are modeling could have been equipped with a
replacement set of doors by 1955.

The only HO-scale doors that I'm aware of that are correct for this car were
made by Joe Pennington of Springfield, Missouri. Joe produced these doors in
cast urethane for SL-SF PS-1s built in 1948. However, I recently heard that
Joe is sold out of these doors and was getting out of the business of
producing parts of this type.

Third, the placard could have been lowered any time after January 1, 1954,
but I've seen many examples of cars photographed in the late 1950s that
retained the placards in their original high position. Chances were
reasonably high that in 1955 the placard was still in the original high
position for many cars in the series. My only in-service photos of cars from
P-S lot 5855 have Youngstown doors.

This probably isn't the "simple answer" that you may have hoped for, but
these are the facts as I know them.

Regards,
Ed Hawkins

Allen Cain <allencain@...>
 

Folks,
 
I am posting this question for the second time to some lists. Unfortunately
I did not get any responses to the first request. Hopefully, someone can
help me soon as I am now at the point of adding the doors.

I am building four of the very fine Branchline Blueprint Southern Boxcars
(kit #1514) which represent the #23300-23486 series, built 8-47 by
Pullman-Standard (lot 5855). 
 
These kits as received from Branchline came with a random selection of
Youngstown and Superior 8” doors and I am trying to determine the correct
door for 1955.  As usual, Branchline is being GREAT about offering
information and replacement parts.  I can not say enough good things about
their customer service.
 
Bill Schneider of Branchline furnished this info:  “Further to our door
discussion, my roster shows that Southern #23300-23486, built 8-47 by PS
(lot 5855) were all equipped with 8' 7 Panel Superior doors. I have a photo
in the Southern Color Guide of one of these cars in 1963 (albeit
re-numbered), another of one in Middletown NY on the O&W in 1948, so I think
its safe to say they ran that way in 1955.”
 
The photo that Bill sent me appears to be a builder’s photo and has the
Superior door.  If a builder’s photo, this would represent the car in 1947. 
He also has evidence that at least some of these cars retained the Superior
doors as late as 1963.  But, did all?
 
Can anyone offer a photo reference or advice on the correct door for these
cars in 1955?
 
The car numbers are:
 
23005
23168
23252
23399

And finally, what is the correct location for the door and end tack boards
for 1955? Should they be in the high or low position?
 
Thanks,
 
Allen Cain
Murfreesboro, TN

Ron Hildebrand <SteamFreight@...>
 

At 01:11 PM 5/3/2003 -0500, you wrote:
Folks,

I am posting this question for the second time to some lists. Unfortunately
I did not get any responses to the first request.

Can anyone offer a photo reference or advice on the correct door for these
cars in 1955?

The car numbers are:

23005
23168
23252
23399

And finally, what is the correct location for the door and end tack boards
for 1955? Should they be in the high or low position?
Allen ,

I posted this response to the second part of your question when you originally posed it on the SouthernModeler group in late April:
__________________________________________________________
Guy Wilber replied to a similar (but generic) question on the Steam
Era Freight Cars group a couple of months ago. In essence, before
1953, placard boards were to be "not less" than 4'-6" from the floor
of a box car. Effective in March '54, that rule was changed to lower
placard boards (the larger boards) and tack boards (the smaller
boards)to be located so that the bottoms of the boards were no more
than 2'-6" above the car floor. New cars reflected that change right
away, and older cars had the changes applied as they were shopped for
Class 1 repairs.
I guess if you can find out when the cars you are modeling were
shopped, you can pretty well guess if they had their placard holders
high or low at your target date.
Hope this helps.
_________________________________________________________-

If you are looking for the location of the tack boards on each *specific* car on a certain date after the rule went into effect, then I guess this isn't much help, but you didn't note that after I posted the above.

Ron Hildebrand

switchengines <jrs060@...>
 

I had done some checking of my own several years ago on the
movement of the placard boards from the higher position on the ends
and doors of new house cars to the lower position, and found that the
mandated change date was January 1, 1954. This I have found to be
correct on all builders photos I have seen to date.

Jerry Stewart

--- In STMFC@..., Ron Hildebrand <SteamFreight@h...>
wrote:
At 01:11 PM 5/3/2003 -0500, you wrote:
Folks,

I am posting this question for the second time to some lists.
Unfortunately
I did not get any responses to the first request.

Can anyone offer a photo reference or advice on the correct door
for these
cars in 1955?

The car numbers are:

23005
23168
23252
23399

And finally, what is the correct location for the door and end
tack boards
for 1955? Should they be in the high or low position?
Allen ,

I posted this response to the second part of your question when you
originally posed it on the SouthernModeler group in late April:
__________________________________________________________
>Guy Wilber replied to a similar (but generic) question on the
Steam
>Era Freight Cars group a couple of months ago. In essence, before
>1953, placard boards were to be "not less" than 4'-6" from the
floor
>of a box car. Effective in March '54, that rule was changed to
lower
>placard boards (the larger boards) and tack boards (the smaller
>boards)to be located so that the bottoms of the boards were no
more
>than 2'-6" above the car floor. New cars reflected that change
right
>away, and older cars had the changes applied as they were shopped
for
>Class 1 repairs.
>I guess if you can find out when the cars you are modeling were
>shopped, you can pretty well guess if they had their placard
holders
>high or low at your target date.

>Hope this helps.
_________________________________________________________-

If you are looking for the location of the tack boards on each
*specific*
car on a certain date after the rule went into effect, then I guess
this
isn't much help, but you didn't note that after I posted the above.

Ron Hildebrand

Allen Cain <allencain@...>
 

Ed and Jerry,

THANK YOU!

This was EXACTLY what I was looking for. I had noticed the incorrect number
of panels on the door and had been looking for replacements. Now that I
have your input, I can comfortably use the Superior doors and consider them
as replacements on the cars which came with the six panel doors.

Ed, any info which you would like to share on the 5855 series would also be
appreciated.

Allen Cain
Murfreesboro, TN

cf5250 <timoconnor@...>
 

This was EXACTLY what I was looking for. I had noticed the
incorrect number of panels on the door and had been looking
for replacements.... Allen Cain
Just FYI, Branchline included a 7 panel 8 foot door on their
initial series of 50 foot box cars. The panels are different
sizes however, so it's not strictly correct either. I built
the car with the kit's 6 panel door even though I have some
of Joe's beautiful resin doors -- I didn't feel like trying
to match the paint color.

Tim O'Connor