I suspect we need information on operational practices to answer this, but my guess is that you'd see more open doors in locals that gather the empty cars. After they're cleaned and checked at the major yard, the RRs closed the doors before they hit the main line. Hence both observations are correct, yet incomplete.

David Soderblom
Baltimore MD

On Sunday, Jul 20, 2003, at 04:21 US/Eastern, STMFC@... wrote:

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Message: 20
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 00:26:56 -0400
From: "Steven Delibert" <STEVDEL@...>
Subject: Re: Working doors on box cars

closable. OTOH, a review of 4 frt trains in the Big Boy Collection video,

of 254 box cars rolling >past the camera, only one had a partially open
door. At least one train is headed west with...I'm >pretty

Then the video is a bad sample, or practices varied from region to region,
or UP ran an unusually tight ship (certainly not unbelievable) -- I think
the rules always said that cars weren't to be moved with doors open (keep
the hobos out), but (mostly in The Empire State) I rarely saw a train in the
40's-50's-60's without at least a couple of wide-open boxcars in it --
especially noticeable because they were so fascinating as they came abreast
and you could look through to daylight on the other side.

Steve Delibert

David Soderblom
Operations and Data Management Division
Space Telescope Science Institute

Just sampling panoramic yard photos, open doors were rather rare in the
1940's and 1950's, but not unusual by the 1960's. I recently watched a
1980's SP tape showing a mainline freight running with MANY box cars
with open doors. (Double door cars, no less!) So maybe people's ideas
are affected by more recent memories rather than examination of photos
from the steam era. In the 1950's there were still people who worked
on the ground in railroad yards who could close the doors!

I suspect we need information on operational practices to answer this,
but my guess is that you'd see more open doors in locals that gather
the empty cars. After they're cleaned and checked at the major yard,
the RRs closed the doors before they hit the main line. Hence both
observations are correct, yet incomplete.

David Soderblom
Baltimore MD

Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> -->> NOTE EMAIL CHANGE <<--
Sterling, Massachusetts

Quoting David Soderblom <drs@...>:

I suspect we need information on operational practices to answer this,

but my guess is that you'd see more open doors in locals that gather
the empty cars. After they're cleaned and checked at the major yard,
the RRs closed the doors before they hit the main line. Hence both
observations are correct, yet incomplete.

Good point! Thanks for bringing it to our attention.

Best wishes, Don Valentine

--- In STMFC@..., newrail@s... wrote:

Quoting David Soderblom <drs@s...>:

I suspect we need information on operational practices to answer

this,

but my guess is that you'd see more open doors in locals that

gather

the empty cars. After they're cleaned and checked at the major

yard,

the RRs closed the doors before they hit the main line. Hence

both

observations are correct, yet incomplete.

When I was a young brakeman in the late 60's, old timers (from the
Steam Era of course) taught me never to pull an empty from an
industry unless the doors were closed. I saw this practice
deteriorate drastically during my career. Also, I was taught to
make sure that there was no dunnage in the cars before I pulled
them, and this also began to deteriorate in the MFCL period.

In yards, conductors used to walk their trains prior to departure,
and I've seen them demand that the car department close doors prior
to departing. I think that deviation from this practice began in
the MFCL period. The rare open doors that you may see in a video or
picture in the Steam Era are probably cars that weren't latched
correctly (everyone makes mistakes or the latch was worn), and came
open in transit.

Jim Wolf
Otis Orchards, WA

Or one opened by a Hobo. You can spot the MTY ones even with the door closed by the fact they did not have a seal on them.
Thank you
Larry Jackman

--- In STMFC@..., ljack70117@a... wrote:

Or one opened by a Hobo.

True, although these folks (the real old-time hoboes who knew what
they were doing) often would close the door just short of latching
it to avoid detection. While walking my train in Potomac Yard once,
I once had one of these guys poke his head out of a car and ask me
if there was still a "10 mph slow order on the diamond at Elsmere"
(Wilmington, DE). Apparently, he was a regular.

You can spot the MTY ones even with the door
closed by the fact they did not have a seal on them.

I haven't devised scale seals for my model freight car doors, yet.

Jim Wolf

Quoting James Wolf <wjimwolf@...>:

I haven't devised scale seals for my model freight car doors, yet.

Maybe Mike Watnoski can come up with some after he finishes the Carmer
cut levers. (-:

Best wishes, Don Valentine

Greetings,

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting. I have too
many projects on my plate now. How about trying
aluminum foil slivers glued to the door seal
latch?

Michael Watnoski
Free State Systems


newrail@... wrote:

How about trying
aluminum foil slivers glued to the door seal
latch?

But be sure to put the dull side facing out!

Larry Lee
Auburn, AL

I'm with Dave and Steve on this. I grew up on the C&NW "Cowboy Line", and in the 50s, open doors on empties was normal. Hobos weren't a problem, we didn't have the weather or population to attract them. Until my cousin who worked for the CB&Q set me straight, I thought they left the doors open on purpose so trainmen would know it was available for reloading.

Past the province of this list, the railroads discovered open doors mean increased wind resistance/higher fuel costs. Even so, the doors aren't always shut. I drove through Omaha on I-80 paralleling the UP's main line between 110th and 84th Streets the other day, and of the boxcars parked on the siding there, about half had the doors open, both sliding and plug types.

David Soderblom wrote:

I suspect we need information on operational practices to answer this, but my guess is that you'd see more open doors in locals that gather the empty cars. After they're cleaned and checked at the major yard, the RRs closed the doors before they hit the main line. Hence both observations are correct, yet incomplete.

Then the video is a bad sample, or practices varied from region to region,
or UP ran an unusually tight ship (certainly not

unbelievable)[Unusual, yes--tight, only in the rectal area; see Hundman's editorial in the Aug 2003 MM--Ron] -- I

think
the rules always said that cars weren't to be moved with doors open (keep
the hobos out), but (mostly in The Empire State) I rarely saw a train in the
40's-50's-60's without at least a couple of wide-open boxcars in it --
especially noticeable because they were so fascinating as they came abreast
and you could look through to daylight on the other side.

Steve Delibert

Ron Boham
Ralston, NE

--- In STMFC@..., "Ron Boham" <spnut@q...> wrote:

I'm with Dave and Steve on this. I grew up on the C&NW "Cowboy

Line",

and in the 50s, open doors on empties was normal. Hobos weren't a
problem, we didn't have the weather or population to attract them.
Until my cousin who worked for the CB&Q set me straight, I

thought they

left the doors open on purpose so trainmen would know it was

available

for reloading.

I think that any practice of leaving car doors open intentionally
would be localized in the steam era, and leaving doors open for the
purpose of grading empties (determining their suitability for
reloading) would be an exception. It could be that things on that
part of the CNW were a little more "relaxed" if you will. Adherence
to operating practices and attitudes varied between companies, and
varied within companies depending on location, tradition,
supervision, etc. Some roads were known for being "anal" about the
way they operated (ATSF, Southern for example), and others were less
so (I don't want to piss anyone off with examples of that).

My experience in the forbidden era is that empty doors generally
were closed especially for interchange. I've had an interchange cut
refused by the GTW in Detroit because doors were open on boxcars.
In the steam era, when cars were actually inspected in train yards
by mechanical personnel, the doors were closed. I'm not saying that
doors were always closed, but that it was standard operating
procedure when mechanical department personnel were involved.

Jim Wolf

In addition to closing doors for empty cars going to interchange, the
other reason for closing doors was to lower wind resistance to a moving
train. Railroads found that a moving train with a great number of box
cars with open doors (before the plug door era) took more power from the
head end and therefore more fuel to get the train over the road. Open
plug doors were a safety hazard due to the locking arms hanging down and
swinging in the breeze striking all sorts of objects, such as passing
and stationary structures, equipment and personnel.

Even in the steam era, railroads were energy and safety conscious and
tried to avoid situations that would impact the bottom line.

Tom Olsen
7 Boundary Road, West Brance
Newark, Delaware, 19711-7479
PH: (302) 738-4292
E-Mail: tmolsen@...

James Wolf wrote: