Steam Era "Piggyback" Flatcars


asychis@...
 

In a message dated 7/24/2003 12:42:26 PM Central Standard Time,
timoconnor@attbi.com writes:

Resin is really the way
to go with trailers -- they don't have to be "perfect" like our
freight cars,
Hmmm, I wonder why? It seems to me that perfect trailers would compliment
perfect freight cars (flat cars in this case).

Along the same lines as trailers, anyone know of a way to model the early
containers used by the MoPac? The railroad carried them in gondolas, and there
is an excellent Sunshine model out of the MP panel-sided gondolas.

Jerry Michels


asychis@...
 

Tim I guess I was confusing less than perfect with crude. Seems that a
number of the existing trailers I've seen are relatively crude.

Jerry Michels


Shawn Beckert
 

Fellow Listers,

I'd be the first to agree that we need much more in the way
of *accurate* (not just "available") 1/87 trucks and trailers
from the 1940's and 1950's. Until recently I'd have to say I
wasn't impressed with the quality of trucks and trailers that
were offered in HO - too "toylike" - but that appears to be
getting better with the offerings from Don Mills, On-Trak, and
other manufacturers. I've also read somewhere that Sunshine
Models plans to produce HO steam-era trailers in the future.

I think a larger issue at this point is what to put all those
trailers on. When the Red Caboose Espee F-70-7 becomes available,
we'll have the starting point for the Southern Pacific piggyback
flatcar (which IIRC was the F-70-10 class) and indeed it's been
mentioned that someone might produce all the details needed to
make these cars correct for early SP pig flats.

Other than that possibility, I don't think there's much out there
that's usable for this kind of "steam-era" rolling stock. I seem
to recall that a cast-metal flatcar used to be available to put
the Ulrich trailers on - maybe Ulrich made these themselves? And
the old Revell flatcar was offered in a piggyback version, IIRC.

Beyond that, I think we're hurting for decent piggyback flatcars
from the era we're all interested in here. Until this kind of car
gets produced, all those neat new trucks and trailers will have to
be background scenery on our layouts.

Shawn Beckert


Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
 

Does anyone know the name of the person who does the On-Trak
resin trailers? I also really like them -- I have a bunch from
the Naperville meet. I'd like to contact the guy and share some
pictures with him of 1950's trailers. Resin is really the way
to go with trailers -- they don't have to be "perfect" like our
freight cars, and there are too many designs to justify the
cost of injection molding.

Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@comcast.net> -->> NOTE EMAIL CHANGE <<--
Sterling, Massachusetts


Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...>
 

Friends,

We're probably not as bad off in the pig flat department as some of you think. IIRC, the PRR flat offered by Bowser (F30 whatzit?) was rebuilt for piggy back service. Some of the 53' flats represented by the Proto 2000 model were also converted to pig service, though maybe not during our era. Also the Walthers and Tichy GSC flats were equipped for pigs, and the Walthers model has the parts for the conversion (a bit crude though, maybe quality third-party retro parts like early hitches and tie downs would sell). Even some of the Tichy and Ertl 40' flats ended up carrying pigs, Frisco's I think. This has all been covered in the articles describing these cars by Richard Hendrickson and in RMJ a few years ago, so anyone who is interested should go scrabbling through their back issues.

Kind regards,

Garth G. Groff


Jon Miller <atsf@...>
 

Does anyone know the name of the person who does the On-Trak
resin trailers?<
Yes, it's Paul Redmond. I've had a few phone conversations with him and
he's a really nice guy. The address and phone on the web site (or at least
one of them) is wrong. Current address is;

On-trak model products
PO Box 398
Walnut, IL 61376-0398


Try this site;
http://www.1-87vehicles.org/directory/on_trak.php

Jon Miller
AT&SF
For me time has stopped in 1941
Digitrax DCC owner, Chief/Zephyr systems
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
 

Shawn Beckert wrote:
...I don't think there's much out there that's usable for this kind
[TOFC] of "steam-era" rolling stock. I seem to recall that a cast-
metal flatcar used to be available to put the Ulrich trailers on -
maybe Ulrich made these themselves? And the old Revell flatcar was
offered in a piggyback version, IIRC.

Ulrich did indeed have a cast-metal flatcar for their trailers. It
has a "truncated pyramid" trailer hitch where you screwed on the
trailer.

The problem with the early TOFC cars is that they're almost all
railroad specific. Off the top of my head (posting from work), there
are a few HO scale flatcar (and gondola) kits that you can convert to
TOFC cars, but you'll have to do some work, including trailer
supports, tie downs, and rails:

- Walthers 75 ft TOFC flat: PRR F39 and subclasses, introduced 1954.

- Walthers/Bowser F30A: Some converted to TrucTrain service beginning
in 1954.

- Tichy War Emergency Gon: Rock Island created quick piggyback flats
by removing the side sheathing and ends. I'll have to look up when
these were done (unless Steve Hile can give me an assist before 1800
today). It'll be some work to cut out the sheathing on the Tichy
model, but it's a heck of easier than working with the cast metal
Ulrich sides!

The early TOFC articles were actually by Bill Wright and Mike Vaughan
and appeared in the Sep 87, Oct 87, Jan 88, Feb 88, Jun 88, and Aug
88 issues of Model Railroading (Schleicher, not Kalmbach). PRR
TrucTrain service was showcased in an extensive article in the Autumn
92 Keystone.


Ben Hom


Jon Miller <atsf@...>
 

You want to go back even further "Red Ball" had a flat with two
trailers. Probably early '60s. I've seen the ads but never a real one.
Probably made of type metal as were most of the Red Ball items.

Jon Miller
AT&SF
For me time has stopped in 1941
Digitrax DCC owner, Chief/Zephyr systems
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


thompson@...
 

Shawn Beckert said:
I think a larger issue at this point is what to put all those
trailers on. When the Red Caboose Espee F-70-7 becomes available,
we'll have the starting point for the Southern Pacific piggyback
flatcar (which IIRC was the F-70-10 class) and indeed it's been
mentioned that someone might produce all the details needed to
make these cars correct for early SP pig flats.
Most were F-70-7. F-70-10 was essentially the same car but all welded.
The casual statement "all the details needed" is sobering to anyone who's
looked at the original SP tie-down method (eight cables per trailer plus
chocks, etc.), and the same is true for many other roads' early pig
technology.

I seem
to recall that a cast-metal flatcar used to be available to put
the Ulrich trailers on - maybe Ulrich made these themselves?
Yes, but it's a 40-ft. flat, a size rarely used for trailers, and has a
huge trailer mount which I suspect is entirely imaginary. I'd write that
one off.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 http://www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroads and on Western history


Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
 

Jerry, you ask why. A number of reasons --

1. They don't have to operate. (No couplers, or rolling wheels)

2. They are "open loads". Our tractor loads, auto loads, lumber
loads, and so on, almost always are less "true to prototype"
than the cars they ride on. If I insist on perfect trailers I
might as well require all other open loads to be perfect too.

3. It's unrealistic to expect anyone who actually cares about TOFC
to manufacture perfect models at a reasonable cost. Heck, I think
there are only about 12 of us in HO who even care about 1950's
piggyback trains...

4. I have only so much time. Perfect trailers are way, way down on
my list of things I can't live without.


Resin is really the way to go with trailers -- they don't have to
be "perfect" like our freight cars,
Hmmm, I wonder why? It seems to me that perfect trailers would compliment
perfect freight cars (flat cars in this case).

Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@comcast.net> -->> NOTE EMAIL CHANGE <<--
Sterling, Massachusetts


Larry Smith
 

Tim

The man's name is Paul Redmond. His phone number is 1-815-379-2171. Don't have his new address. Be ready to talk as Paul will bend your ear.

Larry Smith

Tim O'Connor wrote:

Does anyone know the name of the person who does the On-Trak
resin trailers? I also really like them -- I have a bunch from
the Naperville meet. I'd like to contact the guy and share some
pictures with him of 1950's trailers. Resin is really the way
to go with trailers -- they don't have to be "perfect" like our
freight cars, and there are too many designs to justify the
cost of injection molding.

Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@comcast.net> -->> NOTE EMAIL CHANGE <<--
Sterling, Massachusetts



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Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
 

Garth wrote

We're probably not as bad off in the pig flat department as some of you
think. IIRC, the PRR flat offered by Bowser (F30 whatzit?) was rebuilt
for piggy back service.
The big problem for 1950's piggyback modelers is the lack of interchange.
For the SP, I need F-70-7's and SP/PMT trailers. Maybe a P-I-E and an NP
trailer too. That's about it. As I creep into the early 1960's I can add
85' TTX flats, AAR 50 ton flats from UP, C&NW, SSW, and 40' trailers. To
to model SP pig trains, I need a lot of SP equipment.

Another problem is the lack of good prototype photos. Each railroad built
their own particular style of rub rails and deck layout. I really want to
have those details be reasonably close, but I have never found a good shot
of a TOFC-converted SP F-70-7 deck, for example. Many of the articles do
show excellent models, but often without "proof" in the way of a good
prototype photo. And drawings are even scarcer than photos.

Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@comcast.net> -->> NOTE EMAIL CHANGE <<--
Sterling, Massachusetts


Bruce F. Smith <smithbf@...>
 

Tim says:
2. They are "open loads". Our tractor loads, auto loads, lumber
loads, and so on, almost always are less "true to prototype"
than the cars they ride on. If I insist on perfect trailers I
might as well require all other open loads to be perfect too.
Sooo....???? Gosh, I hate to be half anal about anything when I can be
completely anal! I don't consider the load to be any different than the
car it rides in/on. Its all part of the model <G>.

This is why I researched the models of Sherman tank and all of the other
military vehicles being produced in mid 1944 so that the correct models are
present as loads. The date of production comes directly from the book "The
American Arsenal", Greenhill Books, 2001, which has the Army's specs for
just about everything! The method of tie down comes either directly from
the army's documents or from photo/video evidence.

I know if a military modeler looks at my Shermans, they will immediately
recognize that these are M4A3 models based on the tranny cover, hull and
turret. Each vehicle is marked appropriately and I have even tried to make
sure that the serial numbers duplicate or are close to those I have seen in
photos. Of course, I have yet to find the earlier blue markings that I
want to use on vehicles being returned for rebuilding (e.g. M3 Lee tanks
headed to Baldwin from training centers to be rebuilt into M31 armoured
recovery vehicles.)

Fortunately for the military modeler, there are great selections of era
appropriate vehicles through folks like Fidelis
(http://www.fidelismodels.com/) Now I am working on increasing the variety
of equipment on flats and gons to emphasize even more what was shipped by
rail.

Happy Rails
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.
Scott-Ritchey Research Center
334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin
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Rich Chapin <rwc27q@...>
 

Shawn and List,

I agree there is little out there for pig flats and we could certainly use
some. But, given each road started with "homemade" pig flats, I guess that
is not surprising.

Another option is the Bowser 50ft F30a flat. It's "correct" for building the
first of the Lehigh Valley "homemade" pig flats. Bowser even has them with
the LV markings. (BTW, there were two other LV homemades, but neither
started as a flatcar.) LV had 50 of these (#10000-10049) built 1950-51, and
converted 37 to piggyback flats in 54 & 55. Still rostered as class FC in
1960, but all had been converted back to FM flats by 64 (sorry for the
boundary heresy).

Best Regards,
Rich Chapin

----- Original Message -----
From: "Beckert, Shawn" <shawn.beckert@disney.com>
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 1:16 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Steam Era "Piggyback" Flatcars


Other than that possibility, I don't think there's much out there
that's usable for this kind of "steam-era" rolling stock. I seem
to recall that a cast-metal flatcar used to be available to put
the Ulrich trailers on - maybe Ulrich made these themselves? And
the old Revell flatcar was offered in a piggyback version, IIRC.

Beyond that, I think we're hurting for decent piggyback flatcars
from the era we're all interested in here. Until this kind of car
gets produced, all those neat new trucks and trailers will have to
be background scenery on our layouts.


Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
 

Ah! I understand. The Athearn trailers are unacceptable to me.
The resin trailers could use more etched parts for landing gear,
rear "bumper" (or whatever you call that thing), and so on --
and especially we need more realistic, detailed refrigeration
units -- but they are acceptable models based on actual prototypes.

I guess what I meant is this: If an SP trailer was made by Strick,
or Great Dane, and all I can find is a Fruehauf model, but it sort
of looks similar... then I can accept it, because my standards are
lower when it comes to trailers. (Plus, I haven't found a single
model that matches an SP prototype yet, prior to 1960.)

Tim I guess I was confusing less than perfect with crude. Seems that a
number of the existing trailers I've seen are relatively crude.

Jerry Michels

Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@comcast.net> -->> NOTE EMAIL CHANGE <<--
Sterling, Massachusetts


Guy Wilber
 

In a message dated 7/24/2003 1:47:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, timoconnor@attbi.com writes:

4. I have only so much time. Perfect trailers are way, way
down on
my list of things I can't live without.
Tim,

Only until that F-70-7 arrives! Maybe by then some manufacturer(s) will discover that trucks and trailers WERE a part of the late 1940s and into the 1950s.

Regards,

Guy Wilber
Sparks, Nevada


Montford Switzer <ZOE@...>
 

SHAWN: The nice thing about the early piggyback flat cars was
they were made from 40 ft. and 50 ft. cars already on the railroad's
roster allowing the modeler to do the same conversion that the railroad
did. The conversions are pretty simple, but different from railroad to
railroad until standardization hit about 1959- 1960. The 75 ft. plus
length two trailer cars were built before 1960, but barely. Mont
Switzer

-----Original Message-----
From: Beckert, Shawn [mailto:shawn.beckert@disney.com]
Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 11:16 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [STMFC] Steam Era "Piggyback" Flatcars

Fellow Listers,

I'd be the first to agree that we need much more in the way
of *accurate* (not just "available") 1/87 trucks and trailers
from the 1940's and 1950's. Until recently I'd have to say I
wasn't impressed with the quality of trucks and trailers that
were offered in HO - too "toylike" - but that appears to be
getting better with the offerings from Don Mills, On-Trak, and
other manufacturers. I've also read somewhere that Sunshine
Models plans to produce HO steam-era trailers in the future.

I think a larger issue at this point is what to put all those
trailers on. When the Red Caboose Espee F-70-7 becomes available,
we'll have the starting point for the Southern Pacific piggyback
flatcar (which IIRC was the F-70-10 class) and indeed it's been
mentioned that someone might produce all the details needed to
make these cars correct for early SP pig flats.

Other than that possibility, I don't think there's much out there
that's usable for this kind of "steam-era" rolling stock. I seem
to recall that a cast-metal flatcar used to be available to put
the Ulrich trailers on - maybe Ulrich made these themselves? And
the old Revell flatcar was offered in a piggyback version, IIRC.

Beyond that, I think we're hurting for decent piggyback flatcars
from the era we're all interested in here. Until this kind of car
gets produced, all those neat new trucks and trailers will have to
be background scenery on our layouts.

Shawn Beckert


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benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
 

Mont Switzer wrote:
The 75 ft. plus length two trailer cars were built before 1960, but
barely.

I diagree. PRR 470400-470599, Class F39, built at Bethlehem
(Johnstown PA), December, 1954. See "Pennsy's TrucTrain Service",
The Keystone, Autumn 1992.


Ben Hom


Montford Switzer <ZOE@...>
 

Tim: Accurate trailers are not that difficult especially if you can
start with a model that is basically correct. Most trailers were of
welded construction and any rivets were so small that you could not seem
them in HO. That leaves the nose box and connections (HO MU glad hands
work there), landing gear (details available from several sources),
suspension, wheels and tires (available again) and under ride protection
(easy to scratch build). Even scratch building a trailer isn't that
touch for all of the reasons that you have listed. Just build the box
and hand the goodies on. I once heard a trailer manufacturer's rep say
anyone with a barn and power drill who could buy springs and axles could
be in the trailer business. Mont Switzer

-----Original Message-----
From: Tim O'Connor [mailto:timoconnor@attbi.com]
Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 12:48 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Steam Era "Piggyback" Flatcars


Jerry, you ask why. A number of reasons --

1. They don't have to operate. (No couplers, or rolling wheels)

2. They are "open loads". Our tractor loads, auto loads, lumber
loads, and so on, almost always are less "true to prototype"
than the cars they ride on. If I insist on perfect trailers I
might as well require all other open loads to be perfect too.

3. It's unrealistic to expect anyone who actually cares about TOFC
to manufacture perfect models at a reasonable cost. Heck, I think
there are only about 12 of us in HO who even care about 1950's
piggyback trains...

4. I have only so much time. Perfect trailers are way, way down on
my list of things I can't live without.


Resin is really the way to go with trailers -- they don't have to
be "perfect" like our freight cars,
Hmmm, I wonder why? It seems to me that perfect trailers would
compliment
perfect freight cars (flat cars in this case).

Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@comcast.net> -->> NOTE EMAIL CHANGE <<--
Sterling, Massachusetts



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Montford Switzer <ZOE@...>
 

Ben: You are right about the build date I'm sure, but they didn't get
around much until the late 1950's from what I have been able to observe
from photos. They seem to have stayed on the PRR, but hauling on and
off line trailers. Sorry for the error. Mont Switzer

-----Original Message-----
From: benjaminfrank_hom [mailto:b.hom@worldnet.att.net]
Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 5:58 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Steam Era "Piggyback" Flatcars

Mont Switzer wrote:
The 75 ft. plus length two trailer cars were built before 1960, but
barely.

I diagree. PRR 470400-470599, Class F39, built at Bethlehem
(Johnstown PA), December, 1954. See "Pennsy's TrucTrain Service",
The Keystone, Autumn 1992.


Ben Hom



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