BAR Reefers


Denny Anspach <danspach@...>
 

"George Hollwedel" <georgeloop@...> asks re: BAR reefers-

Would a load of Maine potatoes ever have made it's way to California?
I have no idea, but what I do know is that I used to see whole solid blocks of leased yellow BAR reefers making their way over Donner Summit in September during the years c. 1953-1957. If there were other liveries, I do not remember them.

Denny

--
Denny S. Anspach, MD
Sacramento


tim gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

"George Hollwedel" <georgeloop@...> asks re: BAR reefers-

Would a load of Maine potatoes ever have made it's way to California?
Deny Anspach replied:

I have no idea, but what I do know is that I used to see whole solid
blocks of leased yellow BAR reefers making their way over Donner
Summit in September during the years c. 1953-1957. If there were
other liveries, I do not remember them.
In the potato off-season, the BAR had an arrangement by which they
provided their surplus reefers to PFE.

Tim Gilbert


George Hollwedel <georgeloop@...>
 

Solves 1/2 the equation,
now when did the color change from blue and white to yellow/orange?
Would a blue and white one have lasted until 1953?

----- Original Message -----
From: "tim gilbert" <tgilbert@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2003 6:20 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: BAR Reefers


"George Hollwedel" <georgeloop@...> asks re: BAR reefers-

Would a load of Maine potatoes ever have made it's way to California?
Deny Anspach replied:

I have no idea, but what I do know is that I used to see whole solid
blocks of leased yellow BAR reefers making their way over Donner
Summit in September during the years c. 1953-1957. If there were
other liveries, I do not remember them.
In the potato off-season, the BAR had an arrangement by which they
provided their surplus reefers to PFE.

Tim Gilbert


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George Hollwedel <georgeloop@...>
 

Micro-Trains has released a blue and white, ex MDT, wood reefer this month
and I'm trying to see how accurate and feasible it is. It is not a red
white and blue boxcar. Micro-Trains is claiming they were painted yellow
"later". They have put #6006 on the car and it can be seen here:

http://www.micro-trains.com/nr_49550.htm

Any help is appreciated, wish I was in Sacramento!

George Hollwedel
Prototype N Scale Models
georgeloop@...


The BAR did not buy their first reefer until 1951. The first series 338
strong in 1/1953, #6000-6999, were ex-MDT reefers and were painted
yellow with black ends. The second series were the #7000-7856 which were
built by Pacific Car & Foundry - 500 in 1951-52 and another 357 in 1953.
These had yellow sides and ends. The #7000's were the ones rented to
PFE during the summer - the off-season for Aroostook County spuds.

Tim Gilbert


tim gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

George Hollwedel wrote:

Solves 1/2 the equation,
now when did the color change from blue and white to yellow/orange?
Would a blue and white one have lasted until 1953?
The Red, White and Blue STATE OF MAINE cars were not reefers, but were
boxcars - some of them insulated. The scheme started to be applied in
the early 1950's.

The BAR did not buy their first reefer until 1951. The first series 338
strong in 1/1953, #6000-6999, were ex-MDT reefers and were painted
yellow with black ends. The second series were the #7000-7856 which were
built by Pacific Car & Foundry - 500 in 1951-52 and another 357 in 1953.
These had yellow sides and ends. The #7000's were the ones rented to
PFE during the summer - the off-season for Aroostook County spuds.

Tim Gilbert


Tim O'Connor
 

Tim, I have a very nice 1950's photo of BAR #6722, a wood reefer
in blue (lower half) and white (upper half) with a big red potato
logo. There is a second car painted the same way in the photo,
perhaps #6039. Champ Decals made a set for this paint scheme --
HR-43.

If anyone can recommend how to model this car, I'd love to hear it!
Could I use the Sunshine MDT kit 20.4? (Is that the prototype?)



now when did the color change from blue and white to yellow/orange?
Would a blue and white one have lasted until 1953?
The Red, White and Blue STATE OF MAINE cars were not reefers, but were
boxcars - some of them insulated. The scheme started to be applied in
the early 1950's.

The BAR did not buy their first reefer until 1951. The first series 338
strong in 1/1953, #6000-6999, were ex-MDT reefers and were painted
yellow with black ends. The second series were the #7000-7856 which were
built by Pacific Car & Foundry - 500 in 1951-52 and another 357 in 1953.
These had yellow sides and ends. The #7000's were the ones rented to
PFE during the summer - the off-season for Aroostook County spuds.

Tim Gilbert

Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> -->> NOTE EMAIL CHANGE <<--
Sterling, Massachusetts


Tim O'Connor
 

George, the paint scheme and information on the MT site is correct,
but the model appears to have an incorrect roof and underframe for
the BAR cars.

Also, the white painted panel on the left side appears to be about
2x too large compared to the photo that I have.


Micro-Trains has released a blue and white, ex MDT, wood reefer this month
and I'm trying to see how accurate and feasible it is. It is not a red
white and blue boxcar. Micro-Trains is claiming they were painted yellow
"later". They have put #6006 on the car and it can be seen here:

http://www.micro-trains.com/nr_49550.htm

Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> -->> NOTE EMAIL CHANGE <<--
Sterling, Massachusetts


George Hollwedel <georgeloop@...>
 

Well, that means I can save my money!

George Hollwedel
Prototype N Scale Models
georgeloop@...

----- Original Message -----
From: "tim gilbert" <tgilbert@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2003 8:38 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: BAR Reefers


George Hollwedel wrote:

Micro-Trains has released a blue and white, ex MDT, wood reefer this
month
and I'm trying to see how accurate and feasible it is. It is not a
red
white and blue boxcar. Micro-Trains is claiming they were painted
yellow
"later".
The BAR had a very short-lived blue & white scheme with a large brown
potato. It was an experiment. If any #6000 series reefer had that
scheme, it was repainted shortly thereafter.

I believe also that it was the #7000 series which were rented off-season
to PFE. As far as I know, the only scheme which a #7000 had in the
1950's was yellow with black lettering.

Tim Gilbert


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tim gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

George Hollwedel wrote:

Micro-Trains has released a blue and white, ex MDT, wood reefer this
month
and I'm trying to see how accurate and feasible it is. It is not a
red
white and blue boxcar. Micro-Trains is claiming they were painted
yellow
"later".
The BAR had a very short-lived blue & white scheme with a large brown
potato. It was an experiment. If any #6000 series reefer had that
scheme, it was repainted shortly thereafter.

I believe also that it was the #7000 series which were rented off-season
to PFE. As far as I know, the only scheme which a #7000 had in the
1950's was yellow with black lettering.

Tim Gilbert


Tim O'Connor
 

Tim Gilbert wrote

The BAR had a very short-lived blue & white scheme with a large brown
potato. It was an experiment. If any #6000 series reefer had that
scheme, it was repainted shortly thereafter.
Tim, may I ask why you say that? I know SP freight cars that numbered
in the hundreds, and ran for years and years, and photos of them are
as rare as diamonds. Just because you haven't seen a photo....


I believe also that it was the #7000 series which were rented off-season
to PFE. As far as I know, the only scheme which a #7000 had in the
1950's was yellow with black lettering.
Yes, I believe the steel cars were delivered in yellow-orange. I have
seen a 1952 photo of BAR #7278 on the SP in that color scheme. These
cars were very similar to the SP R-40-26. Do you know who built them?


Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> -->> NOTE EMAIL CHANGE <<--
Sterling, Massachusetts


Don Valentine
 

Quoting tim gilbert <tgilbert@...>:

George Hollwedel wrote:

Solves 1/2 the equation,
now when did the color change from blue and white to yellow/orange?
Would a blue and white one have lasted until 1953?
The Red, White and Blue STATE OF MAINE cars were not reefers, but were
boxcars - some of them insulated. The scheme started to be applied in
the early 1950's.

The BAR did not buy their first reefer until 1951. The first series 338
strong in 1/1953, #6000-6999, were ex-MDT reefers and were painted
yellow with black ends. The second series were the #7000-7856 which
were
built by Pacific Car & Foundry - 500 in 1951-52 and another 357 in
1953.
These had yellow sides and ends. The #7000's were the ones rented to
PFE during the summer - the off-season for Aroostook County spuds.

Thanks for bringing me up short here, Tim. It has been a long day but we
are talking reefers, not insulated boxcars. I don't recall any of the reefers
being painted red, white and blue but I do recall some of the earlier wood
sheathed reefers, at least I'm almost certain they were reefers, being painted
white and blue. The upper part of the side was white while the lower part was
blue. Again IIRC the blue band was not quite as wide as the white.

Take care, Don Valentine


Don Valentine
 

Quoting George Hollwedel <georgeloop@...>:

Micro-Trains has released a blue and white, ex MDT, wood reefer this
month
and I'm trying to see how accurate and feasible it is. It is not a red
white and blue boxcar. Micro-Trains is claiming they were painted
yellow
"later". They have put #6006 on the car and it can be seen here:

http://www.micro-trains.com/nr_49550.htm

Any help is appreciated, wish I was in Sacramento!

George Hollwedel
Prototype N Scale Models
georgeloop@...

This is the car I just described in my previous post, George, and it is
accurate until the 1950's.

Take care, Don Valentine


Don Valentine
 

Quoting tim gilbert <tgilbert@...>:


The BAR had a very short-lived blue & white scheme with a large brown
potato. It was an experiment. If any #6000 series reefer had that
scheme, it was repainted shortly thereafter.

What makes you think it was experimental, Tim? It occurrs to me that it
was around too long for that.

Take care, Don Valentine


baltimoreterminal <ktravers@...>
 

Tim,

There is an article in Mainline Modleler 6/96 on p30, along with a
construction article for the ex-MDT cars. It states that the cars
were purchased by the BAR in 1947 and were wood construction. One of
the models shown is blue/white.

John Nehrich's NEB&W Guide IV, B's has fotos in the BAR section of
#6608 and 6648 in orange/yellow with black ends.

Travers, BaltimoreTerminal, 9-30-03



--- In STMFC@..., "George Hollwedel" <georgeloop@a...>
wrote:
Micro-Trains has released a blue and white, ex MDT, wood reefer
this month and I'm trying to see how accurate and feasible it is. It
is not a red white and blue boxcar. Micro-Trains is claiming they
were painted yellow "later". They have put #6006 on the car and it
can be seen here:

http://www.micro-trains.com/nr_49550.htm

Any help is appreciated, wish I was in Sacramento!

George Hollwedel
Prototype N Scale Models
georgeloop@a...

The BAR did not buy their first reefer until 1951. The first
series 338 strong in 1/1953, #6000-6999, were ex-MDT reefers and were
painted yellow with black ends. The second series were the #7000-7856
which were built by Pacific Car & Foundry - 500 in 1951-52 and
another 357 in 1953. These had yellow sides and ends. The #7000's
were the ones rented to PFE during the summer - the off-season for
Aroostook County spuds.

Tim Gilbert


Tim O'Connor
 

Tim Gilbert conjectures

This "Potato" scheme would have been quite exotic which would appeal to
many aficionados of the esoteric including photographers. That more
photos of this scheme have not appeared infers that the few cars painted
in this scheme were either buried somewhere in northern Maine or
repainted quickly.

I have to disagree. It just could be bad luck. SP and SSW painted a
small number of box cars in red and gray paint -- seen many pictures of
them? Until the last 2-3 years, I'd never seen any at all. Yet now I've
seen evidence that they wore those paint schemes for years. Your theory
sounds reasonable except for a major consideration -- why would a
railroad that was not awash in cash, repaint cars "quickly"? What
would be the purpose of that?

Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> -->> NOTE EMAIL CHANGE <<--
Sterling, Massachusetts


tim gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

Tim O'Connor wrote:

Tim Gilbert wrote

The BAR had a very short-lived blue & white scheme with a large brown
potato. It was an experiment. If any #6000 series reefer had that
scheme, it was repainted shortly thereafter.
Tim, may I ask why you say that? I know SP freight cars that numbered
in the hundreds, and ran for years and years, and photos of them are
as rare as diamonds. Just because you haven't seen a photo....
This "Potato" scheme would have been quite exotic which would appeal to
many aficionados of the esoteric including photographers. That more
photos of this scheme have not appeared infers that the few cars painted
in this scheme were either buried somewhere in northern Maine or
repainted quickly.

I believe also that it was the #7000 series which were rented
off-season
to PFE. As far as I know, the only scheme which a #7000 had in the
1950's was yellow with black lettering.
Yes, I believe the steel cars were delivered in yellow-orange. I have
seen a 1952 photo of BAR #7278 on the SP in that color scheme. These
cars were very similar to the SP R-40-26. Do you know who built them?
Pacific Car & Foundry.

Tim Gilbert


tim gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

newrail@... wrote:

Quoting tim gilbert <tgilbert@...>:


The BAR had a very short-lived blue & white scheme with a large
brown
potato. It was an experiment. If any #6000 series reefer had that
scheme, it was repainted shortly thereafter.
What makes you think it was experimental, Tim? It occurrs to me
that it
was around too long for that.
On page 16 of Mourning Sin's Northern New England Color Guide is a July
27th, 1957 photo of #6514 with yellow sides and black ends. The #6000
series was purchased from MDT in 1951 so the earliest these cars could
have been painted was 1951. I have no idea of whether #6514 was painted
by the BAR in yellow & black or the blue & white although I tend to
believe that the blue & white was applied to only a few cars before some
beancounter asked why paint a 25 year old car with an exotic scheme
which would "wear out" quicker than a more generic yellow.

Some chemist told me that the color blue is a bad paint to maintain its
color compared to others. Why I can't tell you since my college
chemistry course designed for beginning and ending chemistry students
was called "alchemy."

Tim Gilbert


charmantas
 

For several years I've been doing photo research (whatever Bob's
Photos has for sale at various shows) on the initial BAR purchase of
MDT reefers. With help from another who has studied BAR annual
reports and employee magazines, I've concluded that the initial cars
were purchased in the summer of 1950, with the last ones arriving in
the spring of 1951. This time period is indicated by the reweigh
dates I've seen on photos of these repainted (blue and white)cars. I
have no information as to all of the cars being initally painted in
the blue and white scheme, and I have no information as to when they
were repainted in the yellow and black scheme. But I've never seen a
photo of a yellow ex-MDT wood car with a reweigh date of 1950 or 1951.

These cars can be "reasonably" recreated in HO scale using a Red
Caboose PFE wood sheathed car and an Athearn 40' flat car fishbelly
underframe for starters. As was mentioned previously, Roger Hinman
did an article on the BAR cars in Mainline Modeler a few years ago.
And Champ Decals did offer decals (from their ALPS printer) for the
blue and white scheme a few years ago.

Charles Harmantas


Roger Hinman <rhinman@...>
 

I don't have my notes in front of me, but the purchase of these , year and quantity, was referenced in one of the Annual Reports, probably 1950 since I agree with your dates. I have nothing to back it up but my assumption is the scheme was changed when the new steel insulated boxcars and reefers started showing up around 1953. The buying of the second hand cars was a temporary move until the new orders came on line. Putting a fancy paint scheme on second hand cars seemed like good marketing.

Ads for these cars from SilverStreak started appearing in RMC in 1951. I have a photo I bought years ago showing these cars in consist going through Berwick , ME in 1947. I've assumed the date on the back of the photo is incorrect

On the California question, there's a table in the Angier BAR book detailing potato shipments in 1949-51. Of the 46,856 cars of potatoes shipped, 5 went to California and 0 to Utah.

The complete scheme on these cars has been debated on previous threads with no definite conclusions reached.


Roger Hinman

On Wednesday, October 1, 2003, at 03:26 PM, charmantas wrote:

For several years I've been doing photo research (whatever Bob's
Photos has for sale at various shows) on the initial BAR purchase of
MDT reefers. With help from another who has studied BAR annual
reports and employee magazines, I've concluded that the initial cars
were purchased in the summer of 1950, with the last ones arriving in
the spring of 1951. This time period is indicated by the reweigh
dates I've seen on photos of these repainted (blue and white)cars. I
have no information as to all of the cars being initally painted in
the blue and white scheme, and I have no information as to when they
were repainted in the yellow and black scheme. But I've never seen a
photo of a yellow ex-MDT wood car with a reweigh date of 1950 or 1951.

These cars can be "reasonably" recreated in HO scale using a Red
Caboose PFE wood sheathed car and an Athearn 40' flat car fishbelly
underframe for starters. As was mentioned previously, Roger Hinman
did an article on the BAR cars in Mainline Modeler a few years ago.
And Champ Decals did offer decals (from their ALPS printer) for the
blue and white scheme a few years ago.

Charles Harmantas


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Roger Hinman <rhinman@...>
 

I found my notes

reference Moody's Transportation for 1952, p1456 "1951 BAR completed rebuilding of 324 second hand refrigerator cars from the MDT corp"


however I also show 342 as the count in one of the equipment registers. Either a type or a miscount in someones records

These cars were numbered in at least five series
60xx,62xx,,65xx,66xx,67xx the only distinguishing feature I've noted to date is the 60xx cars all have dreadnaught ends applied whereas the others just had angle iron reinforcements.

Roger Hinman

On Wednesday, October 1, 2003, at 06:54 PM, Roger Hinman wrote:

I don't have my notes in front of me, but the purchase of these , year
and quantity, was referenced in one of the Annual Reports, probably
1950 since I agree with your dates. I have nothing to back it up but my
assumption is the scheme was changed when the new steel insulated
boxcars and reefers started showing up around 1953. The buying of the
second hand cars was a temporary move until the new orders came on
line. Putting a fancy paint scheme on second hand cars seemed like good
marketing.

Ads for these cars from SilverStreak started appearing in RMC in 1951.
I have a photo I bought years ago showing these cars in consist going
through Berwick , ME in 1947. I've assumed the date on the back of the
photo is incorrect

On the California question, there's a table in the Angier BAR book
detailing potato shipments in 1949-51. Of the 46,856 cars of potatoes
shipped, 5 went to California and 0 to Utah.

The complete scheme on these cars has been debated on previous threads
with no definite conclusions reached.


Roger Hinman





On Wednesday, October 1, 2003, at 03:26 PM, charmantas wrote:

For several years I've been doing photo research (whatever Bob's
Photos has for sale at various shows) on the initial BAR purchase of
MDT reefers. With help from another who has studied BAR annual
reports and employee magazines, I've concluded that the initial cars
were purchased in the summer of 1950, with the last ones arriving in
the spring of 1951. This time period is indicated by the reweigh
dates I've seen on photos of these repainted (blue and white)cars. I
have no information as to all of the cars being initally painted in
the blue and white scheme, and I have no information as to when they
were repainted in the yellow and black scheme. But I've never seen a
photo of a yellow ex-MDT wood car with a reweigh date of 1950 or 1951.

These cars can be "reasonably" recreated in HO scale using a Red
Caboose PFE wood sheathed car and an Athearn 40' flat car fishbelly
underframe for starters. As was mentioned previously, Roger Hinman
did an article on the BAR cars in Mainline Modeler a few years ago.
And Champ Decals did offer decals (from their ALPS printer) for the
blue and white scheme a few years ago.

Charles Harmantas


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---------------------~-->
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