I recently received and have finished reading a reprint copy of
Refrigerator Cars Ice Bunker Cars 1884-1979 by Jordan, Hendrickson, Moore
and hale. It is a great book. The photo reproduction in the reprint may
not be as good as the original, but it is still a must have for those of us
who didn't get the original copy.

Since the book has gotten me all jazzed up on SFRD Reefers I went looking in
the archives, and elsewhere on the internet for appropriate SFRD Reefers
models in HO for 1957. I model a portion of the Erie Mainline between
Jamestown and Meadeville so I need a few dozen SFRD cars for NY98 and other
trains.

From what I found in the archives IM makes a car appropriate for classes
RR-19, RR-23, RR-28. (Steve Sandifer msg 19747, 5-3-03) However a search of
the Intermountain website reveals that no SFRD Reefers are currently
available as kits, and the R-T-R version (Grand canyon Slogan) is sold out.
My dealer does have 2-3 IM R-T-R in the Giant SF herald but they are too
modern for me.

C&BT made kits that could model RR-33, 34, and 43, however these are also
listed as out of production. (Steve Sandifer msg 19747, 5-3-03) Also if I
recall correctly these kits require a lot of upgrading to be on par with
today's kits.

Finally on the Santa Fe Railway Historical & Modeling Society Site I found a
table by Richard Hendrickson that listed a modified Branchline kit as a
possibility for class RR-44. Anyone down this? The Branchline reefer is wood
sided and the RR-44 is steel.love to see a picture.

As for resin kits, I was unable to access the All-time Sunshine list on
Ted's site to see which SFRD kits are still available. The problem is on
my end so if someone could send me the pdf file I would be much appreciated.

The Westerfield classes are too old for my era.

have I missed and readily available SFRD Reefers in HO that would be
appropriate for 1957.

Does anyone know where I could find some IM kits for some reefers either in
schemes appropriate for 1957 or undec. Finally since I do not have a kit to
compare with the photo's in the book, are there any glaring errors in the IM
SFRD cars.

Thanks
Brian J Carlson
Cheektowaga NY

Brian,
There's a Train Quest add the latest RMC (page25) listing RTR models.
Clark Propst

Brian J Carlson wrote:

In a message dated 12/6/2003 7:00:24 PM Central Standard Time,
rhendrickson@... writes:

None of this is good news, but at present there really is no easy way to
model SFRD reefers ca. 1957.

Richard H. Hendrickson

Richard,

What about the early plug door cars that Sunshine did? Off the top of my
head I think Martin offered the Rr 47, 49, 51 & 52's? ( I may be off on one or
two of the class numbers though) I believe that these are still available
from Sunshine.

Tom C

Brian Carlson writes, regarding the modeling of SFRD reefers,

From what I found in the archives IM makes a car appropriate for classes
RR-19, RR-23, RR-28. (Steve Sandifer msg 19747, 5-3-03) However a search of
the Intermountain website reveals that no SFRD Reefers are currently
available as kits, and the R-T-R version (Grand canyon Slogan) is sold out.
My dealer does have 2-3 IM R-T-R in the Giant SF herald but they are too
modern for me.

The InterMountain models (with, at most, minor modifications) are acccurate
representations of classes Rr-19, Rr-23, Rr-25, Rr-27, Rr-28, and Rr-32 as
originally built. Unfortunately, these cars had been modified by 1957 with
reversed ice hatch covers, hatch platforms removed, side sill
reinforcements, and electric fans. Modifications to the IM models to
reflect these changes aren't hard to make, but they add up to quite a bit
of work if you're doing several models. However, that's the only way to
get accurate models. All would have been repainted by 1957 with the later
style slogans and "Ship and Travel..." on the right sides. Fortunately,
Champ's decals for these schemes are complete and correct, including the
right data. I'd get whatever models you can acquire, strip them, modify
them, and paint and letter them yourself.

C&BT made kits that could model RR-33, 34, and 43, however these are also
listed as out of production. (Steve Sandifer msg 19747, 5-3-03) Also if I
recall correctly these kits require a lot of upgrading to be on par with
today's kits.

About all that's usable from the C&BT kits are the bodies themselves, and
even those have some problems, but they're the only models that are even
remotely correct for the Rr-33 and later classes of rebuilt SFRD reefers.
All the detail parts can be replaced, but, again, you're looking at a lot
of work, including painting and lettering the models yourself.

Finally on the Santa Fe Railway Historical & Modeling Society Site I found a
table by Richard Hendrickson that listed a modified Branchline kit as a
possibility for class RR-44. Anyone down this? The Branchline reefer is wood
sided and the RR-44 is steel.love to see a picture.

I'm puzzled here, as no BL reefer model is correct for any SFRD car,
certainly not for an Rr-44, so this has to be a mistake or a misprint.

As for resin kits, I was unable to access the All-time Sunshine list on
Ted's site to see which SFRD kits are still available. The problem is on
my end so if someone could send me the pdf file I would be much appreciated.

The Westerfield classes are too old for my era.

So are the Sunshine kits for Rr-5 through Rr-11 classes, as those cars were
all rebuilt into all steel cars by 1957. But Sunshine's kits for the Rr-21
and Rr-29 classes could still be used, with minor mods, if you can find
them. AFAIK they're out of production but sometimes turn up on the second
hand market.

None of this is good news, but at present there really is no easy way to
model SFRD reefers ca. 1957.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520

Tom Casey writes:

What about the early plug door cars that Sunshine did? Off the top of my
head I think Martin offered the Rr 47, 49, 51 & 52's? ( I may be off on
one or
two of the class numbers though) I believe that these are still available
from Sunshine.

I'd forgotten about those (mostly because they're too new for my own
modeling era) but if, in fact, those are still available then they would a
lot to the modeling possibilities for SFRD reefers ca. 1957.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520

Brian,

I'll go ahead and answer this in my official InterMountain capacity.


I do go through this every other day or so with someone from some or another
list or on the phone so if the following seems curt I apologize in advance (I
really don't mean it to!):


As with all InterMountain cars the SFRD reefers are available as undecorated
kits on an as-needed basis.

When we receive a reasonable number of reservations for kits of a certain
body style we packaged and ship them as kits.

We do indeed sell kits, we simply don't inventory them since they don't move
as fast as assembled product, and the vast majority of dealers don't order
them unless a customer requests them first.

I have yet to figure out exactly the logistics of offering our FUTURE steam era
cars in kit form (we're actively working on two right now), since the grabs and
underbody piping will be wire. Perhaps a "bare bones" kit?????? -- and the
modeler has to provide his own grabs and wire to be bent to shape???? Or
even formed grabs and unformed wire? We're looking into having the formed
wire underbody piping included with the kit. Also, the kit will likley include all
versions of the ends and underframe (no, I won't give the car type away by
describing it in detail!) since if we made each variant available as a kit we'd
end up with three slow moving products instead of one! In other words, the
"kit" will be almost a collection of parts with very general instructions -- not a
detailed breakdown on how to build a particular version of whatever car it is.

I'd be interested in thoughts on this matter, since the members of this list likely
make up the majority of the folks interested in buying our cars in kit form --
remember we offer them as kits as a service to our customers -- we don't
make very much on kits at all and so few sell I am constantly fighting an uphill
battle on this one.

Thanks,

Marty

Perhaps a "bare bones" kit?????? -- and the modeler has to provide his own

grabs and wire to be bent to shape????<
Depending on the size needed wire grabs are readily available from
Westerfield, Tichy, and other sources. This is not a big deal.

We're looking into having the formed wire underbody piping included with

the kit<
I know wire is available from Tichy (in tubes) and probably other
sources so this is not a big deal.

The main place you get gripes is probably instructions which "there
won't be any" I'm assuming. I would plastic bag the sprues and sell that
way. This list can then direct person that need more help than others to
that help.
Now we are down to price. Not sure what would be considered a fair
price for a plastic bag of sprues!
All this is IMHO of course<VBG>.

Jon Miller
AT&SF
For me time has stopped in 1941
Digitrax DCC owner, Chief/Zephyr systems
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS

Marty McGuirk wrote:

When we receive a reasonable number of reservations for
kits of a certain body style we package and ship them
as kits.

We do indeed sell kits, we simply don't inventory them
since they don't move as fast as assembled product, and
the vast majority of dealers don't order them unless a
customer request them first.

Marty, just out of curiosity, what kind of numbers do you
need in hand as far as reservations before you do a run of
a particular kit? My reason for asking is that I could use
several of the undecorated R-40-23's, and these have become
hard to find as of late. Sure, I could put in a reservation
with one the local dealers, but will it be awhile before a
run of these actually comes out?

Shawn Beckert

Marty,
Are you telling us that the only way we are going to see the new FGE
Reefer, is as a RTR model or an Undec kit? How about the older kits
in the line is it going to be the same.

Thanks,
George


--- In STMFC@..., "Marty McGuirk" <mac@i...> wrote:

Brian,

I'll go ahead and answer this in my official InterMountain

capacity.

I do go through this every other day or so with someone from some

or another

list or on the phone so if the following seems curt I apologize in

advance (I

really don't mean it to!):


As with all InterMountain cars the SFRD reefers are available as

undecorated

kits on an as-needed basis.

When we receive a reasonable number of reservations for kits of a

certain

body style we packaged and ship them as kits.

We do indeed sell kits, we simply don't inventory them since they

don't move

as fast as assembled product, and the vast majority of dealers

don't order

them unless a customer requests them first.

I have yet to figure out exactly the logistics of offering our

FUTURE steam era

cars in kit form (we're actively working on two right now), since

the grabs and

underbody piping will be wire. Perhaps a "bare bones" kit?????? --

and the

modeler has to provide his own grabs and wire to be bent to

shape???? Or

even formed grabs and unformed wire? We're looking into having the

formed

wire underbody piping included with the kit. Also, the kit will

likley include all

versions of the ends and underframe (no, I won't give the car type

away by

describing it in detail!) since if we made each variant available

as a kit we'd

end up with three slow moving products instead of one! In other

words, the

"kit" will be almost a collection of parts with very general

instructions -- not a

detailed breakdown on how to build a particular version of

whatever car it is.

I'd be interested in thoughts on this matter, since the members of

this list likely

make up the majority of the folks interested in buying our cars in

kit form --

remember we offer them as kits as a service to our customers -- we

don't

make very much on kits at all and so few sell I am constantly

fighting an uphill

battle on this one.

Thanks,

Marty

--- In STMFC@..., "h81644" <H81644@f...> wrote:

Marty,
Are you telling us that the only way we are going to see the new FGE
Reefer, is as a RTR model or an Undec kit? How about the older kits
in the line is it going to be the same.

Thanks,
George

George,

Who said anything about the FGE reefer??? I sure didn't.

In short, cars that are economically feasible to decorate as kits here in
Colorado we still decorate here and we plan a few new decorated kit runs into
next years' production schedule.

I was asked if it was possible to get undecorated kits and that's the question I
answered.

Marty

Thanks, Marty. I appreciate that you will continue to supply kits.

While many can form their own grabs and underbody piping, if the cost is reasonable, I think having these items both preformed with the kit will, overall, make the kit more saleable. For those who are contemplating a kit for the first time, at least having all the parts in the box, and the tedious job of forming grabs and piping either done or nearly done, takes away some of the apprehension. I think the more the novice kit builder has to do, the more difficult it is to sell the kit. It's a cost/benefit thing, but if an hour or two's work of making grabs and underbody piping can be saved (not the most rewarding aspect of kit building by any stretch of the imagination), many, I think, will be willing to pay you to include them.

Even after one gets past the novice stage, there are still all sorts of kit builders out there. For me, applying the finish and weathering is where I get the enjoyment, not from building the kit. (In general, all kits when built according to the instructions look the same. It's when you add the finish and weathering that they begin to take on a personality, and to me, that's where the challenge is that can be seen and appreciated.) But I do like kits, because weathering certain parts as you go makes a better overall finished product. So, I'd rather pay for preformed grabs and piping to cut down on what to me is just another step of tedium necessary to get to the areas I enjoy.

Ron Hildebrand

Marty, just out of curiosity, what kind of numbers do you
need in hand as far as reservations before you do a run of
a particular kit? My reason for asking is that I could use
several of the undecorated R-40-23's, and these have become
hard to find as of late. Sure, I could put in a reservation
with one the local dealers, but will it be awhile before a
run of these actually comes out?

Shawn Beckert

Shawn,

When we run production on new parts we usually overrun about 50-100 sets
of parts that are put aside for packaging into kits.

So we won't package them up until the dealer orders them.

Currently the R-40-23 undecorated shows "IN STOCK" on our Web site there
is a limited number on the shelf -- we are currently molding a production run
of these cars (which, by the way will be the first time we've done four-digit
numbers on the PFE DH scheme on this car) so there will be plenty of kits
available for the forseeable future.



Marty

Marty,
About a month ago you said that the FGE reefre was about ready to go
except for the brake wheel, you needed a sample of the correct
version. I think someone on this supplied you with that example.

I was asked if it was possible to get undecorated kits and that's

the question I

answered.

And that is what I am asking, are they going to be undecorated kits
and RTR painted and lettered. Or has the FGE Reefer plans been
dropped?


George

--- In STMFC@..., "Marty McGuirk" <mac@i...> wrote:

--- In STMFC@..., "h81644" <H81644@f...> wrote:

Marty,
Are you telling us that the only way we are going to see the new

FGE

Reefer, is as a RTR model or an Undec kit? How about the older

kits

in the line is it going to be the same.

Thanks,
George

George,

Who said anything about the FGE reefer??? I sure didn't.

In short, cars that are economically feasible to decorate as kits

here in

Colorado we still decorate here and we plan a few new decorated

kit runs into

next years' production schedule.

I was asked if it was possible to get undecorated kits and that's

the question I

answered.

Marty

Marty:

I don't care how you do it as long as they're available, as just parts, as kits, instructions or not. Doesn't matter to me.

Regards,
Ted Culotta

Marty,

I feel the same as many others have said here. I am
away from my primary residence and it is the ability
to buy and build kits that has made this separation
bearable for me. I enjoy building both Red Caboose
and your kits but even though I go to a good hobby
shop in the Bay area, trying to find kits on their
shelves (even the blue boxes) is getting hard. I have
watched your products go from kits to R-T-R on their
shelves and I am glad to hear that if I have them
order kits that I can get them from you. I know have
to make sure that I know what is available so I can
place those orders.

Jim Scott
Lompoc, CA.
--- Ted Culotta <tculotta@...> wrote:

Marty:

I don't care how you do it as long as they're
available, as just parts,
as kits, instructions or not. Doesn't matter to me.

Regards,
Ted Culotta

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing.
http://photos.yahoo.com/

Hello Mr. Mc Guirk

Just would like to say I think you're taking the right tack on the
kit vs. RTR issue. I am glad to know that the Intermountain line
is available as kits, even if there is some degree of waiting time
involved. I also think the idea of a bare bones kit is an excellent
one. Why not just the plastic parts and an exploded diagram in a
plastic bag? I'd gladly buy them that way!

Sincerely yours,

Laurance King
<lrkdbn@...>

Laurance,

Thank you for your comments.

I do have one question though. Would you still buy the "bare bones" kit
if I told you the price would be no different from a kit in a box with
a more formal set of instructions?

Marty


On Monday, December 15, 2003, at 08:53 AM, lrkdbn wrote:

Hello Mr. Mc Guirk

  Just would like to say I think you're taking the right tack on the
kit vs. RTR issue. I am glad to know that the Intermountain line
is available as kits, even if there is some degree of waiting time
involved. I also think the idea of a bare bones kit is an excellent
one. Why not just the plastic parts and an exploded diagram in a
plastic bag? I'd gladly buy them that way!

Sincerely yours,

Laurance King
<lrkdbn@...>

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I¹d rather have the box anyway; less chance of breakage in transit. And
what¹s a box cost these days? $0.02 or $0.03?
--
Brian Ehni


From: Marty McGuirk <mac@...>
Reply-To: STMFC@...
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 11:06:14 -0700
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: SFRD Reefers

Laurance,

Thank you for your comments.

I do have one question though. Would you still buy the "bare bones" kit
if I told you the price would be no different from a kit in a box with
a more formal set of instructions?

Marty


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Marty:

I wouldn't. I do not have the knowledge to do a "buck and wing" kit build
nor do I have the resources available either. Besides, there are some out
there, novices at least, that have less experience and knowledge than I do.
Aren't these the people we want to attract to this segment of the hobby
(let's not start a holy war)?

As for my 2-cents, please include the grabs, piping, ladders, appropriate
ends, roof walks, etc. I would hate to spend the money on a kit and not
have the essential items required to build it. If in essence this drives up
the price of a undecorated kit, I wouldn't have a problem with it. I
believe the same would hold true for a semi-kit. By that I mean a decorated
kit with the appropriate parts for other versions or upgrades as required.
If this too raises the price of a kit, not a problem.

Trucks would always be appreciated; at least the most common trucks for the
basic kit. If I would have to replace the trucks at a later date, so be it.
As for couplers, that is a truly personal item and I don't think it should
be part of the kit. I'm a Kadee guy, while others are McHenry and still
others are Accumate. I don't think you would want to include this variety -
makes no sense.

My idea of building a kit is study the instructions (hint) and any other
written material to select the correct prototype from the available parts;
construct the basic kit; paint and decal if required; weather; add final
details supplied (hint). Now a person has a model that they can be proud
of - an I did it!

For what its worth,
Rich Ramik

Brian,

Please let me know where to find the four-color, glossy coated .03
boxes! I'd like to buy a bunch of them. <g>

Marty




On Monday, December 15, 2003, at 12:53 PM, Brian Paul Ehni wrote:

I’d rather have the box anyway; less chance of breakage in transit. And
what’s a box cost these days? $0.02 or $0.03?
--
Brian Ehni


From: Marty McGuirk <mac@...>
Reply-To: STMFC@...
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 11:06:14 -0700
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: SFRD Reefers

Laurance,

Thank you for your comments.

I do have one question though. Would you still buy the "bare bones" kit
if I told you the price would be no different from a kit in a box with
a more formal set of instructions?

Marty


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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