LNE's Black Boxcars


Shawn Beckert
 

Guys,

While we're on the subject of Lehigh & New England
boxcars: a great many years ago, before I became
enlightened <g>, I bought a batch of Champ's LNE
boxcar decals. These were intended (I thought) for
the black LNE boxcars, and I figured placing these
on Athearn's boxcar would yield a quick and easy
addition to my fleet.

I know better now, but the question remains - what HO
scale boxcar is there that these decals would be right
for? The Fallen Flags site has only one image of an LNE
boxcar, and luckily it's in black paint:

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/lne/lne8640ajs.jpg

It's got square corners; is the RC 1937 car right for this?

Thanks,

Shawn Beckert


benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
 

Shawn Beckert wrote:
I know better now, but the question remains - what HO scale boxcar is
there that these decals would be right for? <<snip>> It's got
square corners; is the RC 1937 car right for this?

No. This is one of the very cars that we've been discussing - the
1932 Magor-built boxcars to the Proposed 1923 ARA design rebuilt with
4/4 Dreadnaught ends and diagonal panel roof. The straight side sill
and the side rivet patterns are the dead giveaway that this isn't a
1932 ARA or 1937 AAR boxcar.

As for the Champ decals (Champ HN-70), they're one of their "road
name" sets, which really means they're kind of a catch-all. They
have the Roman reporting marks and numerals for the cars as
originally built, as well as the "Fried Egg" logo and later
billboard "LNE", but they lack the sans-serif reporting marks and car
numbers for both of the later black schemes, as well as any
dimensional data. They're really best for these cars in their first
paint scheme, with dimensional data robbed from a PRR Class X29
boxcar decal set, or you can still use these for the blck car if you
can scrounge up the right numerals for the car number.


Ben Hom


Ted Culotta <tculotta@...>
 

On Feb 26, 2004, at 10:44 AM, benjaminfrank_hom wrote:

Shawn Beckert wrote:
I know better now, but the question remains - what HO scale boxcar is
there that these decals would be right for?  <<snip>>  It's got
square corners; is the RC 1937 car right for this?

No.  This is one of the very cars that we've been discussing - the
1932 Magor-built boxcars to the Proposed 1923 ARA design rebuilt with
4/4 Dreadnaught ends and diagonal panel roof.  The straight side sill
and the side rivet patterns are the dead giveaway that this isn't a
1932 ARA or 1937 AAR boxcar.
Ben:

The LNE's cars were built in 1927 (PSC), 1931 (Magor) and 1934 (Magor).
Unless they put Dreadnaught ends on a car that originally had flat
riveted ends, there should not be any LNE cars with a combination of
Dreadnaught ends and diagonal panel roofs, and if there is one, I would
bet a lot of money that only one of the ends is a Dreadnaught, as it
would be a replacement end. Flat riveted ends should = flat riveted
roofs or replacement diagonal panel roofs and Dreadnaught ends should =
rectangular panel roofs.

Regards,
Ted Culotta


rwitt_2000 <rmwitt@...>
 

Ted Culotta <tculotta@s...> wrote:

The LNE's cars were built in 1927 (PSC), 1931 (Magor) and 1934
(Magor). Unless they put Dreadnaught ends on a car that originally had
flat riveted ends, there should not be any LNE cars with a combination
of Dreadnaught ends and diagonal panel roofs, and if there is one, I
would bet a lot of money that only one of the ends is a Dreadnaught,
as it would be a replacement end. Flat riveted ends should = flat
riveted
roofs or replacement diagonal panel roofs and Dreadnaught ends should
=
rectangular panel roofs.<

I recall that this article in RMC by Jim Hertzog ["Modeling Lehigh &
New England boxcars" Railroad Model Craftsman, January 1990 page 89],
he discussed that some of the L&NE ARA boxcars had their roofs
replaced with diagonal panels roofs. The reason he gave was that the
original panel roofs were prone to leak.

Bob Witt


Richard Hendrickson
 

Bob Witt writes

I recall that this article in RMC by Jim Hertzog ["Modeling Lehigh &
New England boxcars" Railroad Model Craftsman, January 1990 page 89],
he discussed that some of the L&NE ARA boxcars had their roofs
replaced with diagonal panels roofs. The reason he gave was that the
original panel roofs were prone to leak.
No, no, Bob. It was the original Pennsy-style riveted roofs that leaked on
the first two series, which is why all of them got diagonal panel roofs.
The late series cars that got rectangular panel Murphy roofs when built in
1934 kept them until they were retired. Ted has alreaady covered this, and
it's clearly stated as well in the article I did on the X29 clones several
years ago in RMJ.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Bob Witt said:
I recall that this article in RMC by Jim Hertzog ["Modeling Lehigh &
New England boxcars" Railroad Model Craftsman, January 1990 page 89],
he discussed that some of the L&NE ARA boxcars had their roofs
replaced with diagonal panels roofs. The reason he gave was that the
original panel roofs were prone to leak.
Yeah, funny thing about those flat roofs--one old railroader told me that everyone in the country knew they leaked, except the roads that owned 'em.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


boyds1949 <john.king@...>
 

Quick Question.

Does anyone have the range of dates when the flat panel roofs were
replaced?

Would some have been replaced by 1949?

Also, these cars would have the ARA style body, not the X-29. Correct?

John King


benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
 

John King asked:
"Does anyone have the range of dates when the flat panel roofs were
replaced?"
Starting in the late 1940s and through the 1950s as cars were shopped.

"Would some have been replaced by 1949?"
Yes.

"Also, these cars would have the ARA style body, not the X-29.
Correct?"
Yes for the body, no for the dash in X29. ;-)

See Richard Hendrickson's article in the November 2001 Railmodel
Journal for more information and photos. (The caption for Richard's
in-progress model is horribly wrong - it's really an in-progress
model of a PM 82000-series car and should have run in the December
issue.)


Ben Hom


James Harr <bnchmark@...>
 

List:

Wow! This topic certainly has drummed up quite a discussion. My thanks to
all who have contributed. Since I model the Lackawanna's Bangor & Portland
branch ca. mid-50's these cars have been on my want list for a long time. I
have posted a photo (sorry for the poor quality) of a Red Caboose car that I
painted and decaled, but it of course lacks the correct roof. I simply used
the as-built flat panel roof until I create the replacement roof. And
please, it is just a stand-in; the dimensional and capacity data are
incorrect, in fact, the lettering was cobbled together from several
different sources (Champ LNE, Microscale fried egg, various for data). It is
in the photos section in a folder titled "LNE Black ARA Boxcar". In fact,
the Champ block LNE has that "glow-in-the-dark" greenish look about it that
I hoped weathering would cover up; I think it still has that look though.
But it sure looks nice in a cut of cement cars!

I have received great help from some list members and will be using all this
information to create cast resin replacement roofs of several types, not
just for the LNE cars but also for MEC, PM (C&O), Erie, CNJ and others. If
anyone has any additional information they would like to share, such as
which cars had which specific roofs, please let me (well, all of us) know.

To conclude, a clarification about something I mentioned earlier that I
should clear up. I mentioned that

"The cars also had side sills replaced, but that could be modeled with decal
film, I believe."

This should really read as the cars had patch panels added as the lower
portion of the side SHEETS rotted. This is what could be modeled with decal
film, and perhaps a light punching with a pounce wheel for simulated rivet
detail. Some cars did receive a reinforcement to the side sill below the
doors; I will create resin parts to easily add this detail as well.

Thanks for your time and all the great info.

Jim Harr


Ted Culotta <tculotta@...>
 

On Feb 27, 2004, at 8:12 AM, James Harr wrote:

I have received great help from some list members and will be using all this
information to create cast resin replacement roofs of several types, not
just for the LNE cars but also for MEC, PM (C&O), Erie, CNJ and others. If
anyone has any additional information they would like to share, such as
which cars had which specific roofs, please let me (well, all of us) know.

Jim:

I will create a page for you (and others) on the Steam Freight Cars web site that talks about all of these cars, plus others. I have built models of the CNJ, C&O, MEC, N&W (BPa auto), B&M, B&O M-27 with others in progress for the PRR X29 (all three versions), PRR X28A, B&O M-26A and M-26D, LNE and WLE. I will explain how to accurately model all of them, including the cars that cannot be done using the RC kits. I will let you know when the page is up.

Regards,
Ted Culotta


Richard Hendrickson
 

Ben Hom wrote:

See Richard Hendrickson's article in the November 2001 Railmodel
Journal for more information and photos. (The caption for Richard's
in-progress model is horribly wrong - it's really an in-progress
model of a PM 82000-series car and should have run in the December
issue.)
Ben is right, but I'll quickly add that it was Bob Schleicher's mistake,
not mine (I make enough errors as it is without being held accountable for
those of other people).

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


ELDEN GATWOOD <ELDEN.GATWOOD@...>
 

Ted, you are the MAN!

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: Ted Culotta [mailto:tculotta@...]
Sent: Friday, February 27, 2004 8:48 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: LNE's Black Boxcars


On Feb 27, 2004, at 8:12 AM, James Harr wrote:

I have received great help from some list members and will be using
all this
information to create cast resin replacement roofs of several types,
not
just for the LNE cars but also for MEC, PM (C&O), Erie, CNJ and
others. If
anyone has any additional information they would like to share, such as
which cars had which specific roofs, please let me (well, all of us)
know.

Jim:

I will create a page for you (and others) on the Steam Freight Cars web
site that talks about all of these cars, plus others. I have built
models of the CNJ, C&O, MEC, N&W (BPa auto), B&M, B&O M-27 with others
in progress for the PRR X29 (all three versions), PRR X28A, B&O M-26A
and M-26D, LNE and WLE. I will explain how to accurately model all of
them, including the cars that cannot be done using the RC kits. I will
let you know when the page is up.

Regards,
Ted Culotta





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rwitt_2000 <rmwitt@...>
 

Bob Witt wrote ... The reason he gave was that the original panel
roofs were prone to leak.

Richard H. Hendrickson replied ... > No, no, Bob. It was the original
Pennsy-style riveted roofs that leaked on the first two series, which
is why all of them got diagonal panel roofs. The late series cars that
got rectangular panel Murphy roofs when built in 1934 kept them until
they were retired.

Richard,

I guess I used the wrong term. By "panel roof", I did mean the "PRR
style, ARA riveted, flat-panel roof". I wish we had a better term to
describe these roofs.

Suggestions?

Bob Witt


Ted Culotta <tculotta@...>
 

On Feb 27, 2004, at 3:01 PM, rwitt_2000 wrote:

Bob Witt wrote ... The reason he gave was that the original panel
roofs were prone to leak.

Richard H. Hendrickson replied ... > No, no, Bob.  It was the original
Pennsy-style riveted roofs that leaked on the first two series, which
is why all of them got diagonal panel roofs. The late series cars that
got rectangular panel Murphy roofs when built in 1934 kept them until
they were retired. 

Richard,

I guess I used the wrong term.  By "panel roof", I did mean the "PRR
style, ARA riveted, flat-panel roof".  I wish we had a better term to
describe these roofs. 
Bob:

You're confusing me now! I call the "X29" roof a flat riveted roof. A
flat panel roof to me connotes a panel roof without the raised
corrugations in the center - a Murphy rectangular panel roof without
the rectangular panels, if you will. This animal did exist and many of
the early Canadian '37 AAR cars had them. Sylvan makes a casting in HO
for just this purpose.

Regards,
Ted Culotta


Benjamin Frank Hom <b.hom@...>
 

Richard Hendrickson wrote:
...I'll quickly add that it was Bob Schleicher's mistake, not mine (I make enough errors as it is without being held accountable for those of other people).

My apologies to Richard as I certainly didn't mean to imply that it was his mistake. The mistake was entirely the editor's.


Ben Hom


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Ted Culotta wrote:
You're confusing me now! I call the "X29" roof a flat riveted roof. A
flat panel roof to me connotes a panel roof without the raised
corrugations in the center - a Murphy rectangular panel roof without
the rectangular panels, if you will. This animal did exist and many of
the early Canadian '37 AAR cars had them. Sylvan makes a casting in HO
for just this purpose.
Ted is right. Around 1930, the first of these "solid steel," external-carline roofs appeared, without any raised panels in the center of each section. That's what I would call a "flat panel roof" also. But I don't think the PRR style, whether X29 or X37, resembles that at all.
One reason I'm familiar with the "real" flat-panel roof is that SP's auto cars of Classes A-50-9, -10 and -11 had them. They are well shown in my upcoming Volume 3 of _SP Freight Cars_ .

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


rwitt_2000 <rmwitt@...>
 

Anthony Thompson wrote:

Ted is right. Around 1930, the first of these "solid steel,"
external-carline roofs appeared, without any raised panels in the
center of each section. That's what I would call a "flat panel
roof"
also. But I don't think the PRR style, whether X29 or X37,
resembles
that at all.
One reason I'm familiar with the "real" flat-panel roof is
that
SP's auto cars of Classes A-50-9, -10 and -11 had them.
I agree. Maybe I will called them "flat, lapped-seam riveted roofs".
The B&O had a later design on some of their class M-55 box cars.

Bob Witt


Schuyler Larrabee
 

-----Original Message-----
From: rwitt_2000 [mailto:rmwitt@...]
I guess I used the wrong term. By "panel roof",
I did mean
the "PRR style, ARA riveted, flat-panel roof".
I wish we had
a better term to describe these roofs.

Suggestions?
PRRARARFP roofs?

SGL


James Harr <bnchmark@...>
 

Ted:

Thanks so much! I think this will be a huge asset to all students of this
particular (and numerous) type of freight car. If I can assist in any
manner, please let me know.

Jim Harr




Jim:

I will create a page for you (and others) on the Steam Freight Cars web
site that talks about all of these cars, plus others. I have built
models of the CNJ, C&O, MEC, N&W (BPa auto), B&M, B&O M-27 with others
in progress for the PRR X29 (all three versions), PRR X28A, B&O M-26A
and M-26D, LNE and WLE. I will explain how to accurately model all of
them, including the cars that cannot be done using the RC kits. I will
let you know when the page is up.

Regards,
Ted Culotta