Silver or white lettering?


Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Tom Olsen writes:

"Richard, which is correct? White or Silver lettering? Is the color
timeframe specific?"
And:



"Richard is right in regard to the 2" and 1" stenciling. None of the
decal makers supply tank car data in silver."

Approaching these waters very carefully....putting toe in to test temps...

If it were me...and it is since I need many Sinclair cars...I wouldn't worry much about silver and white coloring differences. After a few months in the sun and with tons of Wyoming being blown over it...assuming the car might have made it to Sinclair's facility at...Sinclair, WY...it would be difficult to distinguish silver color from white at any distance of over a few feet....IMO. As Richard is well aware of, squabbles over white and silver colored paint on Santa Fe steam engines are legendary. Some hold that the silver colored paint fades to a white appearance.

Note that I cleverly don't use the term aluminum to indicate color. Aluminum is not a color...although it, of course, has one...or two...or...Aluminum IS the name of a paint [ perhaps several ] and IT has a color. Silver, also like Aluminum, is an element, is also a color [ by definition in the STMFC dictionary ] and is the name of more than one paint.

And, it goes without saying, that the appearance of silver colored paint compared to white would likely depend on other factors at the time of observation...amount of sunlight, angle of same, dryness, and distance to the car. In short...I wouldn't worry.

Of much more concern is the process of getting tank cars to put silver, white or other decals on. Those interested in such need to drop by Prototype Rails in Cocoa Beach, FL...second weekend in Jan.

Mike Brock


Jon Miller <atsf@...>
 

These comments from dim memory but in the early '50s I remember my
father had cans of aluminum paint. I wasted these and we won't go into that
but I do remember at least a third of the can was pigment and probably
powered aluminum. I would think the RRs probably used similar paint. With
the color obtained from powered aluminum (with binder) why would it fade
much? Oxidation?

Jon Miller
AT&SF
For me time has stopped in 1941
Digitrax, Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI user
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Shawn Beckert
 

Mike Brock casually drops the hint:

Of much more concern is the process of getting tank
cars to put silver, white or other decals on. Those
interested in such need to drop by Prototype Rails
in Cocoa Beach, FL...second weekend in Jan.
In the moovy business we call that a teaser/trailer.
Care to tell us more, Mike, or do we have to lay awake
nights wondering about it for the rest of the year?

Shawn Beckert


Richard Hendrickson
 

Listmeister Mike Brock writes:

Approaching these waters very carefully....putting toe in to test temps...

If it were me...and it is since I need many Sinclair cars...I wouldn't
worry much about silver and white coloring differences. After a few months
in the sun and with tons of Wyoming being blown over it...assuming the car
might have made it to Sinclair's facility at...Sinclair, WY...it would be
difficult to distinguish silver color from white at any distance of over a
few feet....IMO. As Richard is well aware of, squabbles over white and
silver colored paint on Santa Fe steam engines are legendary. Some hold
that the silver colored paint fades to a white appearance.
I'm inclined to agree, except that it you're running a bunch of Sinclair
cars, you probably should have at least one model representing a freshly
painted prototype car (as Sinclair seems to have done repainting fairly
often), and then you can't get away with weathering to obscure the
difference.

Note that I cleverly don't use the term aluminum to indicate color.
Aluminum is not a color...although it, of course, has one...or
two...or...Aluminum IS the name of a paint [ perhaps several ] and IT has
a color. Silver, also like Aluminum, is an element, is also a color [ by
definition in the STMFC dictionary ] and is the name of more than one
paint.
Talk about picking nits! Mike, in all of the Santa Fe's color specs (and I
suspect this is true for many, if not most, other RRs as well), the color
in question is identified as "aluminum," referring to the pigment, NOT
"silver." Ed Hawkins may be able to confirm (or correct) this, as he has
access to many AC&F paint color specs. In any case, I follow the practice
of my prototype RR (the Santa Fe having set the REAL standard of the world,
regardless of what the raving SPFs may think - despite its pretentions,
I've always thought that the PRR could claim to be nothing more than the
standard RR of Blair County, PA).

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


KACHINainc@...
 

In a message dated 5/13/04 5:32:33 PM, hawk0621@sbcglobal.net writes:

<< I don't recall seeing the term "silver"
used, but I've learned a long time ago to never say never.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins >>

Ed--

Agree. Never heard the paint term "silver" used anywhere.
Do recall that CBQ-C&S-FWD shop folks spoke of "painting trucks silver" but
it was totally unofficial.
Richard Hendrickson's (as well as mine) world standard railway---Santa Fe all
the way--used asluminum paint.
Nuff said.

A. Dean Hasle


KACHINainc@...
 

Dave-

Aluminum corrodes in the atmosphere and a film forms on the surface -- that's
why it looks dirty white/gray.

Paint utilizing aluminum powder would not easilu "corrode" and form such a
film because it is wrapped in a carrier/vehicle material that protects it -- so
it can (CAN) retain its glimmer.
A. Dean Hale


Dave Nelson <muskoka@...>
 

I've got some unpolished aluminum tubes on hand, some new, some exposed to
10+ years of weather (they're chimes, new and old). None of it is/was
polished metal... just ordinary tubes with a bit of feel to the surface. If
the paint pigment under discussion was aluminum AND that pigment gave the
impression of aluminum metal (as one might suppose) AND it was applied for
use outdoors one might conclude it could look a bit like the stuff I have on
hand... which to my eye looks very like a dirty white/light gray and not
very much like the surface color of aluminum foil... or anything else I
might call silver FWIW.

Dave Nelson


ajfergusonca <ajferguson@...>
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@o...>
wrote:
Listmeister Mike Brock writes:
If it were me...and it is since I need many Sinclair cars...I
wouldn't
worry much about silver and white coloring differences. After a
few months
in the sun and with tons of Wyoming being blown over it...assuming
the car
might have made it to Sinclair's facility at...Sinclair, WY...it
would be
difficult to distinguish silver color from white at any distance
of over a
few feet....IMO. > I'm inclined to agree, except that it you're
running a bunch of Sinclair
cars, you probably should have at least one model representing a
freshly
painted prototype car
It appears that we can agree to disagree. My learned fellow listers
seem to agree that Sinclair and many other RRs used aluminum paint
that was silver in colour. Aluminum is a very white metal. Champ
printed white decals for Sinclair tank cars and won't reprint ANY
decals which they have copyright for. I don't want to get in the
business of reprinting Champ decals.
Rather than talk, let's do. An ALPS silver is about as close to the
fresh paint colour as we are going to get. If someone can scan the
Champ set I will convert the scan to vector (retype the small
lettering) and print a few sets on my ALPS in silver. I won't ask for
money but the said few people will own me a favour in return.
Richard, and a few others I already owe. It will not be a commercial
set with instructions etc. You can use the Champ set for that. It
will also have any faults that the Champ set has. Contact me off list
to further this discussion at:
ajfergus@mts.net

Allen Ferguson


Ed Hawkins
 

On Thursday, May 13, 2004, at 10:13 AM, Richard Hendrickson wrote:

<SNIP>
Talk about picking nits! Mike, in all of the Santa Fe's color specs (and I
suspect this is true for many, if not most, other RRs as well), the color
in question is identified as "aluminum," referring to the pigment, NOT
"silver." Ed Hawkins may be able to confirm (or correct) this, as he has
access to many AC&F paint color specs. In any case, I follow the practice
of my prototype RR (the Santa Fe having set the REAL standard of the world,
regardless of what the raving SPFs may think - despite its pretentions,
I've always thought that the PRR could claim to be nothing more than the
standard RR of Blair County, PA).
Richard,
In going through about one thousand (or so) AC&F bills of materials for tank cars built from 1931 to 1952, I found numerous examples of "aluminum" paint. In many cases the "paint" was actually a mixture of an aluminum powder (Baer's) with an oil base. In other cases the BOM's specify such paint as "Long's Aluminum Paint" that I believe was available ready-mixed in cans. I don't recall seeing the term "silver" used, but I've learned a long time ago to never say never.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Ed Hawkins wrote:
In going through about one thousand (or so) AC&F bills of materials for
tank cars built from 1931 to 1952, I found numerous examples of
"aluminum" paint. In many cases the "paint" was actually a mixture of
an aluminum powder (Baer's) with an oil base. In other cases the BOM's
specify such paint as "Long's Aluminum Paint" that I believe was
available ready-mixed in cans. I don't recall seeing the term "silver"
used, but I've learned a long time ago to never say never.
Talk to an artist, and you will find they understand the color "silver" and never heard of "aluminum." Of course freight car paints used aluminum metal pigment, and for that matter "aluminum bronze" paint used that metal pigment (a copper alloy), but no paint I ever heard of used silver metal pigment. So we can call the color "silver" and we all know what that refers to; and if we're formulating paint, we better stick (pun intended) to aluminum.
BTW, there were railroads which lettered passenger locomotives with silver foil, then varnished it to protect against corrosion. But that's not silver paint.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Shawn Beckert says:
"Mike Brock casually drops the hint:

> Of much more concern is the process of getting tank
> cars to put silver, white or other decals on. Those
> interested in such need to drop by Prototype Rails
> in Cocoa Beach, FL...second weekend in Jan.

Care to tell us more, Mike, or do we have to lay awake
nights wondering about it for the rest of the year?"
Simply get off your lazy duff and venture down to Cocoa Beach on the second weekend in Jan.

Actually, I'll give everyone a heads up long before then.

Mike Brock


Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Richard Hendrickson notes:

Talk about picking nits! Mike, in all of the Santa Fe's color specs (and I
suspect this is true for many, if not most, other RRs as well), the color
in question is identified as "aluminum," referring to the pigment, NOT
"silver."

I have to confess that I wrote what I did with a certain degree of amusement because this issue has been behind a long standing "disagreement" about color and paint name between Myself and Steve Orth on one side and Dick Harley on the other. The whole issue is the fault of some poor guy in Japan who wrote Kalmbach asking them when UP began painting its trucks on passenger cars silver. The guy wasn't the least bit concerned about what the paint's name was nor its content...he wasn't planning to use it to paint his models. He...apparently like me...had a screen enclosure made of aluminum and knew those damned trucks weren't the dull grey color of our screen enclosures but he knew that the color of silver by definition is a bright lustrous color and those damned trucks looked like silver. Hence, the question to Kalmbach who regretfully forwarded it to me who regretfully put it out on the UP modeler group. Now...before anyone gets into this, we aren't going to destroy the STMFC with lengthy discussions about this subject...and I penalize myself 15 yds for bringing it up...although I admit I did enjoy doing it. To finish, I should note that the UP paint standard #22 does not refer to color but to paint name. I'll also note that the late Terry Metcalfe noted that UP's paint Metallic #11 [ used on UP frt cars prior to 1937 ] was a reddish brown color. If you asked anyone unfamilar with UP paint colors [ and some that were familiar ] what metallic #11 looked like, I would submit that most would say...grey.

Richard continues with:

"In any case, I follow the practice
of my prototype RR (the Santa Fe having set the REAL standard of the world,
regardless of what the raving SPFs may think - despite its pretentions,
I've always thought that the PRR could claim to be nothing more than the
standard RR of Blair County, PA)."

Standing back and giving plenty of room...

Mike Brock


Steven Orth
 

MIke said:

Standing back and giving plenty of room...<<
Mike,

You knew better than to bring this up...... You must have been bored.

Steve Orth


Richard Hendrickson
 

Shawn Beckert says:
"Mike Brock casually drops the hint:

> Of much more concern is the process of getting tank
> cars to put silver, white or other decals on. Those
> interested in such need to drop by Prototype Rails
> in Cocoa Beach, FL...second weekend in Jan.

Care to tell us more, Mike, or do we have to lay awake
nights wondering about it for the rest of the year?"
Simply get off your lazy duff and venture down to Cocoa Beach on the
second weekend in Jan.

Actually, I'll give everyone a heads up long before then.
Mike, there's a very strong possibility that one of the major manufacturers
of injection molded styrene freight cars may soon commit to doing Standard
Tank Car Co. tank cars. As I am the chief consultant on this project, I'll
be the first to know if they decide to go ahead with this, and I'll let you
know right away. In the meantime, Jon would be well advised to devote his
time and efforts to making more Harriman head end cars and hold off on
further work towards resin STC models.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


Dave Nelson <muskoka@...>
 

I was looking at one of the chimes this morning -- 2.5" tube, about 20' feet
away -- and noticed the most silver/metalic qualities in color were those
closest to 90 degrees from my line of sight. Straight on was light gray.
So that got me wondering if the visual quality of metals and/or metal hue'd
paints is largely due to reflective qualitites and less to the actual color.
And that reminded me of the difficulty Pantone had in formulating a standard
"color" for metalics as well as the difficulty in obtaining good RGB values
for use in computer presentations of same... cuz when 256 cubed numbers of
color is too few you know you're dealing with something a bit out of the
ordinary.

Dave Nelson

-----Original Message-----
From: KACHINainc@aol.com [mailto:KACHINainc@aol.com]

Dave-

Aluminum corrodes in the atmosphere and a film forms on the surface --
that's
why it looks dirty white/gray.

Paint utilizing aluminum powder would not easilu "corrode" and form such a
film because it is wrapped in a carrier/vehicle material that protects it --
so
it can (CAN) retain its glimmer.
A. Dean Hale


Richard Hendrickson
 

Al FXerguson writes:

Rather than talk, let's do. An ALPS silver is about as close to the
fresh paint colour as we are going to get. If someone can scan the
Champ set I will convert the scan to vector (retype the small
lettering) and print a few sets on my ALPS in silver. I won't ask for
money but the said few people will own me a favour in return.
Richard, and a few others I already owe. It will not be a commercial
set with instructions etc. You can use the Champ set for that. It
will also have any faults that the Champ set has. Contact me off list
to further this discussion at:
ajfergus@mts.net
Personally, I can't used any Sinclair decals; Southern California was one
of the few areas in the US where Sinclair tank cars never (we,, hardly
ever) turned up. However, I have many photos of Sinclair cars and will be
happy to assist Al in his generous offer by supplying the details of the
small lettering for several different car types, if enough list subscribers
are interested.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


Kathe Robin <kathe@...>
 

Richard and Al:

Please count me in for at least 10 sets of Sinclair decals

Thanks,

Max
-----------------------------------------------------
email: m_robin@cheatriver.com

smail: Max S. Robin, P.E.
Cheat River Engineering Inc.
23 Richwood Place / P. O. Box 289
Denville, NJ 07834 - 0289

voice: 973-627-5895 (Home: 7:30 AM - 10:30 PM EDT)
973-627-5460 (Business: 8:00 AM - 10:30 PM EDT)
973-945-5007 (Cellular: 7:00 AM - MidNight EDT)
-----------------------------------------------------


DRGW482@...
 

In a message dated 5/14/2004 11:12:54 AM Central Daylight Time,
muskoka@comcast.net writes:
Paint utilizing aluminum powder would not easilu "corrode" and form such a
film because it is wrapped in a carrier/vehicle material that protects it --
so
it can (CAN) retain its glimmer.
A. Dean Hale
Now, you could also argue, that aluminum flakes or pigment in a paint has
different reflective properties as an aluminum sheet. And flakes do "glimmer"
less than a cast or machined or polished aluminum block.

FineScale Modeller had a avery nice article about 4 years ago about creating
different levels of "shine" and weathering on model aircraft. The gentleman
used the metallizer paint, which unfortunately may not be available anymore. He
managed to use different levels of buffing and treatment to simulate the
varying degrees of discoloration and aging on an airplane. On the main surfaces,
the hot zones near the exhaust, crud in the underframe, etc.
So rather than to discuss the "right formula" it would be IMHO better to
determine what is the best technique to represent the effect of a new vs. old car,
as discussed to some degree here.

Anyone tried to paint a "silver" tank car with metallizer paint? And match
the "dullness"?

The topic of truck/body color has obviously more applications in the
Passenger car arena... I have plated passenger cars and "silver" plastic cars. Neither
one looks right. So there is work to do. Another topic for another list...

Martin


Paul Hillman
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, DRGW482@a... wrote:

Passenger car arena... I have plated passenger cars and "silver"
plastic cars. Neither
one looks right. So there is work to do. Another topic for another
list...

Martin
*********************************************************************
A good list for painting is the Yahoo Group, "Painting Model Trains
and Buildings". (If not already known by y'all.)

Paul Hillman