C&I Hoppers Getting around -- CV Local Freight


Marty McGuirk <mac@...>
 

Garth,

Yes, apparently these guys did "Get around" a bit, more so than the size of the fleet or geographic location would lead one to believe at first (Tim G's excellent analysis notwithstanding . . .<g>). It certainly does away with the old modeler "rule of thumb" of 50% home road, 25% primary connecting road, 10% "secondary" connecting road etc . . . . a rule that never made sense to me, but which I heard quoted at a clinic at our local club a few months back as being a "pretty good" way to determine the make up of a car fleet.

Back to the C&I hopper -- The long and short of it is I was going to sell, give away, or otherwise pitch the Sunshine mini-kit to make a C&I hopper from the Atlas model. Now I'm going to build the car, and even managed to find the Atlas hopper I need as a raw material this last weekend. If the weather is as bad this weekend as it is today I'm looking forward to building this thing as I listen to the Pats game on Sunday -- best thing in the world is working on a model when the Pats are winning . . . .

Now, if I could only figure out why a Monon hopper was in another CV freight . . . . and that L&N gon really has me puzzled. L&N had scads of these things, but there weren't any steel mills anywhere near the CV.

Marty

On Thursday, September 30, 2004, at 09:46 AM, Garth Groff wrote:


Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

Marty McGuirk wrote:

Garth,

Yes, apparently these guys did "Get around" a bit, more so than the
size of the fleet or geographic location would lead one to believe at
first (Tim G's excellent analysis notwithstanding . . .<g>). It
certainly does away with the old modeler "rule of thumb" of 50% home
road, 25% primary connecting road, 10% "secondary" connecting road etc
. . . . a rule that never made sense to me, but which I heard quoted at
a clinic at our local club a few months back as being a "pretty good"
way to determine the make up of a car fleet.

Back to the C&I hopper -- The long and short of it is I was going to
sell, give away, or otherwise pitch the Sunshine mini-kit to make a C&I
hopper from the Atlas model. Now I'm going to build the car, and even
managed to find the Atlas hopper I need as a raw material this last
weekend. If the weather is as bad this weekend as it is today I'm
looking forward to building this thing as I listen to the Pats game on
Sunday -- best thing in the world is working on a model when the Pats
are winning . . . .

Now, if I could only figure out why a Monon hopper was in another CV
freight . . . . and that L&N gon really has me puzzled. L&N had scads
of these things, but there weren't any steel mills anywhere near the CV.
Marty,

In any analysis of foreign cars on line, the first cut is type of cars, and then ownership.

Boxcars and General Service Boxcars were the only car types in the 1945-55 era whose numbers on any foreign road correlated quite well with the percentage of cars that foreign road owned of the national boxcar or general service flat car fleet. There were two reasons for this correlation: - one, the variety of commodities which could be reloaded onto the empty car which decreased the percent of empty car miles to total during a year; and two, the shortages of both types of cars in much of the ten year period.

Hoppers, however, were generally not reloaded. Instead, they returned to the mines usually empty. Thus, their distribution geographically was restricted in large part by who and where was the consignee located. Thus, N&W hoppers going over Sherman Hill can be accounted for to the extent that consignees located west of the Hill ordered Pocahontas Coal from the N&W. When emptied, they would return on the reverse route - although, the UP did load them with Company Coal which was somewhat in violation of the ICC's Car Service Bureau C-411 order which required all hoppers of the C&O, N&W, VGN & L&N be returned home empty.

Empty Hoppers of other roads could be lumped together on a yard track, and then set for loading at a mine. These "leakers" as Tim O'Connor coined them were particularly prevalent in Anthracite loading. A MONON hopper on the CV was most likely a "leaker" unless some coal dealer in New England ordered specifically a load of Bituminous from the southern Indiana coal fields.

Tim Gilbert

PS - "Inchworm." No doubt the reference is from Pavlucik's THE NEW HAVEN RR - A FOND LOOK BACK. Indeed, on page 78, that little guy may be "moi" at age at almost 6. My father would have been the supervisor.


Thomas Baker
 

Tim, your analysis of hopper car interchange fits pretty well with what I have been able to find out about hoppers used by the Chicago Great Western for loading ore from the open-pit mines near Ostrander in southern Minnesota. The CGW hardly ever used ore jennies. Instead, the company used its own hoppers as well as hoppers from foreign roads. By the Mid-Fifties it was anyone's guess whose hoppers would show up at McIntire, Iowa. I have seen photos of C&I, C&EI, MONON (composite types), WABASH, LV, GN, NP, NYC, and many other lines. As of yet no photos of N&W hoppers in southern Minnesota have surfaced. That might be because N&W hoppers operated on a tightly controlled movement from mine to ship and never wandered much off line.

Tom

________________________________


armprem
 

Marty,I found the same thing with Berwind on the Rutland even a CNW,but
rarely N&W or C&O.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Marty McGuirk" <mac@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 11:52 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] C&I Hoppers Getting around -- CV Local Freight



Garth,

Yes, apparently these guys did "Get around" a bit, more so than the
size of the fleet or geographic location would lead one to believe at
first (Tim G's excellent analysis notwithstanding . . .<g>). It
certainly does away with the old modeler "rule of thumb" of 50% home
road, 25% primary connecting road, 10% "secondary" connecting road etc
. . . . a rule that never made sense to me, but which I heard quoted at
a clinic at our local club a few months back as being a "pretty good"
way to determine the make up of a car fleet.

Back to the C&I hopper -- The long and short of it is I was going to
sell, give away, or otherwise pitch the Sunshine mini-kit to make a C&I
hopper from the Atlas model. Now I'm going to build the car, and even
managed to find the Atlas hopper I need as a raw material this last
weekend. If the weather is as bad this weekend as it is today I'm
looking forward to building this thing as I listen to the Pats game on
Sunday -- best thing in the world is working on a model when the Pats
are winning . . . .

Now, if I could only figure out why a Monon hopper was in another CV
freight . . . . and that L&N gon really has me puzzled. L&N had scads
of these things, but there weren't any steel mills anywhere near the CV.

Marty

On Thursday, September 30, 2004, at 09:46 AM, Garth Groff wrote:





Yahoo! Groups Links







Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

Armand Premo wrote:

Marty,I found the same thing with Berwind on the Rutland even a CNW,but
rarely N&W or C&O.
Armand,

On a account of the C-411 order, for a N&W, C&O, VGN or L&N hopper to be on the Rutland meant that the car had to be loaded with coal from its home road and routed via an all-rail route. Your statement infers that there were no such customers (or, if there any, very few) ordering coal mined on the N&W and C&O served by the Rutland.

Some customers on the Rutland may have received Pocahontas Coal, but the routing was rail to the Hampton Roads, and then by ship to either New York, Albany, Boston or another New England port where it would be transshipped into a hopper owned by either a home road in the port. This is the reason that both the B&M and New Haven owned hoppers.

Meanwhile, I would consider a BERWIND hopper on the Rutland would be "normal," but the C&NW hopper a "leaker."

Tim Gilbert


Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

Thomas Baker wrote:

Tim, your analysis of hopper car interchange fits pretty well with what I have been able to find out about hoppers used by the Chicago Great Western for loading ore from the open-pit mines near Ostrander in southern Minnesota. The CGW hardly ever used ore jennies. Instead, the company used its own hoppers as well as hoppers from foreign roads. By the Mid-Fifties it was anyone's guess whose hoppers would show up at McIntire, Iowa. I have seen photos of C&I, C&EI, MONON (composite types), WABASH, LV, GN, NP, NYC, and many other lines. As of yet no photos of N&W hoppers in southern Minnesota have surfaced. That might be because N&W hoppers operated on a tightly controlled movement from mine to ship and never wandered much off line.
Tom,

1) I would assume that the C&I, C&EI, MONON, WAB, NP and NYC hoppers arrived on the CGW with coal mined in the southern Indiana and Illinois soft coal belts. Thus, CGW's reloading them with ore made sense to the degree they could reduce the amount of non-revenue producing empty car miles.
2) I don't know whether the LV carried anthracite to a dealer on the CGW or was a "leaker" with southern IN or IL bituminous; still, the reloading with ore reduced empty car miles.
3) More than quite a few N&W hoppers did wander off-line, but they could not be loaded on the CGW without violating Car Service Bureau's Order C-411. In 1956, 33,607 (76.3%) of the total daily average of freight cars on N&W (44,051 cars) were home road owned. On 12/31/1956, the total number of open top hoppers that the N&W was 44,991 which was 101.0% of the total cars on line (44,051). This meant that at least 11,384 of N&W's hoppers were off-line (44,991 hoppers owned less 36,607 N&W cars at home). The N&W also had 9,911 boxcars, 276 flat cars, 296 stock cars, 4,388 gondolas, 749 covered hoppers , 443 racks and 48 "other types" of which some of them were at home. In all, the N&W owned 60,302 cars on 12/31/1956 which was 136.9% of the total number of cars on line.

Most roads owned less cars than were on their lines. Privately owned reefers and tank cars was the prime reason for this. The N&W, however, was an exception. Most of the reason for this exception was due to the inability of the N&W to have a supply of empty hoppers at the mineheads without the enforcement of Car Order C-411. Compared to Boxcars, Hoppers were somewhat one-dimensional in the variety of commodities they could carry, and there was not much demand for ore at the N&W's mines.

Hope this helps, Tim Gilbert


Tim O'Connor
 

Tim Gilbert wrote

Some customers on the Rutland may have received Pocahontas Coal,
but the routing was rail to the Hampton Roads, and then by ship to
either New York, Albany, Boston or another New England port where
it would be transshipped into a hopper owned by either a home road
in the port. This is the reason that both the B&M and New Haven
owned hoppers.
Tim, what kind of facilities existed (and where) in New England for
transloading of coal from ships to rail? I'm just curious. I know
that even today there is some bulk oil reloading into rail cars from
barges, as well as cement transloading.

New England could receive West Virginia coal directly via the New
York Central's intrusion into C&O territory... that is probably
another reason why C&O cars were so rare in New England. And the
N&W too, for the same reason. Not that the N&W needed the extra
business!


Tim O'Connor
 

I have seen photos of C&I, C&EI, MONON (composite types), WABASH,
LV, GN, NP, NYC, and many other lines. As of yet no photos of N&W
hoppers in southern Minnesota have surfaced. That might be because
N&W hoppers operated on a tightly controlled movement from mine to
ship and never wandered much off line.
More likely it has something to do with the grade of coal mined
along the N&W... N&W cars definitely did go off line, especially to
customers requiring high grade metallurgical coal. Along the lines
of what you wrote above, I have seen pictures of C&O hoppers in Iowa
and Reading hoppers in Wisconsin. And yes, an N&W hopper in Montana
on the Milwaukee Road...

Like the C&O, the N&W had both huge eastbound and westbound volumes
of coal. It didn't all go down to Norfolk! In West Virginia along
either road it was (and is) common for loaded coal trains to pass
in opposite directions.

Tim O'Connor


Tim O'Connor
 

... and that L&N gon really has me puzzled. L&N had scads of these
things, but there weren't any steel mills anywhere near the CV.
Marty, perhaps some consumer in New England used pig iron? Billets?
Much iron/steel was shipped in intermediate forms to consumers who
only had to heat or roll it into another form. Did the CV serve
any foundries?

Another possibility is utility poles. Nice, straight poles made of
Southern pine? Once the car was "snagged" off line, it may spend a
little time wandering before going back home. I recall Schuyler
reported seeing an Erie gondola that got snagged by the B&M and
kept cycling back and forth from a scrap dealer on the B&M to
somewhere else, and back again.


James D Thompson <jaydeet@...>
 

As of yet no photos of N&W hoppers in southern Minnesota have surfaced.
Not N&W, but CGW wrecked a pair of VGN class H-6 hoppers on 5-4-31.

David Thompson


Richard Townsend
 

Searsport, Maine for one, with a big transshipment facility. It is still there and just improved. See http://www.maineports.com/water_searsport.html

"cf5250" <timboconnor@...> wrote:


Tim, what kind of facilities existed (and where) in New England for
transloading of coal from ships to rail? I'm just curious. I know
that even today there is some bulk oil reloading into rail cars from
barges, as well as cement transloading.

New England could receive West Virginia coal directly via the New
York Central's intrusion into C&O territory... that is probably
another reason why C&O cars were so rare in New England. And the
N&W too, for the same reason. Not that the N&W needed the extra
business!



--
Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, Oregon


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Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

cf5250 wrote:

Tim Gilbert wrote

Some customers on the Rutland may have received Pocahontas Coal,
but the routing was rail to the Hampton Roads, and then by ship to
either New York, Albany, Boston or another New England port where
it would be transshipped into a hopper owned by either a home road
in the port. This is the reason that both the B&M and New Haven
owned hoppers.
Tim, what kind of facilities existed (and where) in New England for
transloading of coal from ships to rail? I'm just curious. I know
that even today there is some bulk oil reloading into rail cars from
barges, as well as cement transloading.

New England could receive West Virginia coal directly via the New
York Central's intrusion into C&O territory... that is probably
another reason why C&O cars were so rare in New England. And the
N&W too, for the same reason. Not that the N&W needed the extra
business!
Tim,

Perhaps the largest receiver of coal via tidewater was the EF&G's Gas Works in Everett. No coal, however, was transshipped there. Rather, coke was a byproduct of the process, and that was shipped via the B&A and B&M to, primarily, New England Coal & Coke outlets throughout New England. Prince's NORFOLK & WESTERN has some 1945 photos of the EF&G.

A typical coal facility in New England would be quite similar to Sheepscot's kit of the Cat's Head Pier. The Mystic Terminal had at least three of these, albeit larger, to transship coal. Most of the coal was unloaded and carried by either a tram or a bridge to piles from where the coal was loaded into coal cars - B&M did not own their first hoppers until 1929; drop bottom gons were used instead.

Principal New England Coal Ports were in New Haven, Allyn Point, Providence, New Bedford, Boston, Portsmouth, Cape Porpoise, Portland and Searsport. Other ports receiving coal, mostly from "schooner barges," in Cos Cob, Bridgeport, Hartford, Stonington, Martha's Vineyard, Plymouth, Lynn, Gloucester, Newburyport, Haverhill on the Merrimac, and probably others.

In the 1920's, more than half of the coal including both anthracite and bituminous arriving in New England came from Tidewater either from New York Bay, Philadelphia, the Hampton Roads and Baltimore. With the improvements in freight service made in the 1920's, all of the anthracite except some for the southern New England (south of Cape Cod) ports had all-rail routings by 1940. The only bituminous arriving in New England via tidewater was from the Hampton Roads in the late 1930's. During WW II because of the U-boat threat and the shortage of shipping (the colliers had been diverted to carrying coal overseas), much of the bituminous coal from the Pocahontas fields in southern West Virginia was brought to the Jersey side of the Hudson where it was transshipped into barges and snuck up through Long Island Sound & the Cape Cod Canal. All-rail routing from the Pocahontas fields to New England would have meant a 21 day round trip (vs. the 14 day RT to NJ) which would have stretched the supply of hoppers considerably. Barges were used to reduce the possibility of a hopper shortage.

After WW II, colliers returned to the Hampton Roads - New England trade with the SEAM class colliers built on spec by the Federal Maritime Commission. Today, the Boston Edison plant receives coal via tidewater although the rail connection is not used.

Hope this helps answer your question, Tim Gilbert


Benjamin Hom <b.hom@...>
 

Marty McGuirk wrote:
"It certainly does away with the old modeler "rule of thumb" of 50% home
road, 25% primary connecting road, 10% "secondary" connecting road etc
. . . . a rule that never made sense to me, but which I heard quoted at
a clinic at our local club a few months back as being a "pretty good"
way to determine the make up of a car fleet."


Another one of those bloody modeler's myths that just won't die...

". . . and that L&N gon really has me puzzled. L&N had scads
of these things, but there weren't any steel mills anywhere near the CV."

It could have been hauling coal, which they mostly did on the L&N.


Ben Hom


James D Thompson <jaydeet@...>
 

B&M did not own their first hoppers until 1929; drop bottom gons were
used instead.
The erstwhile 1905 D&H order to SSC for Seley derivatives that became
B&M 5900-5999 would qualify as hoppers. That one batch of 100 cars did
pale next to the large gondola fleet that did most of the coal relay work
before the steel quads were delivered.

One related question: how long did B&M hang on to the steel twin hoppers
(7000-7099) they bought from C&O in 1935, and did B&M do any brake or
truck upgrades to them?

David Thompson


Norman+Laraine Larkin <lono@...>
 

Cranes like the three in the picture of Searsport dotted the New England coast up until the mid-late 50s. There were coal wharfs in East Boston, Chelsea, I believe Salem, MA, Portland, ME, et.al..I'm sure there were more. Sheepscott Models made a wharf scene that included a version of these cranes. Many were steam driven right up to the end. By the way, The Mystic Iron Blast Furnace in Everett, MA had several consecutive 5-year, sole source contracts with most New England foundries to supply pig iron up into the late 50s. Not to say other pig iron wasn't shipped up this way. But they shipped in any kind of gondola they could get their hands on.
Norm Larkin

----- Original Message -----
From: richtownsend@...
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 8:25 PM
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: C&I Hoppers Getting around -- CV Local Freight


Searsport, Maine for one, with a big transshipment facility. It is still there and just improved. See http://www.maineports.com/water_searsport.html

"cf5250" <timboconnor@...> wrote:
>
>Tim, what kind of facilities existed (and where) in New England for
>transloading of coal from ships to rail? I'm just curious. I know
>that even today there is some bulk oil reloading into rail cars from
>barges, as well as cement transloading.
>
>New England could receive West Virginia coal directly via the New
>York Central's intrusion into C&O territory... that is probably
>another reason why C&O cars were so rare in New England. And the
>N&W too, for the same reason. Not that the N&W needed the extra
>business!
>
>
>
>


--
Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, Oregon


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Schuyler Larrabee
 

-----Original Message-----
From: Marty McGuirk
best thing in the world is working on a model
when the Pats are winning . . . .
Built a lot of models lately, huh?

8^)

SGL


Schuyler Larrabee
 

Right, Norm, I can confirm that Salem location.
The spur off the Eastern (B&M) main was north of
the junction, and went (almost invisibly) through
a cut and under a bridge on Rte 1A to the dock,
not far from where the NPS has the "historic
dock." In fact, that may be THE dock, or wharf I
guess it should be. There were (maybe are) photos
at the PEM (the museum up in Salem which as
successfully rebranded itself as "PEM" in envy of
the MFA, so much so that I can't recall its proper
name!).

SGL

-----Original Message-----
From: Norman+Laraine Larkin
[mailto:lono@...]
Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 11:33 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: C&I Hoppers Getting
around -- CV
Local Freight

Cranes like the three in the picture of
Searsport dotted the
New England coast up until the mid-late 50s.
There were coal
wharfs in East Boston, Chelsea, I believe Salem,
MA,
Portland, ME, et.al..I'm sure there were more.
Sheepscott
Models made a wharf scene that included a
version of these
cranes. Many were steam driven right up to the
end. By the
way, The Mystic Iron Blast Furnace in Everett,
MA had several
consecutive 5-year, sole source contracts with
most New
England foundries to supply pig iron up into the
late 50s.
Not to say other pig iron wasn't shipped up this
way. But
they shipped in any kind of gondola they could
get their hands on.
Norm Larkin
----- Original Message -----
From: richtownsend@...
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 8:25 PM
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: C&I Hoppers Getting
around -- CV
Local Freight


Searsport, Maine for one, with a big
transshipment
facility. It is still there and just improved.
See
http://www.maineports.com/water_searsport.html

"cf5250" <timboconnor@...> wrote:
>
>Tim, what kind of facilities existed (and
where) in New England for
>transloading of coal from ships to rail? I'm
just curious. I know
>that even today there is some bulk oil
reloading into rail
cars from
>barges, as well as cement transloading.
>
>New England could receive West Virginia coal
directly via the New
>York Central's intrusion into C&O
territory... that is probably
>another reason why C&O cars were so rare in
New England. And the
>N&W too, for the same reason. Not that the
N&W needed the extra
>business!
>
>
>
>


--
Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, Oregon


__________________________________________________
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Garth Groff <ggg9y@...>
 

Uhhh, Marty:

What are you going to do for decals? IIRC, the C&I decal I used on my car (now long gone) was Walthers.

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff

Marty McGuirk wrote:


. . . The long and short of it is I was going to sell, give away, or otherwise pitch the Sunshine mini-kit to make a C&I hopper from the Atlas model. Now I'm going to build the car, and even managed to find the Atlas hopper I need as a raw material this last weekend . . . .

Marty


benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
 

Garth Groff wrote:
What are you going to do for decals? IIRC, the C&I decal I used on
my car (now long gone) was Walthers.

The Sunshine minikit comes with decals.


Ben Hom


Thomas Baker
 

Yes, Tim, thank you very much and thanks to others for their insights as well. Just one thing: I in no way meant to imply that a N&W hopper never showed up on the CGW. I only meant to say that I have never seen a photo of one. Years ago when the CGW was alive and well, a young gentleman tried to photograph almost every car that showed up on the CGW in his area. From those early years, almost none of his photos exist unless they are in the hands of some hoarder. From about 1954 on, a few of his photos do exist. Of course, by this time he was an elderly gentleman but still out there photographing freight cars. Anyway, the evidence does suggest that while hoppers from many roads showed up, fewer--far fewer--showed up from the N&W.

Tom

________________________________

From: Tim Gilbert [mailto:tgilbert@...]
Sent: Thu 9/30/2004 3:59 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] C&I Hoppers Getting around -- CV Local Freight



Thomas Baker wrote:

Tim, your analysis of hopper car interchange fits pretty well with
what I have been able to find out about hoppers used by the Chicago
Great Western for loading ore from the open-pit mines near Ostrander
in southern Minnesota. The CGW hardly ever used ore jennies.
Instead, the company used its own hoppers as well as hoppers from
foreign roads. By the Mid-Fifties it was anyone's guess whose hoppers
would show up at McIntire, Iowa. I have seen photos of C&I, C&EI,
MONON (composite types), WABASH, LV, GN, NP, NYC, and many other
lines. As of yet no photos of N&W hoppers in southern Minnesota have
surfaced. That might be because N&W hoppers operated on a tightly
controlled movement from mine to ship and never wandered much off line.
Tom,

1) I would assume that the C&I, C&EI, MONON, WAB, NP and NYC hoppers
arrived on the CGW with coal mined in the southern Indiana and Illinois
soft coal belts. Thus, CGW's reloading them with ore made sense to the
degree they could reduce the amount of non-revenue producing empty car
miles.
2) I don't know whether the LV carried anthracite to a dealer on the CGW
or was a "leaker" with southern IN or IL bituminous; still, the
reloading with ore reduced empty car miles.
3) More than quite a few N&W hoppers did wander off-line, but they could
not be loaded on the CGW without violating Car Service Bureau's Order
C-411. In 1956, 33,607 (76.3%) of the total daily average of freight
cars on N&W (44,051 cars) were home road owned. On 12/31/1956, the total
number of open top hoppers that the N&W was 44,991 which was 101.0% of
the total cars on line (44,051). This meant that at least 11,384 of
N&W's hoppers were off-line (44,991 hoppers owned less 36,607 N&W cars
at home). The N&W also had 9,911 boxcars, 276 flat cars, 296 stock
cars, 4,388 gondolas, 749 covered hoppers , 443 racks and 48 "other
types" of which some of them were at home. In all, the N&W owned 60,302
cars on 12/31/1956 which was 136.9% of the total number of cars on line.

Most roads owned less cars than were on their lines. Privately owned
reefers and tank cars was the prime reason for this. The N&W, however,
was an exception. Most of the reason for this exception was due to the
inability of the N&W to have a supply of empty hoppers at the mineheads
without the enforcement of Car Order C-411. Compared to Boxcars, Hoppers
were somewhat one-dimensional in the variety of commodities they could
carry, and there was not much demand for ore at the N&W's mines.

Hope this helps, Tim Gilbert







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