After looking at thousands of photos of CV freight trains taken between the years 1939 and 1957, I have to say I've never seen a C&O hopper on the CV. NYC ones are fairly rare (ie., one or two have shown up). The most common, by far, are B&O hoppers, followed closely by PRR cars (H21s, and some of the smaller PRR twins as well). EVERY picture I've seen that shows a hopper spotted at a CV coaling tower is a either a CV company service car (CV 2000-20199) OR a B&O car --normally a offset twin of one type or another.

From what I've been able to fathom extremely large coal shipments (like trains of the stuff, enough to run a power plant) were fairly rare into New England. The region is rich in natural resources, lots of water, timber (at least early on), and excellent, and a world championship football team <g>, but NO coal. None, notta, nothing.

So you would think there would have been lots of coal shipped into the region (in the '40s and '50s a noticeable percentage of New England power was hydro -- no surprise considering the water and rivers in the area) but there were a lot of coal fired power plants. One, in Montville, Conn., was served by the CV -- but the railroad didn't deliver coal, only machinery and other items on as-needed basis. The coal itself came up the coast in barges from the Va Capes.

One other CV on line customer, near the present site of the USCG Academy, was the Thames River Shipyard, which was also known as the Thames River Towboat Co. Their main business for many years was towing coastal barges of coal (and oil) in the various waterfront towns in New England.

Although it was never finished, I've always found it interesting that the best maps showing the routes to be used by the defunct Southern New England into Providence, RI, were all prepared by the Chesapeake & Ohio Railroad -- and there are clear indications on the map of an intent to provide a rail-marine coal transfer facility in Providence. Of course, all of this could have been part of the whole deal between the various super egos involved in this particular project on both sides.

Marty

I have a slightly different angle on Marty's New England coal discussion. I am more familiar with the New Haven. The NH received lots of anthracite in foreign road hoppers via the gateway at Maybrook. Reading, LV and LNE hoppers were commonplace with D&H and some Erie sprinkled in as well. PRR hoppers were numerous (H21 types, as Marty has seen), as one would expect. I have also seen lots of NYC hoppers in photos, particularly the USRA 70-ton types. Hoppers from the B&O, N&W and WM were rare, but not unheard of. Like Marty, I cannot recall ever seeing a C&O car in photos. Regarding the NH's fleet of USRA hoppers, it is interesting to me, that while they served the coal industry at online points of transloading from barge, they also are frequent "guests" in photos from the Harrisburg area. I wonder if this is because they were sent for loading for NH company service or because they were captured by the Pennsy.

Regards,
Ted Culotta

As Ted, Tim, and some others know, when I say "New England" I'm usually taking a "CV Centric" point of view. And, since the Central Vermont was really a connection from Canada and the Midwest US into New England it would be highly unusual to find large number of loaded coal hoppers coming south on the railroad <g>, and the geography of the region and the routes of the railroads would have meant the largest amount of rail-shipped coal would have come into the region via the NH and NYC --
and maybe some small amounts (into Vermont) on the Rutland and/or B&M.

It's my understanding during the era we're talking about that there was really two types of coal traffic -- that ofr industrial use and that for home/retail use. So, (though I might be wrong, I often am!) a lot of those LV, Reading etc . . . . twin hopper cars would have been more likely to have anthracite coal. And anthracite coal was used in small quantities in power generating stations -- but was far more common in home heating use. My Dad owned a company that for many years had sold retail coal, and the old records (and signs on the bins we used to play in as kids -- by then not full of coal and now long gone) indicated several different sizes and grades of coal. As I understand it the dealer would mix these in the truck (so much of pea, so much of egg for example) and sell that as a customized blend.

Regarding WM hoppers -- I've seen a number of examples of them on the CV -- both in photos and car records.

Marty

Marty,I think this thread is worth pursuing.The Rutland stopped sending
their hoppers off line in 1923 Company coal arrived on line and was off
loaded at Alburgh where it was transferred to company cars to save on per
diem charges.Coal for dealers and other companies remained in the cars of
foreign roads.I must add, that there are always exceptions to the rule in
almost every case.I have also seen photos of B&O ,NKP,Pennsy,and NYC hoppers
spotted at Rutland coaling towers.Still a mystery,at least to me,were the
number of Berwind cars that were interchanged with the CV at Alburgh.They
were generally returned as empties in approximately three days later.I have
learned early on not to say,"never".especially discussing such things as car
distribution.Armand Premo

Armand Premo wrote:
Still a mystery, at least to me, were the number of Berwind cars
that were interchanged with the CV at Alburgh. They were generally
returned as empties in approximately three days later.

One possible clue is that Berwind hoppers were private-owner cars.
They wouldn't be handled the same as railroad-owned cars, as normal
car service rules wouldn't apply to them.


Ben Hom

On Oct 1, 2004, at 12:38 PM, benjaminfrank_hom wrote:

Armand Premo wrote:
Still a mystery, at least to me, were the number of Berwind cars
that were interchanged with the CV at Alburgh. They were generally
returned as empties in approximately three days later.

One possible clue is that Berwind hoppers were private-owner cars. 
They wouldn't be handled the same as railroad-owned cars, as normal
car service rules wouldn't apply to them.

To expand on what Ben said, I think that as a private owner, Berwind
was actually shipping coal via its own cars directly to customers. My
dad remembers seeing Berwind cars in the New Haven area in the late
1940s and early 1950s. I wonder if there was a significantly higher
preponderance of the Berwind-PRR cars seen in NE over the Berwind-C&O
cars?

Regards,
Ted Culotta

I think it all boiled down to price when it came to anthracite sizes being
mixed. For home heating, the larger the size the more it cost. My folks always
ordered a mix of sizes. Think the larger stuff kept the finer pieces from
falling through the grates.

Been studying the anthracite industry for years. A really great source of
info to help get some idea of coal movements is to study the carloads received
from other lines. For most easter roads this is broken down into anthracite and
bituminous. Usually the number of cars laoded on line is given.

I agree that very few C&O cars were seen in the northeast, or at least that I
can recall. On the D&H moving north out of Wilkes-Barre and bound for Canada
and New England there was a very large volume of bituminous coal along with
the anthracite. For all intents, The D&H was an extension of the PRR to New
England and Canada.
Do remember seeing N&W cars. Even recall seeing some of those Seely type SOU
composites with outside chains holding the bottom doors; also northbound on
the D&H. Almost all the loco coal used on the DL&W and D&H arrived in PRR
hoppers since these "anthracite" roads burned very little anthracite after about
WW1.

During steam years roughly 25% of all coal produced was used by the railroads
so much of what was moving to New England was loco fuel. So a model railroad
with coaling facilities should have some logic as to where that coal
orginated.

Railroads could never compete where a water route was available. One of the
most amazing examples of this was where the PRR at Sodus Point NY loaded
bituminous coal into lake boats to transport it to a power plant at Oswego...a
distance of only 40 miles!

All very interesting...and not a lot of documentation available!

Chuck Yungkurth
Boulder CO


.

Ted Culotta wrote:

I have a slightly different angle on Marty's New England coal
discussion. I am more familiar with the New Haven. The NH received
lots of anthracite in foreign road hoppers via the gateway at Maybrook.
Reading, LV and LNE hoppers were commonplace with D&H and some Erie
sprinkled in as well. PRR hoppers were numerous (H21 types, as Marty
has seen), as one would expect. I have also seen lots of NYC hoppers
in photos, particularly the USRA 70-ton types. Hoppers from the B&O,
N&W and WM were rare, but not unheard of. Like Marty, I cannot recall
ever seeing a C&O car in photos. Regarding the NH's fleet of USRA
hoppers, it is interesting to me, that while they served the coal
industry at online points of transloading from barge, they also are
frequent "guests" in photos from the Harrisburg area. I wonder if this
is because they were sent for loading for NH company service or because
they were captured by the Pennsy.

================================================




While you ponder the appearance of those cars in New England, I've pondered
the appearance of New Haven and Lehigh Valley hoppers on the Western
Maryland Railway in the northern West Virginia coal fields. I've discussed
this a few times with Max Robin (who is probably lurking here somewhere...).
Strings of New Haven hopper cars were being loaded at a mine on the Coal &
Iron line south of Elkins for about a decade. Lehigh Valley cars show up in
photos taken around Belington, W. Va. Possibly there was a special contract
to a user on these railroads, or possibly company coal.

In another instance, cars from the Rainey Wood Coke Company and the Alan
Wood Steel Company were frequent visitors to WM rails. I suspect there was a
metallurgical attraction to the coal from certain mines along the WM.

It can add up to a varied coal train consist, depending on the era.

Eric Hansmann
Morgantown, W. Va.

Marty wrote:

"As I understand it the dealer would mix these in the truck (so much of pea, so much of egg for
example) and sell that as a customized blend."

What would the purpose of this be? If the coal is basically the same type what would the reasoning
for mixing different sizes?

I'd think that different sizes would be used based on the different characteristics of the boiler
units burning it.

I don't see how mixing sizes makes sense.


Eric Petersson


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On Oct 2, 2004, at 5:01 PM, Eric wrote:

Marty wrote:

"As I understand it the dealer would mix these in the truck (so much of pea, so much of egg for
example) and sell that as a customized blend."

What would the purpose of this be? If the coal is basically the same type what would the reasoning
for mixing different sizes?

I'd think that different sizes would be used based on the different characteristics of the boiler
units burning it.

I don't see how mixing sizes makes sense.

Eric:

I would guess that one of the most important rules in chemistry and other sciences is at work here. Assuming equal composition, for equal weights, the smaller sized coal would have greater surface area and therefore burn at a faster rate, meaning a hotter fire, or am I way off base here?

Regards,
Ted Culotta

Ted Culotta:
I would guess that one of the most important

rules in

chemistry and other sciences is at work here.

Assuming equal

composition, for equal weights, the smaller

sized coal would

have greater surface area and therefore burn at

a faster

rate, meaning a hotter fire, or am I way off

base here?

I can't find the reference book I want, but I
think you're at least in a rundown between first
and second . . .

The usual formulas relating to spheres (yeah, I
know they're not true spheres, but close enough)
involve 4/3rds of R, so as R increases the volume
gets bigger faster.

The reason I agree that mixing sizes of coal makes
little to no sense is that the grates it's placed
on have openings sizes related to the size of the
coal. Pea coal would fall right through the
grates designed for lump or egg coal. Not
desireable.

SGL

"As I understand it the dealer would mix these in the truck (so much

of pea, so much of egg for

example) and sell that as a customized blend."

What would the purpose of this be? If the coal is basically the same

type what would the reasoning

for mixing different sizes?

I'd think that different sizes would be used based on the different

characteristics of the boiler

units burning it.

Perhaps the mixing of coal sizes was something peculiar to starting a
specific type of boiler up from cold. The smaller coal would allow
almost instant ignition and rapid rise in BTU rate. The larger coal
would then ignite and burn at a slower, steadier rate.

Just a thought,
Mike Fortney

Schuyler Larrabee wrote:

The usual formulas relating to spheres (yeah, I
know they're not true spheres, but close enough)
involve 4/3rds of R, so as R increases the volume
gets bigger faster.

I think Schuyler means the volume gets big faster than the surface area as R increases. But of course it has little to do with the four-thirds part; surface area goes as R squared, volume as R cubed. So Ted's initial comment, that the smaller pieces burn better because of larger surface area per unit volume, is correct. The limiting case is dust: that's why flour dust in silos is explosive (it really just burns extremely fast, which is what an explosion is).

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

--- In STMFC@..., Ted Culotta <tculotta@s...> wrote:
"Regarding the NH's fleet of USRA hoppers, it is interesting
to me, that while they served the coal industry at online points
of transloading from barge, they also are frequent "guests" in
photos from the Harrisburg area. I wonder if this is because
they were sent for loading for NH company service or because
they were captured by the Pennsy."

Now if I can just tear myself away from the John Orr's book
"Set Up Running" for a couple of minuets to answer this! You
know I don't have the time that Tom Olsen has now that he is
retired, two more years Tom!

Ted, I almost 100% sure that the NH hoppers are in company
service gathering coal for NH coal fired power plants to make
electricity for the electrified zones. Thay may have been
sent to the Pennsy to protect coal loadings from a mine that
NH was getting a good price from. PRR would certainly have
accepted the cars empty knowing that did not have to use PRR
cars that may have been short supply, and also knowing that
thay would get the loaded haul in return.

See You at Naperville soon,
Jerry Stewart
Chicago, Ill.

--- In STMFC@..., "itc_725" <emfour@g...> wrote:

"As I understand it the dealer would mix these in the truck (so

much

of pea, so much of egg for

example) and sell that as a customized blend."

What would the purpose of this be? If the coal is basically the

same

type what would the reasoning

for mixing different sizes?

I'd think that different sizes would be used based on the

different

characteristics of the boiler

units burning it.

Perhaps the mixing of coal sizes was something peculiar to starting

a

specific type of boiler up from cold. The smaller coal would allow
almost instant ignition and rapid rise in BTU rate. The larger coal
would then ignite and burn at a slower, steadier rate.

Just a thought,
Mike Fortney

Mike, your on the right track here. Some folks might have
done this to get a hot fire in the furnace to have heat now,
and let the larger lumps burn slowly through the night so that
thay did not have to get up and restoke the fire in the middle
of the night. Ask me how I know this and I will tell you that
my grandfather told me so, you see he had to do this in the
middle of a cold winter nights! Oh boy, the things you remember
from being a kid when you are getting older. Remember the big
point here, people were buying coal to heat there homes.

Also, that brings up another interesting thing that local
coal merchants use to sell a lot of. Pea sized coke for hot
water heaters. If you did not have gas for the house heating
furnace, you also did not have it for the hot water heaters.

What I have found is that you go to your local public
library and ask for the newspapers for the fall (heating
season) in the year that you are intending to model. You
will see adds from the coal dealers as to what thay have
for sale, as well as the price. From this you can get a
general picture of where the coal was coming from, i.e.
Western West Virginia, Eastern Kentucty, etc., thay advertised
it this way in Chicago. Most home oweners bought better
grades of coal if it was priced right, and shipping coats
was part of it. NOT all coal is the same quality, and Chicago
was within a short trip of good Kentucty and West Virginia
coal. I had found photos of some of the coal dealers on the
North side of Chicago, and sure enough you would alway see
N&W, VGN, L&N, and C&O. hoppers spotted in them.

Anyway, you get the picture here, its all about not
getting up in the middle of a cold winter night, and price.
"Coal Satisfaction" as the N&W adds would say.

Regards,
Man I got to work tonight,
got to get to bed.
Jerry Stewart
Chicago, Ill.

--- In STMFC@..., "switchengines" <jrs060@m...> wrote:

.... where the coal was coming from, i.e. Western West Virginia,
Eastern Kentucty, etc., thay advertised it this way in Chicago. Most
home oweners bought better grades of coal if it was priced right, and
shipping costs was part of it. NOT all coal is the same quality, and
Chicago
was within a short trip of good Kentucty and West Virginia coal.

Brings to mind the comment from a friend who retired off the Illinois
Terminal. Hired on as a brakeman during WWII, one of his
responsibilities was to keep the coal bin in the caboose stocked with
company-issued coal from a local mine. He said "That crap burnt so
poorly in the stove that one pound of coal produced two pounds of ash
and cinders". He learned quickly to keep an eye out in the yards for
an adjacent L&N hopper from which he could "borrow" a bucket or two of
good Kentucky Block coal.

Mike Fortney>

No Ted,

You're correct.

A residential furnace wouldn't require as hot of a fire, as say, a
furnace in a hotel.

Also, the larger pieces of coal would burn longer (as a rule).


At least that's how I understand it. I can ask my Dad more detailed
questions if anyone cares enough to know.

Marty

On Saturday, October 2, 2004, at 07:53 PM, Ted Culotta wrote:

On Oct 2, 2004, at 5:01 PM, Eric wrote:

Marty wrote:

  "As I understand it the dealer would mix these in the truck (so much
of pea, so much of egg for
  example) and sell that as a customized blend."

  What would the purpose of this be? If the coal is basically the same
type what would the reasoning
  for mixing different sizes?

  I'd think that different sizes would be used based on the different
characteristics of the boiler
  units burning it.

  I don't see how mixing sizes makes sense.

Eric:

I would guess that one of the most important rules in chemistry and
other sciences is at work here.  Assuming equal composition, for equal
weights, the smaller sized coal would have greater surface area and
therefore burn at a faster rate, meaning a hotter fire, or am I way off
base here?

Regards,
Ted Culotta

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The NYC men did the same with Rutland Coal at Norwood,NY.Now as another
spin,how did coke get to New England?A

Ted, Eric, and Marty;
And one other consideration being that home heating required a mix to ensure
that you weren't going down to your basement every ½ hour to stoke up again.
Larger sizes of coal took longer to burn, and thus extended the time over
which you could do other things.

Elden Gatwood

I'm guessing at some of this, but there were two (maybe more) large coke producing plants in New England, both Eastern Gas and Fuel (EG&F). The largest was in Everett, Mass., and I believe the second was in New Haven, Conn. The coke was produced in by-product coke ovens. The Everett plant produced over 1.1 M tons of coke/year in 1949. Some was used by Mystic Iron Blast Furnace, some for foundries, some exported (surplus), but the balance was used in metropolitan Boston area for home heating (truck and rail). Between 40-50 loaded hoppers were shipped to various points in New England over the B&A and B&M. I assume that the New Haven facility did the something similar. Maybe Tim Gilbert can elaborate on this. I can remember seeing the coke hoppers in and out of the plant as a kid, but I was too young to know where they went. When I worked at the Everett plant, I was too busy trying to get the coal rings around my eyes clean enough for the evening's date.
Regards,
Norm Larkin