NH/WM /B&O hoppers on the Erie


ed_mines
 

There's a photo of a NH USRA hopper behind an Erie steam locomotive
in one of the soft cover Erie steam books from the '70s (I think
it's a Carlton book).

I think the photo was taken near Maybrook, the NH Erie connection
across the Hudson river from Poughkeepsie, NY. AS the crow flies
Maybrook is closer to the anthracite fields by a direct Erie route,
compared to shipping anthracite to the New York City area, moving it
by barge to a NH connection and sending back west to Maybrook in NH
hoppers.

I've noticed more WM hoppers than one would expect in various Erie
steam photos. A John Long (Erie corporate photographer) photo of an
Erie steam train near Binghamton containing 2 WM hoppers (one
fishbelly, one channel side) immediately comes to mind. Maybe they
were loaded with bituminous coal going north and reloaded with
anthracite going south. Apparently anthracite was sold as far south
as Washington, DC if photos in the wales collection are any
indication.

I recall seeing some B&O hoppers in Erie steam photos on the eastern
end of the Erie.

The presence of foreign road hoppers containing bituminous coal was
very location dependent on the Erie which had both bituminous coal
and anthracite mines on line. THe bituminous mines were on the
Bradford branch which is approximately south of Rochester, NY on the
NY/PA state line.

I can remember more than one photo of an all hopper train on the
Erie containing PRR, NYC and a few N&W hoppers. I assume these
contained bituminous coal.

Ed


Tim O'Connor
 

Apparently anthracite was sold as far south as Washington, DC
if photos in the wales collection are any indication.
Anthracite from Pennsylvania was sold all over the country,
and exported to other countries as well. It was the fuel of
choice for home heating. Quite a lot of it was shipped in
box cars.

I recall seeing some B&O hoppers in Erie steam photos on the
eastern end of the Erie.
Considering that the B&O served New York City (via car floats)
along with PRR, LV, Erie, Reading, and CNJ, I'd be amazed if there
weren't photos showing B&O hoppers in that area.


Pete Brown &#92;(YahooGroups&#92;) <YahooLists@...>
 

The WM was an active participant in the alphabet route, which might explain
some of its rolling stock being found up in NY during the diesel era.



The alphabet route included: WM, P&WV, Reading, CNJ, NYC&STL, W&LE, L&HR,
NYNH&H and B&M. It did not include the Erie or B&O, however, and was even
considered competitors of those railroads, IIRC.



I know WM had customers in odd places that specifically wanted its coal for
various uses. Most of the WM coal went to Baltimore and out on ships,
however.



The WM coal operations, specifically those in the Chaffee branch in WV, can
make for some really interesting modeling. Shay #6, the largest as-built
Shay ever, was the ruler of those 10% grades up to the coal mines.



Pete



_____________________________________________________
Pete Brown - Gambrills, MD (Near Annapolis)
Visit my personal site : http://www.irritatedVowel.com
(wallpaper, western maryland ry, .net, photography, model rr)



_____

From: ed_mines [mailto:ed_mines@...]
Sent: Saturday, October 02, 2004 5:48 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] NH/WM /B&O hoppers on the Erie



There's a photo of a NH USRA hopper behind an Erie steam locomotive
in one of the soft cover Erie steam books from the '70s (I think
it's a Carlton book).

I think the photo was taken near Maybrook, the NH Erie connection
across the Hudson river from Poughkeepsie, NY. AS the crow flies
Maybrook is closer to the anthracite fields by a direct Erie route,
compared to shipping anthracite to the New York City area, moving it
by barge to a NH connection and sending back west to Maybrook in NH
hoppers.

I've noticed more WM hoppers than one would expect in various Erie
steam photos. A John Long (Erie corporate photographer) photo of an
Erie steam train near Binghamton containing 2 WM hoppers (one
fishbelly, one channel side) immediately comes to mind. Maybe they
were loaded with bituminous coal going north and reloaded with
anthracite going south. Apparently anthracite was sold as far south
as Washington, DC if photos in the wales collection are any
indication.

I recall seeing some B&O hoppers in Erie steam photos on the eastern
end of the Erie.

The presence of foreign road hoppers containing bituminous coal was
very location dependent on the Erie which had both bituminous coal
and anthracite mines on line. THe bituminous mines were on the
Bradford branch which is approximately south of Rochester, NY on the
NY/PA state line.

I can remember more than one photo of an all hopper train on the
Erie containing PRR, NYC and a few N&W hoppers. I assume these
contained bituminous coal.

Ed


Larry Kline
 

I just posted a diagram called _WM coal traffic - 1950s_ that shows the
origins and destinations for coal traffic on the WM. The information
on destinations is from an article in the May 1950 issue of Modern
Railroads. The information on origins is from the H H Copeland
Reoports.

Photos suggest that the coal that originated at the Ida May and
Williams mines and on the Elkins line was shipped in WM hoppers. The
Ida May mine was a Bethlehem Steel mine and shipped to their plants
primarily in Baltimore, MD and Bethlehem, PA. The Williams mine was a
Consolidation Coal mine and shipped to commercial customers. I believe
that the various mines on the Elkins line also shipped to commercial
customers. Consequently, I would expect to see WM hoppers in the
Philadelphia and New York City areas and in New England and Canada.
This coal was delivered to the Reading at Lurgan PA, near Shippensburg,
for shipment to these destinations.

The B&O coal was received at Cherry Run WV and delivered to the Reading
at Lurgan. Its likely that some of the B&O hoppers that were
photographed in Philadelphia and New York City areas and in New England
and Canada were shipped via the WM.

Larry Kline
Pittsburgh, PA


Pete Brown &#92;(YahooGroups&#92;) <YahooLists@...>
 

FYI

I'm currently doing a little more research into the information below. I
haven't yet found any credible references (just some postings) for L&HR,
NYNH&H and B&M being considered part of the Alphabet route.

Thanks to Paul C. for getting me to take a second look at this :-)

Pete

_____________________________________________________
 Pete Brown - Gambrills, MD (Near Annapolis)
 Visit my personal site : http://www.irritatedVowel.com
 (wallpaper, western maryland ry, .net, photography, model rr)

________________________________________
From: Pete Brown (YahooGroups) [mailto:YahooLists@...]
Sent: Saturday, October 02, 2004 6:36 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: RE: [STMFC] NH/WM /B&O hoppers on the Erie

The WM was an active participant in the alphabet route, which might explain
some of its rolling stock being found up in NY during the diesel era.

The alphabet route included: WM, P&WV, Reading, CNJ, NYC&STL, W&LE, L&HR,
NYNH&H and B&M. It did not include the Erie or B&O, however, and was even
considered competitors of those railroads, IIRC.

I know WM had customers in odd places that specifically wanted its coal for
various uses. Most of the WM coal went to Baltimore and out on ships,
however.

The WM coal operations, specifically those in the Chaffee branch in WV, can
make for some really interesting modeling. Shay #6, the largest as-built
Shay ever, was the ruler of those 10% grades up to the coal mines.

Pete

_____________________________________________________
Pete Brown - Gambrills, MD (Near Annapolis)
Visit my personal site : http://www.irritatedVowel.com
(wallpaper, western maryland ry, .net, photography, model rr)


Pete Brown &#92;(YahooGroups&#92;) <YahooLists@...>
 

Thanks Larry. Great diagram.

Pete

_____________________________________________________
 Pete Brown - Gambrills, MD (Near Annapolis)
 Visit my personal site : http://www.irritatedVowel.com
 (wallpaper, western maryland ry, .net, photography, model rr)

________________________________________
From: larry kline [mailto:lndkline@...]
Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 1:57 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: NH/WM /B&O hoppers on the Erie

I just posted a diagram called _WM coal traffic - 1950s_ that shows the
origins and destinations for coal traffic on the WM.  The information
on destinations is from an article in the May 1950 issue of Modern
Railroads.  The information on origins is from the H H Copeland
Reoports.

Photos suggest that the coal that originated at the Ida May and
Williams mines and on the Elkins line was shipped in WM hoppers.  The 
Ida May mine was a Bethlehem Steel mine and shipped to their plants
primarily in Baltimore, MD and Bethlehem, PA.  The Williams mine was a
Consolidation Coal mine and shipped to commercial customers.  I believe
that the various mines on the Elkins line also shipped to commercial
customers.  Consequently, I would expect to see WM hoppers in the
Philadelphia and New York City areas and in New England and Canada. 
This coal was delivered to the Reading at Lurgan PA, near Shippensburg,
for shipment to these destinations.

The B&O coal was received at Cherry Run WV and delivered to the Reading
at Lurgan.  Its likely that some of the B&O hoppers that were
photographed in Philadelphia and New York City areas and in New England
and Canada were shipped via the WM.

Larry Kline
Pittsburgh, PA


boyds1949 <john.king@...>
 

In addition to the B&O coal shipped to the northeast via WM, a large
amount of B&O coal was also interchanged with both the Reading and
PRR at Cumbo, WV, an interchange yard just west of Martinsburg, WV.
Reading ran trains on the PRR between Penn Road Tower (north of
Chambersburg) and Cumbo.

John King



The B&O coal was received at Cherry Run WV and delivered to the
Reading
at Lurgan. Its likely that some of the B&O hoppers that were
photographed in Philadelphia and New York City areas and in New
England
and Canada were shipped via the WM.

Larry Kline
Pittsburgh, PA