boy oh boycott


asychis@...
 

In a message dated 10/06/04 6:56:41 PM Central Standard Time,
dblake2996@... writes:
There are many of us on this list that are fans of other things. Say NASCAR,
NCAA athletics, pro sports, etc.etc.etc....If you purchase any protects from
any of these organizations you are paying a licensing fee to do so.
You bet. This argument is SO OLD and SO TRITE! My God, you'd think the UP
was causing prices to double! I think I'll go drink a Hineken purchased from a
licensed distributor.

Jerry Michels


Tim O'Connor
 

Do you mean you are boycotting the vendor, or just products
lettered for UP? UP claims rights to C&NW, Rock Island, SSW,
SP, D&RGW, WP, and many others (dozens, in fact). If I refuse
to buy from Red Caboose, Intermountain, Athearn (now licensed),
brass importers, and probably Atlas, Bachmann, Broadway Ltd...
just who is left besides Westerfield and Sunshine?

PRR modelers are safe, apparently. But the rest of us are in
trademark hell.

I will get even by applying copious amounts of graffiti and
heavy weathering to everything lettered for the UP, and try
to get as many pictures of crappy UP equipment as possible on
the web. Forget justice, just think: SMEAR. We could also try
to create Google confusion, by linking our web sites to a web
site that disparages everything UP. This just might get their
attention, and there is nothing they can do about it.


Brian Paul Ehni <behni@...>
 

UP DOES NOT claim rights to Rock Island. The trademarks and copyrights for
the RI are held by Maytag!
--
Brian Ehni

From: cf5250 <timboconnor@...>
Reply-To: <STMFC@...>
Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2004 20:30:56 -0000
To: <STMFC@...>
Subject: [STMFC] Re: boy oh boycott




Do you mean you are boycotting the vendor, or just products
lettered for UP? UP claims rights to C&NW, Rock Island, SSW,
SP, D&RGW, WP, and many others (dozens, in fact). If I refuse
to buy from Red Caboose, Intermountain, Athearn (now licensed),
brass importers, and probably Atlas, Bachmann, Broadway Ltd...
just who is left besides Westerfield and Sunshine?

PRR modelers are safe, apparently. But the rest of us are in
trademark hell.

I will get even by applying copious amounts of graffiti and
heavy weathering to everything lettered for the UP, and try
to get as many pictures of crappy UP equipment as possible on
the web. Forget justice, just think: SMEAR. We could also try
to create Google confusion, by linking our web sites to a web
site that disparages everything UP. This just might get their
attention, and there is nothing they can do about it.









Yahoo! Groups Links







Dave Nelson <muskoka@...>
 

I will not knowingly purchase a product that has been licensed by UP. If
that leaves just Al and Martin standing, so be it.

Dave Nelson

-----Original Message-----
From: cf5250 [mailto:timboconnor@...]
Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 1:31 PM


Do you mean you are boycotting the vendor, or just products lettered for UP?
UP claims rights to C&NW, Rock Island, SSW, SP, D&RGW, WP, and many others
(dozens, in fact). If I refuse to buy from Red Caboose, Intermountain,
Athearn (now licensed), brass importers, and probably Atlas, Bachmann,
Broadway Ltd...
just who is left besides Westerfield and Sunshine?


Denis F. Blake <dblake2996@...>
 

Dave

Why penalize the manufacturers? They made a sound business decision that enabled them to sell products that have a large appeal in our hobby. Even if all of us joined in such a thing the impact on the railroads in question would be so small they would not even notice it. The only loosers in this are the manufacturers who supply us with the items for our hobby, our enjoyment.

There are many of us on this list that are fans of other things. Say NASCAR, NCAA athletics, pro sports, etc.etc.etc....If you purchase any protects from any of these organizations you are paying a licensing fee to do so. Licensing fees are common in most segments of the market today. For many years the model railroaders have had a free lunch in this regard. Well guys, that free lunch is no longer available and we have to start paying the fees that are so common in other aspects of business.

I look at it like this, the money that we saved in years past will more than make up for what we are going to spend in the future on licensed products.

To those who complain, boycott, etc. I have this to say...

GET OVER IT..

Denis F. Blake
Columbus, OH

----- Original Message -----
From: Dave Nelson
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 7:35 PM
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: boy oh boycott


I will not knowingly purchase a product that has been licensed by UP. If
that leaves just Al and Martin standing, so be it.

Dave Nelson

-----Original Message-----
From: cf5250 [mailto:timboconnor@...]
Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 1:31 PM


Do you mean you are boycotting the vendor, or just products lettered for UP?
UP claims rights to C&NW, Rock Island, SSW, SP, D&RGW, WP, and many others
(dozens, in fact). If I refuse to buy from Red Caboose, Intermountain,
Athearn (now licensed), brass importers, and probably Atlas, Bachmann,
Broadway Ltd...
just who is left besides Westerfield and Sunshine?



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Jon Miller <atsf@...>
 

Say NASCAR, NCAA athletics, pro sports, etc.etc.etc....If you purchase any
protects<
I'm in model railroading and into steam era freight cars and probably
for many reasons. I don't buy any of that stuff mentioned.

Jon Miller
AT&SF
For me time has stopped in 1941
Digitrax, Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI user
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Andy Harman <andy10@...>
 

At 07:51 PM 10/6/2004 -0400, you wrote:

Why penalize the manufacturers? They made a sound business decision that
enabled them to sell products that have a large appeal in our hobby.
They made a very poor decision that gives an outside entity, with no vested
interest in their business, control over what products they are allowed to
make.

Even if all of us joined in such a thing the impact on the railroads in
question would be so small they would not even notice it. The only
loosers in >this are the manufacturers who supply us with the items for our
hobby, our >enjoyment.

You are correct, they are the losers. They have no one to blame but
themselves.

NCAA athletics, pro sports, etc.etc.etc....If you purchase any protects
from >any of these organizations you are paying a licensing fee to do so.

They don't have 100 years of precedent and free use behind them. This
seems to be universally ignored by the legal apologists that only look at
the letter of the law, as amended this week. Yes, it's true if a company
doesn't defend its trademark, it becomes public domain. Isn't 135 years
long enough? Even if they DO create new logos, which are legitimately
"ownable", the fallen flags are historical property of every American citizen.

s regard. Well guys, that free lunch is no longer available and we have
to >start paying the fees that are so common in other aspects of business.

Yes, you are correct. We're going to have to start paying, because no one
has the stones to fight it. I can't fight it because I'm not a party to
the case, but I can sure say what I think of it.

I don't believe in boycotting. I don't advocate it or suggest it, it's
pretty much a waste of time. I'm just waiting for the first time this
whole thing ends up being more than just a fee - which by itself is not
warranted. But signing over tooling, and control of the business - anybody
who did that will deserve what they get in the end.

Andy


Andy Harman <andy10@...>
 

At 08:13 PM 10/6/2004 EDT, you wrote:

You bet. This argument is SO OLD and SO TRITE!
If you are thinking in terms of OLD, then take a look at 130+ years of
Union Pacific models without any interference from UP the corporation. If
that doesn't amount to "undefended tradmark" I don't know what does. Bayer
lost their trademark on "aspirin" in far, far, far less time.

It's not trite either. Look at what Union Pacific is demanding of those
who sign. It's in the fine print. It's not the license fee, it's the
control they are demanding over the hobby manufacturers. Control they have
absolutely no more right to than the man in the moon.

Andy


Dave Nelson <muskoka@...>
 

This isn't the place to debate the why's. I simply answered Tim's question
with a factual statement. If you want to debate my position there's another
list where that can occur (and surely Mike will soon remind us of where that
is)..

Dave Nelson

-----Original Message-----
From: Denis F. Blake [mailto:dblake2996@...]
Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 4:51 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: boy oh boycott


Dave

Why penalize the manufacturers? They made a sound business decision that
enabled them to sell products that have a large appeal in our hobby. Even
if all of us joined in such a thing the impact on the railroads in question
would be so small they would not even notice it. The only loosers in this
are the manufacturers who supply us with the items for our hobby, our
enjoyment.

There are many of us on this list that are fans of other things. Say
NASCAR, NCAA athletics, pro sports, etc.etc.etc....If you purchase any
protects from any of these organizations you are paying a licensing fee to
do so. Licensing fees are common in most segments of the market today. For
many years the model railroaders have had a free lunch in this regard. Well
guys, that free lunch is no longer available and we have to start paying the
fees that are so common in other aspects of business.

I look at it like this, the money that we saved in years past will more than
make up for what we are going to spend in the future on licensed products.

To those who complain, boycott, etc. I have this to say...

GET OVER IT..

Denis F. Blake
Columbus, OH
----- Original Message -----
From: Dave Nelson
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 7:35 PM
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: boy oh boycott


I will not knowingly purchase a product that has been licensed by UP. If
that leaves just Al and Martin standing, so be it.

Dave Nelson

-----Original Message-----
From: cf5250 [mailto:timboconnor@...]
Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 1:31 PM


Do you mean you are boycotting the vendor, or just products lettered for
UP?
UP claims rights to C&NW, Rock Island, SSW, SP, D&RGW, WP, and many others
(dozens, in fact). If I refuse to buy from Red Caboose, Intermountain,
Athearn (now licensed), brass importers, and probably Atlas, Bachmann,
Broadway Ltd...
just who is left besides Westerfield and Sunshine?



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ADVERTISEMENT





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--
Yahoo! Groups Links

a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
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b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
STMFC-unsubscribe@...

c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.










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Pete Brown &#92;(YahooGroups&#92;) <YahooLists@...>
 

Jerry, those sports have licensed since day 1. UP and CSX are both going and
saying that trademarks they abandoned and tried their best to quash, are now
their property. They really should be considered public domain. The problem
is that no one has the money, time or cajones to fight them.

That would be a Heineken :-), and distributors are not licensed, IIRC,
unless they produce other things with the Heineken logo.

Someone mentioned Westerfield. Westerfield produces some Western Maryland
kits. WM is a trademark now claimed by CSX, even though Chessie and then CSX
did everything they could to eradicate the WM.

Pete

_____________________________________________________
 Pete Brown - Gambrills, MD (Near Annapolis)
 Visit my personal site : http://www.irritatedVowel.com
 (wallpaper, western maryland ry, .net, photography, model rr)

________________________________________
From: asychis@... [mailto:asychis@...]
Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 8:14 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: boy oh boycott

In a message dated 10/06/04 6:56:41 PM Central Standard Time,
dblake2996@... writes:
There are many of us on this list that are fans of other things.  Say
NASCAR,
NCAA athletics, pro sports, etc.etc.etc....If you purchase any protects from

any of these organizations you are paying a licensing fee to do so.
You bet.  This argument is SO OLD and SO TRITE!  My God, you'd think the UP
was causing prices to double!  I think I'll go drink a Hineken purchased
from a
licensed distributor.

Jerry Michels


Brian Paul Ehni <behni@...>
 

I wondered about ART as well. I wonder what the NS legal team thinks about
it.
--
Brian Ehni

From: Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...>
Reply-To: <STMFC@...>
Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2004 23:10:53 -0700
To: <STMFC@...>
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: boy oh boycott



My bad. But I forgot to list Missouri Pacific, Texas & Pacific,
Missouri-Kansas-Texas, Chicago & Eastern Illinois, American
Refrigerator Transit (Gee, does that include Wabash and N&W?)

Incredibly, I see that Testors is licensed too. Does UP claim
ownership of the colors used on its equipment?



UP DOES NOT claim rights to Rock Island. The trademarks and copyrights for
the RI are held by Maytag!
--
Brian Ehni


Tim O'Connor
 

My bad. But I forgot to list Missouri Pacific, Texas & Pacific,
Missouri-Kansas-Texas, Chicago & Eastern Illinois, American
Refrigerator Transit (Gee, does that include Wabash and N&W?)

Incredibly, I see that Testors is licensed too. Does UP claim
ownership of the colors used on its equipment?

UP DOES NOT claim rights to Rock Island. The trademarks and copyrights for
the RI are held by Maytag!
--
Brian Ehni


Greg Martin
 

Tim ask...

"Incredibly, I see that Testors is licensed too. Does UP claim
ownership of the colors used on its equipment?"

Yes and the terms "Harbor Mist", "Autum Brown", and "Amour Yellow" per my conversation with Brenda Mainwarning... Oct, 2003.

You folks haven't a clue what this Big Yellow Bear is up to... Dick Davidson's new "sling word" is "His Frnachise..."

We are in for more trouble than you can imagine with simple intimidation... I deal with them almost daily. I appeal to those who have not signed on to resist, they are in the legal wrong... I better stop this or Mike will kill me!

Greg Martin


Rev. Bob 'Bob' Crispen
 

The voices are telling me cf5250 said on 10/6/2004 3:30 PM:

Do you mean you are boycotting the vendor, or just products
lettered for UP? UP claims rights to C&NW, Rock Island, SSW,
SP, D&RGW, WP, and many others (dozens, in fact). If I refuse
to buy from Red Caboose, Intermountain, Athearn (now licensed),
brass importers, and probably Atlas, Bachmann, Broadway Ltd...
just who is left besides Westerfield and Sunshine?
A manufacturer has two choices: to charge more for the Union Pacific car or to "peanut butter" the license fees over his entire product line, whether the items have a UP logo or not.

It seems to me the manufacturer who keeps the cost with the item allows individuals to make up their own minds: if you want to run UP, pay the extra money so that some corporate officer at UP can get a fatter bonus. Perfectly straightforward.

But I can't see any justification for boycotting manufacturers unless they're trying to make all their customers contribute to the greedheads at UP by peanut buttering the cost over all their products.
--
Rev. Bob "Bob" Crispen
bob at crispen dot org
Ex Cathedra Weblog: http://blog.crispen.org/

Flexibility has its virtues. No one was more decisive than George
Armstrong Custer and the last thing that went through his mind was
an arrow. -- after Argus Hamilton


Thomas M. Olsen <tmolsen@...>
 

A better question to ask is what happens if the UP pulls the rug out
from any one of these manufacturers
60 days before their licenses run out by not renewing the license? From
what I have read of the terms of these agreements, is that if the
license is not renewed the manufacturer/vendor/importer has to
immediately dispose of their on hand stock and turn over the tooling to
the UP. How is any manufacturer going to justify the expense of
bringing anything to the market shelf when R&D on most model projects
can take as much as two to three years to complete.

This whole thing is ridiculous and if it continues, there will not be
any roads, either present day or fallen flag, that won't be covered by
these licenses because the big four railroads (UP, BNSF, CSX & NS) will
have covered 95% of all the roads that we model freight cars from.
Hopefully, the non-UP roads, if they go to licensing, will not carry
the "turn over the tooling" bit into these contracts, realizing that
that type of contract language is counterproductive to making anything
when the future has a cloud over it!.

Tom Olsen
7 Boundary Road, West Branch
Newark, Delaware, 19711-7479
(302) 738-4292
tmolsen@...

Rev. Bob 'Bob' Crispen wrote:

The voices are telling me cf5250 said on 10/6/2004 3:30 PM:



Do you mean you are boycotting the vendor, or just products
lettered for UP? UP claims rights to C&NW, Rock Island, SSW,
SP, D&RGW, WP, and many others (dozens, in fact). If I refuse
to buy from Red Caboose, Intermountain, Athearn (now licensed),
brass importers, and probably Atlas, Bachmann, Broadway Ltd...
just who is left besides Westerfield and Sunshine?

A manufacturer has two choices: to charge more for the Union Pacific car
or to "peanut butter" the license fees over his entire product line,
whether the items have a UP logo or not.

It seems to me the manufacturer who keeps the cost with the item allows
individuals to make up their own minds: if you want to run UP, pay the
extra money so that some corporate officer at UP can get a fatter bonus.
Perfectly straightforward.

But I can't see any justification for boycotting manufacturers unless
they're trying to make all their customers contribute to the greedheads
at UP by peanut buttering the cost over all their products.