I was building this kit and was going to decorate it for the NKP. However, the photo that I have of one of the NKP cars built in 1940 shows that they had round corner ends with W-section corner posts. The F&C kit has square corner posts. Does anyone know if the PM or WLE cars built in 1940 with 10 rib ends has square or W-section corner posts on the ends? I am beginning to think that the kit may not have a prototype, which is a rarity for resin.

Regards,
Ted Culotta

Ted, I thought NKP was the exception to the kit. The UP and CGW
cars clearly had square corner ends.

Ted, looking at the two pictures I have, I think I agree with Tim, they look like W-corners. The two pictures I have are NKP 20616 (former WLE) taken in 1956 in San Diego, and WLE 26016 in 1944 (Photo is not dated, but last reweighed on 11-1943.)

FYI in April of 1959 started to convert these to TOFC cars.

Brian Carlson

Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:

Ted, I thought NKP was the exception to the kit. The UP and CGW
cars clearly had square corner ends.

I was building this kit and was going to decorate it for the NKP.
However, the photo that I have of one of the NKP cars built in 1940
shows that they had round corner ends with W-section corner posts. The
F&C kit has square corner posts. Does anyone know if the PM or WLE
cars built in 1940 with 10 rib ends has square or W-section corner
posts on the ends? I am beginning to think that the kit may not have a
prototype, which is a rarity for resin.

Regards,
Ted Culotta

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I forgot to say that since the PM, NKP, and WLE all were members of the Advisory Mechanical Committee they probably had the same ends.

Also the notes in the article I have says both the NKP and WLE cars had Equipco hand brakes.

Brian Carlson

Brian Carlson <prrk41361@...> wrote:

Ted, looking at the two pictures I have, I think I agree with Tim, they look like W-corners. The two pictures I have are NKP 20616 (former WLE) taken in 1956 in San Diego, and WLE 26016 in 1944 (Photo is not dated, but last reweighed on 11-1943.)

FYI in April of 1959 started to convert these to TOFC cars.

Brian Carlson

Tim O'Connor wrote:

Ted, I thought NKP was the exception to the kit. The UP and CGW
cars clearly had square corner ends.

I was building this kit and was going to decorate it for the NKP.
However, the photo that I have of one of the NKP cars built in 1940
shows that they had round corner ends with W-section corner posts. The
F&C kit has square corner posts. Does anyone know if the PM or WLE
cars built in 1940 with 10 rib ends has square or W-section corner
posts on the ends? I am beginning to think that the kit may not have a
prototype, which is a rarity for resin.

Regards,
Ted Culotta

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On Nov 21, 2004, at 9:23 PM, Tim O'Connor wrote:

Ted, I thought NKP was the exception to the kit. The UP and CGW
cars clearly had square corner ends.

>I was building this kit and was going to decorate it for the NKP. 
>However, the photo that I have of one of the NKP cars built in 1940
>shows that they had round corner ends with W-section corner posts. 
The
>F&C kit has square corner posts.  Does anyone know if the PM or WLE
>cars built in 1940 with 10 rib ends has square or W-section corner
>posts on the ends?  I am beginning to think that the kit may not
have a
>prototype, which is a rarity for resin.

Yes, all of the cars built in 1938 had square cornered ends. The 1938
cars only had nine corrugations in the ends, excluding them as
prospects for the ten corrugation end kit (the CGW and UP are
reproduced by the nine rib end kit). What I was asking is whether the
ten corrugation end cars built in 1940, specifically the PM and WLE,
had square or round corner ends. It appears based upon Brian Carlson's
info that the WLE has also had round corner ends, making it unlikely
that the PM would have had square corner ends. I never thought I'd see
the day that I would have a resin kit without a prototype. Thank you
both for the info.

Regards,
Ted Culotta

I never thought I'd see the day that I would have a resin kit
without a prototype. Thank you both for the info.
Regards, Ted Culotta

Ted, talking to people at Naperville I have come to realize that
MANY resin kits have no prototype, depending on what features you
are interested in. Many Sunshine kits have incorrect doors, ends,
underframes, and even car widths. If you want a lesson in this it
pays to visit Byron Rose's workshop and look at his couple dozen
corrected resin models. They are unpainted so you can see all of
the changes he's made -- to both Sunshines and Westerfields.

I think Stan sells both styles of Pullman end as separate parts,
so you can at least salvage your kit...

Tim O.

Ted Culotta writes:

I was building this kit and was going to decorate it for the NKP.
However, the photo that I have of one of the NKP cars built in 1940
shows that they had round corner ends with W-section corner posts. The
F&C kit has square corner posts. Does anyone know if the PM or WLE
cars built in 1940 with 10 rib ends has square or W-section corner
posts on the ends?

I have two photos of WLE 26000 series cars showing square cornered ten rib
ends.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520

BTW I Was wondering, who coined the term PS-0. I assume it was coined by modelers/historians similar to phases or diesels.

Brian carlson

Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@...> wrote:
Ted Culotta writes:

I was building this kit and was going to decorate it for the NKP.
However, the photo that I have of one of the NKP cars built in 1940
shows that they had round corner ends with W-section corner posts. The
F&C kit has square corner posts. Does anyone know if the PM or WLE
cars built in 1940 with 10 rib ends has square or W-section corner
posts on the ends?

I have two photos of WLE 26000 series cars showing square cornered ten rib
ends.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520



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I myself blame John Nehrich :o) but I'm not sure if that is fair.

Brian Carlson asked:
"BTW I Was wondering, who coined the term PS-0. I assume it was coined by
modelers/historians similar to phases or diesels."

It was coined by John Nehrich c. 1987, who reasoned that since the pre-war
Pullman cars pre-dated the PS-1, "PS-Zero" would be a catchy term to
describe these cars.


Ben Hom

Ted Culotta asked:
"What I was asking is whether the ten corrugation end cars built in 1940,
specifically the PM and WLE, had square or round corner ends. It appears
based upon Brian Carlson's info that the WLE has also had round corner ends,
making it unlikely
that the PM would have had square corner ends."

I checked Million/Paton's _Pere Marquette Revenue Freight Cars_ - there's a
photo of PM 84000 on page 121, clearly showing square corner ends.


Ben Hom

On Nov 22, 2004, at 8:11 PM, Benjamin Hom wrote:

Ted Culotta asked:
"What I was asking is whether the ten corrugation end cars built in
1940,
specifically the PM and WLE, had square or round corner ends.  It
appears
based upon Brian Carlson's info that the WLE has also had round corner ends,
making it unlikely
that the PM would have had square corner ends."

I checked Million/Paton's _Pere Marquette Revenue Freight Cars_ -
there's a
photo of PM 84000 on page 121, clearly showing square corner ends.

I have now seen photos of an NKP (20177 - Jay Williams), WLE (26016 -
Bob's) and the one referenced by Ben above. They are all round corners
and the indicator of the round corners is that the tapers of the
corrugations extend around the corners on the round corners (as on
these 1940 built NKP, WLE and PM cars) while they terminate before the
corner on square corner ends. The NKP photo really illustrates this
extremely well. They are the same type of end, save riveting vs.
welding to join the two panels, as used on the WLE and TC 1937 AAR box
cars built in 1941.

Regards,
Ted Culotta

OK, it seems that the round or square corner designation for PS-0's is slightly different than on AAR 1937 dreadnaught end. For AAR 1937 ends the round vs. square is the actual shape of the corner of the end. However, for the PS-0 cars the difference between the round and square ends is whether or not the end ribs wrap around the ends.

Am I correct in this line of thinking? Can someone point me to a photo of a square end PS-0.
Brian Carlson
Ted Culotta <tculotta@...> wrote:
On Nov 22, 2004, at 8:11 PM, Benjamin Hom wrote:

Ted Culotta asked:
"What I was asking is whether the ten corrugation end cars built in
1940,
specifically the PM and WLE, had square or round corner ends. It
appears
based upon Brian Carlson's info that the WLE has also had round
corner ends,
making it unlikely
that the PM would have had square corner ends."

I checked Million/Paton's _Pere Marquette Revenue Freight Cars_ -
there's a
photo of PM 84000 on page 121, clearly showing square corner ends.

I have now seen photos of an NKP (20177 - Jay Williams), WLE (26016 -
Bob's) and the one referenced by Ben above. They are all round corners
and the indicator of the round corners is that the tapers of the
corrugations extend around the corners on the round corners (as on
these 1940 built NKP, WLE and PM cars) while they terminate before the
corner on square corner ends. The NKP photo really illustrates this
extremely well. They are the same type of end, save riveting vs.
welding to join the two panels, as used on the WLE and TC 1937 AAR box
cars built in 1941.

Regards,
Ted Culotta


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On Nov 22, 2004, at 9:11 PM, Brian Carlson wrote:

OK, it seems that the round or square corner designation for PS-0's is slightly different than on AAR 1937 dreadnaught end. For AAR 1937 ends the round vs. square is the actual shape of the corner of the end. However, for the PS-0 cars the difference between the round and square ends is whether or not the end ribs wrap around the ends.

Am I correct in this line of thinking? Can someone point me to a photo of a square end PS-0.

Brian:

No, it is the same concept as in Dreadnaught ends. I have uploaded a composite of the NKP PS-0 round corner end and one from a TC 1937 AAR box car. Both have the same round corner and I have to assume that like the TC box car, the PS-0 also has W-section corner posts since they were stronger. By the way, these ends were called Carbuilders' ends in the PM diagram. This term was used by the ARA and AAR to describe alternate permissible components that could be used in construction of standard designs.

The photo is in the STMFPH group (I couldn't add it to the files of STMFC as they are full) at:
http://f6.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/ YEKjQUFus0QFYJYQh4SGakO9dXe8MdjaC0x1i78jqcsWVFsWroBGmZERIpHzHrUZ_ozKB8Lm Q8rMQGNla4VJv8sgkUgW/round-corner-carbuilders-end.jpg

Note that this link wraps and needs to be cut and pasted into your browser.

Regards,
Ted Culotta

On Nov 23, 2004, at 6:36 AM, Ted Culotta wrote:

The photo is in the STMFPH group (I couldn't add it to the files of 
STMFC as they are full) at:
http://f6.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/

YEKjQUFus0QFYJYQh4SGakO9dXe8MdjaC0x1i78jqcsWVFsWroBGmZERIpHzHrUZ_ozKB8L
m
Q8rMQGNla4VJv8sgkUgW/round-corner-carbuilders-end.jpg

This link doesn't work. Go to the Files section of STMFPH and the name
of the file is round-corner-carbuilders-end.jpg.

Regards,
Ted Culotta

Speedwitch Media
100 14th Avenue, San Mateo, CA 94402
info@...
www.speedwitch.com
(650) 787-1912

Tim, I looked at the list of stan's parts on Ted's Steam Era Freight Cars website and it doesn't list these ends, do you have a newer listing which shows these parts, or were just getting my hopes up.

Brian carlson

Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:

I never thought I'd see the day that I would have a resin kit
without a prototype. Thank you both for the info.
Regards, Ted Culotta

Ted, talking to people at Naperville I have come to realize that
MANY resin kits have no prototype, depending on what features you
are interested in. Many Sunshine kits have incorrect doors, ends,
underframes, and even car widths. If you want a lesson in this it
pays to visit Byron Rose's workshop and look at his couple dozen
corrected resin models. They are unpainted so you can see all of
the changes he's made -- to both Sunshines and Westerfields.

I think Stan sells both styles of Pullman end as separate parts,
so you can at least salvage your kit...

Tim O.



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tim, I looked at the list of stan's parts on Ted's Steam Era Freight Cars website and it doesn't list these ends, do you have a newer listing which shows these parts, or were just getting my hopes up.
Brian carlson

Brian, the list shows "Pullman Standard 5/5" and "4/5" ends... I think
those are the ends you're interested in.

--- In STMFC@..., Brian Carlson <prrk41361@y...> wrote:

Tim, I looked at the list of stan's parts on Ted's Steam Era

Freight Cars website and it doesn't list these ends, do you have a
newer listing which shows these parts, or were just getting my hopes
up.

Brian carlson

Brian, Stan does sell these ends. I have built cars with both height
ends.
Clark Propst
Mason City Iowa

Brian
You can contact Stan Rydarowicz through me. I go to Naperville with Stan and
John Greenof Bethlehem Car Works. I see him most Saturdays and I'll tell
him what you want