Date
1 - 20 of 31
Freight Tariffs
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raildata@...
We have a ton of Freight Tariffs at the Colo RR Museum.
Aside from some lawyers who show up once in a while to use them there seems tob e no obvious use for them or info contained in them. Chuck Yungkurth Boulder CO
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raildata@...
No question that the freight traiffs will be preserved in Colo RR Museum.
Question is how many more should we accumulate when already pressed for archival storage space. My only point is that we almost never have requests for them. Chuck Y Boulder CO
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Gene Green <lgreen@...>
Included in a lot of stuff I bought on eBay was a bunch of
supplements to Freight Tariffs. At first I was just going to throw them away but then I thought I'd put them on eBay and see what they would bring. Today I thumbed through them to get an idea of what they were so I could write a description. When I first glanced at them they looked as indecipherable as Chinese arithmetic but perhaps these things have some use for a model railroader. Most are dated 1956, 1957 or 1958. One item, dated July 1, 1965, sure to be of interest "contains a list of firms receiving carload shipments under weight agreement, showing commodities covered. Also, a list of stations and firms receiving carload shipments of grain, seeds, soybeans, etc. under official weight status in order to avoid unnecessary track scale weighing, waybills covering such shipments should be noted by issuing agent: 'Do not weight, Destination Weights applicable'." States included are Arkansas, Colorado, Idaho, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Louisiana, Michigan, Minnesota, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, New Mexico, North and South Dakota, Oklahoma, Oregon, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Wisconsin, and Wyoming. Commodities included are grain and related articles, iron or steel scrap, pulpwood, cotton, cottonseed, hides, pelts, tallow, wool, beets, raw sugar, beans & peas, ores & concentrates, dried vegetables, scrap paper, acid & gases, logs, fibres (sic) and more. To give an example, the Ralston Purina Co. In Iowa Falls, Iowa receives grain, grain products, soybeans, feed, limestone, molasses NOIBN, oils, phosphate rock and tallow but not livestock. (NOIBN occurs here and there throughout and I have no idea what it means.) Section 2 lists only those stations and companies receiving livestock. Section 3 lists only those stations and companies receiving grain and related products. This 1965 item is clean enough that good scans should result in case anyone is interested. My question is, is there anyone in this group who has experience using Freight Tariffs either in the real world or as an adjunct to modeling? Gene Green
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DRGW482@...
In a message dated 1/3/2005 9:16:54 P.M. Central Standard Time,
raildata@... writes: No question that the freight traiffs will be preserved in Colo RR Museum. Question is how many more should we accumulate when already pressed for archival storage space. My only point is that we almost never have requests for them. Chuck Y Boulder CO I think they are actually fun to read... Well, you don't want to read them as a standard reference book or you'd go nuts! Same with station listings or shippers guides. I never knew what people are actually shipping! For folks that really want to have traffic, they are neat! Sounds like I'm the only idiot who actually paid money to get two... Several years ago only a few people knew what ORERs are about. Now you buy them on CDs. Sanborn maps... how many folks used them for railroad research 10 years ago? Car Builders Cyclopedias. Even 10 years ago I purchased several for under significantly $100. Watch the prices go for them on Ebay... The tariffs are not nearly as informative as the stuff listed above, but it's part of the whole picture... Martin
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Park Varieties <parkvarieties@...>
NOIBN is Not Otherwise Indicated By Name.
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Frank Brua
----- Original Message -----
From: Gene Green To: STMFC@... Sent: Monday, January 03, 2005 5:35 PM Subject: [STMFC] Freight Tariffs Included in a lot of stuff I bought on eBay was a bunch of supplements to Freight Tariffs. At first I was just going to throw them away but then I thought I'd put them on eBay and see what they would bring. Today I thumbed through them to get an idea of what they were so I could write a description. When I first glanced at them they looked as indecipherable as Chinese arithmetic but perhaps these things have some use for a model railroader. Most are dated 1956, 1957 or 1958. One item, dated July 1, 1965, sure to be of interest "contains a list of firms receiving carload shipments under weight agreement, showing commodities covered. Also, a list of stations and firms receiving carload shipments of grain, seeds, soybeans, etc. under official weight status in order to avoid unnecessary track scale weighing, waybills covering such shipments should be noted by issuing agent: 'Do not weight, Destination Weights applicable'." States included are Arkansas, Colorado, Idaho, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Louisiana, Michigan, Minnesota, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, New Mexico, North and South Dakota, Oklahoma, Oregon, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Wisconsin, and Wyoming. Commodities included are grain and related articles, iron or steel scrap, pulpwood, cotton, cottonseed, hides, pelts, tallow, wool, beets, raw sugar, beans & peas, ores & concentrates, dried vegetables, scrap paper, acid & gases, logs, fibres (sic) and more. To give an example, the Ralston Purina Co. In Iowa Falls, Iowa receives grain, grain products, soybeans, feed, limestone, molasses NOIBN, oils, phosphate rock and tallow but not livestock. (NOIBN occurs here and there throughout and I have no idea what it means.) Section 2 lists only those stations and companies receiving livestock. Section 3 lists only those stations and companies receiving grain and related products. This 1965 item is clean enough that good scans should result in case anyone is interested. My question is, is there anyone in this group who has experience using Freight Tariffs either in the real world or as an adjunct to modeling? Gene Green Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/STMFC/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: STMFC-unsubscribe@... c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
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Greg Martin
The Chineese math is that the rates are figured in per hundred weight.
And Frank explained the NOIBN quite well. The old tariffs are intersting and do help if your industry is listed... otherwise... Greg Martin
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Rob Kirkham <rdkirkham@...>
I would like to advocate that no matter what, the tariff materials not be sent to the local landfill. I am not sure freight car modellers will ever care about these documents, but they might.
While I have no strong desire to master the subject, I think tariff's are a potentially important source of info that could be used to analyse the transportation of goods throughout North American and even globally. Its a vast subject, and to date my only reading on it has related to the tariff's controlling traffic moving on railways within Canada. Disputes over tariffs were taken first to the Board of Railway Commissioners of Canada (later, "Transport Commissioners") for determination. Some of their decisions were the subject of judicial review by the superior Courts. Others were appealed up through the appellate Courts. These Canadian tariff cases often made the news - either the daily press or in industrial publications. Some became the subject of Royal Commissions or inquiries. All of this means written descriptions of who wanted what; who said what; etc. In other words, these decisions provide lengthy descriptions of railway traffic and the business folks affected by it. In my experience these discussions are a useful (if hard to access) source of info about market conditions and places and industries served by rail. I am sure there were equivalent bodies in the United States during our era, and perhaps this is old news to many on this list. What I've noted from reading these cases is that often quirky rates were set that made little sense apart from the broader economic and political context. So for anyone who wishes to expend the effort to learn about and understand tariffs, the quirks and the changes to the tariffs over time can provide helpful clues about broader issues. I expect this will include information about rail service to industry - information relevant to the movement of freight cars. The study of such things probably belongs more to economic historians than modellers, but we modellers benefit from this type of research. Remember that historians tend to do research where there is date to be researched. So I suggest that preserving this sort of information is fairly important. Long term, I know. Just my two cents. Rob Kirkham We have a ton of Freight Tariffs at the Colo RR Museum. Aside from some lawyers who show up once in a while to use them there seems tob e no obvious use for them or info contained in them. Chuck Yungkurth Boulder CO
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Bob Webber <zephyr1@...>
I was there last summer when there was a case where someone was looking up a tariff for a case and literally the ONLY place they could find the answer was the CRRM - not Northwestern, not the Archives, not CARRM, no where. So people do come in and ask - but very seldom.
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At 09:14 PM 1/3/2005, you wrote:
No question that the freight traiffs will be preserved in Colo RR Museum.
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Schuyler Larrabee
NOIBN
Not Otherwise Identified By Name SGL
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CBarkan@...
I assume that these are rather old, consequently I am hard pressed to
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understand what these recent "cases" are about and how these tarrifs have any significance. Anyone care to elaborate? Thanks, Chris
In a message dated 1/3/05 9:23:48 PM, zephyr1@... writes:
<< I was there last summer when there was a case where someone was looking up a tariff for a case and literally the ONLY place they could find the answer was the CRRM - not Northwestern, not the Archives, not CARRM, no where. So people do come in and ask - but very seldom.>>
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asychis@...
In a message dated 1/4/2005 1:33:42 PM Central Standard Time,
ljack70117@... writes: a lot of truckers when looking for a load home would offer a cut rat to get a load Damn! Is this like doctors' accepting chickens as pay? :^) Sorry about this, Larry, all in jest, but I just couldn't resist. Looks like my own kind of error! Jerry Michels
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Bob Webber <zephyr1@...>
I can't recall the specifics, but it had to do with "rebates" and such going back more than 30 years, and I believe it may have had something to do with a price fixing aspect of shipping (and to prove that at some point that there were alternates that cost less).
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At 06:48 AM 1/4/2005, CBarkan@... wrote:
I assume that these are rather old, consequently I am hard pressed to
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Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
Bob Webber wrote:
I can't recall the specifics, but it had to do with "rebates" and suchGee, rebates have been illegal now for almost 100 years. Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@... Publishers of books on railroad history
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Bob Webber <zephyr1@...>
Which is why I put it in quotes and why they were checking on it after the fact.
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At 11:37 AM 1/4/2005, you wrote:
Bob Webber wrote:I can't recall the specifics, but it had to do with "rebates" and suchGee, rebates have been illegal now for almost 100 years.
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Jerry <jrs060@...>
--- In STMFC@..., "Gene Green" <lgreen@e...> wrote:
"Included in a lot of stuff I bought on eBay was a bunch of supplements to Freight Tariffs. At first I was just going to throw them away but then I thought I'd put them on eBay and see what they would bring. Today I thumbed through them to get an idea of what they were so I could write a description. When I first glanced at them they looked as indecipherable as Chinese arithmetic but perhaps these things have some use for a model railroader. My question is, is there anyone in this group who has experience using Freight Tariffs either in the real world or as an adjunct to modeling?" Gene, I was a grade "A" reviser for about 5 years and worked with this stuff all the time. And yes, it would seem like "Chinese arithmetic" if you did not know how to use a freight tariff. It was done that way on purpose by the railroads so shippers would not be able to dispute a freight bill unless thay too knew what they were looking at! For the model railroader thay are just about useless, and the mechanics of using them are way too involved to try an explain here. About the only thing that I use from that part of my railroad career is the "Route Guide" tariffs, as I do know how to waybill and route cars correctly, and it dose make for some very correct model paper work and routings. But again, I should caution you, it's very involved and it really is all about making a profit in railroad industry as well as saving money as a shipper. In short, you can make an entire career out of working with that stuff, and you do not want to go there if you are just a model railroader. You are just not going to get that much out of your time investment to learn the freight rate side of it. Regards, Jerry Stewart Chicago, Ill.
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buchwaldfam <duff@...>
Not to go into the nitty-gritty of Chinese arithmatic, but....
In general terms, how were shippers charged for the railroad's services. In particular, a shipper has 3/4ths of a 1944 box car volume worth of widgets, but the railroad supplies a 1923 built 8 1/2 foot tall car, which gets filled to the rim with the same number of widgets. Do the shippers get charged for "a car and up to 50 tons times X number of miles", for "volume times weight times miles", or what? Same thing applies to grain shipments (actually, the photos in the 1932 ARA box car book which show the different lines on the inside lining, for different grain types, is what got me thinking about this!) A "high level" explanation of how this worked might help making more realistic car assignments during an operating session. Thanks! Phil Buchwald --- In STMFC@..., "Jerry" <jrs060@m...> wrote: throw them away but then I thought I'd put them on eBay and see whatthey would bring. Today I thumbed through them to get an idea ofwhat they were so I could write a description.to modeling?"
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Phil,
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I think tariffs were based on commodity and weight per carload, and of course, source and destination. Changing the rules to be more flexible as cars got larger, and railroads wanted to offer multi-car discounts, was the subject of the huge "Big John" hopper case in the 1960's. Tariffs were published and anyone could offer them. For example, a railroad from A-B might have the best route, but any other competitor serving A and B also could offer the same rate, even if that meant going A-C-D-B. So routings were often seemingly bizarre, involving hundreds of extra miles (if not thousands). The SP brought Oregon lumber down through Texas and up via the Cotton Belt to St Louis, rather than short-haul itself via Ogden and the UP. The all-SP route was hundreds of miles further, but UP could offer no advantage on rates -- only service. Tim
In general terms, how were shippers charged for the railroad's
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Schuyler Larrabee
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-----Original Message-----A good friend of mine was a salesman for the ERIE in, among other places, Dallas, Texas. He was quite successful. One of his customers liked him, and the service he got at the other end, so his shipments were routed from Texas to Chicago, to suburban NYC in NJ, so as to "reward" the ERIE with a substantial portion of the road haul, which otherwise would only have been something like 20 miles if done on "logical" routings. SGL
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Randy Williamson <pennsy@...>
At 01:50 PM 1/22/2005, you wrote:
I think tariffs were based on commodity and weight per carload,~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I have a AC&Y westbound routing guide from the 1960's. Most of the routes shown include an interchange with the N&W at one end to an interchange with the N&W at the other end. Can the savings be that large compared with the switching charges at both ends? Randy
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ljack70117@...
On Saturday, January 22, 2005, at 05:39 PM, Randy Williamson wrote:
I have a AC&Y westbound routing guide from the 1960's. Most of the routesI under stood the switching charge was paid by the road haul that handed the car to the switching road. When I was on the UPRR at Salina Ks we would haul wheat to Salina and interchange it to the MOP for a flour mill on the MOP in Salina. There was no Road haul for the MOP. They charged the UPRR for the switch. Thank you Larry Jackman ljack70117@... Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he will sit in a boat all day drinking beer.
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