Freight Tariffs


raildata@...
 

We have a ton of Freight Tariffs at the Colo RR Museum.

Aside from some lawyers who show up once in a while to use them there seems
tob e no obvious use for them or info contained in them.

Chuck Yungkurth
Boulder CO


raildata@...
 

No question that the freight traiffs will be preserved in Colo RR Museum.
Question is how many more should we accumulate when already pressed for archival
storage space.

My only point is that we almost never have requests for them.

Chuck Y
Boulder CO


Gene Green <lgreen@...>
 

Included in a lot of stuff I bought on eBay was a bunch of
supplements to Freight Tariffs. At first I was just going to throw
them away but then I thought I'd put them on eBay and see what they
would bring. Today I thumbed through them to get an idea of what
they were so I could write a description.

When I first glanced at them they looked as indecipherable as Chinese
arithmetic but perhaps these things have some use for a model
railroader. Most are dated 1956, 1957 or 1958.

One item, dated July 1, 1965, sure to be of interest "contains a
list of firms receiving carload shipments under weight agreement,
showing commodities covered. Also, a list of stations and firms
receiving carload shipments of grain, seeds, soybeans, etc. under
official weight status in order to avoid unnecessary track scale
weighing, waybills covering such shipments should be noted by issuing
agent: 'Do not weight, Destination Weights applicable'."

States included are Arkansas, Colorado, Idaho, Illinois, Indiana,
Iowa, Kansas, Louisiana, Michigan, Minnesota, Missouri, Montana,
Nebraska, New Mexico, North and South Dakota, Oklahoma, Oregon,
Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Wisconsin, and Wyoming. Commodities included
are grain and related articles, iron or steel scrap, pulpwood,
cotton, cottonseed, hides, pelts, tallow, wool, beets, raw sugar,
beans & peas, ores & concentrates, dried vegetables, scrap paper,
acid & gases, logs, fibres (sic) and more. To give an example, the
Ralston Purina Co. In Iowa Falls, Iowa receives grain, grain
products, soybeans, feed, limestone, molasses NOIBN, oils, phosphate
rock and tallow but not livestock. (NOIBN occurs here and there
throughout and I have no idea what it means.)

Section 2 lists only those stations and companies receiving
livestock. Section 3 lists only those stations and companies
receiving grain and related products. This 1965 item is clean enough
that good scans should result in case anyone is interested.

My question is, is there anyone in this group who has experience
using Freight Tariffs either in the real world or as an adjunct to
modeling?

Gene Green


DRGW482@...
 

In a message dated 1/3/2005 9:16:54 P.M. Central Standard Time,
raildata@... writes:

No question that the freight traiffs will be preserved in Colo RR Museum.
Question is how many more should we accumulate when already pressed for
archival
storage space.

My only point is that we almost never have requests for them.

Chuck Y
Boulder CO



I think they are actually fun to read... Well, you don't want to read them
as a standard reference book or you'd go nuts! Same with station listings or
shippers guides.

I never knew what people are actually shipping! For folks that really want
to have traffic, they are neat!
Sounds like I'm the only idiot who actually paid money to get two...

Several years ago only a few people knew what ORERs are about. Now you buy
them on CDs. Sanborn maps... how many folks used them for railroad research 10
years ago? Car Builders Cyclopedias. Even 10 years ago I purchased several
for under significantly $100. Watch the prices go for them on Ebay...

The tariffs are not nearly as informative as the stuff listed above, but
it's part of the whole picture...

Martin


Park Varieties <parkvarieties@...>
 

NOIBN is Not Otherwise Indicated By Name.
Frank Brua

----- Original Message -----
From: Gene Green
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Monday, January 03, 2005 5:35 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Freight Tariffs



Included in a lot of stuff I bought on eBay was a bunch of
supplements to Freight Tariffs. At first I was just going to throw
them away but then I thought I'd put them on eBay and see what they
would bring. Today I thumbed through them to get an idea of what
they were so I could write a description.

When I first glanced at them they looked as indecipherable as Chinese
arithmetic but perhaps these things have some use for a model
railroader. Most are dated 1956, 1957 or 1958.

One item, dated July 1, 1965, sure to be of interest "contains a
list of firms receiving carload shipments under weight agreement,
showing commodities covered. Also, a list of stations and firms
receiving carload shipments of grain, seeds, soybeans, etc. under
official weight status in order to avoid unnecessary track scale
weighing, waybills covering such shipments should be noted by issuing
agent: 'Do not weight, Destination Weights applicable'."

States included are Arkansas, Colorado, Idaho, Illinois, Indiana,
Iowa, Kansas, Louisiana, Michigan, Minnesota, Missouri, Montana,
Nebraska, New Mexico, North and South Dakota, Oklahoma, Oregon,
Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Wisconsin, and Wyoming. Commodities included
are grain and related articles, iron or steel scrap, pulpwood,
cotton, cottonseed, hides, pelts, tallow, wool, beets, raw sugar,
beans & peas, ores & concentrates, dried vegetables, scrap paper,
acid & gases, logs, fibres (sic) and more. To give an example, the
Ralston Purina Co. In Iowa Falls, Iowa receives grain, grain
products, soybeans, feed, limestone, molasses NOIBN, oils, phosphate
rock and tallow but not livestock. (NOIBN occurs here and there
throughout and I have no idea what it means.)

Section 2 lists only those stations and companies receiving
livestock. Section 3 lists only those stations and companies
receiving grain and related products. This 1965 item is clean enough
that good scans should result in case anyone is interested.

My question is, is there anyone in this group who has experience
using Freight Tariffs either in the real world or as an adjunct to
modeling?

Gene Green






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Greg Martin
 

The Chineese math is that the rates are figured in per hundred weight.

And Frank explained the NOIBN quite well. The old tariffs are intersting and do help if your industry is listed... otherwise...

Greg Martin


Rob Kirkham <rdkirkham@...>
 

I would like to advocate that no matter what, the tariff materials not be sent to the local landfill. I am not sure freight car modellers will ever care about these documents, but they might.

While I have no strong desire to master the subject, I think tariff's are a potentially important source of info that could be used to analyse the transportation of goods throughout North American and even globally.

Its a vast subject, and to date my only reading on it has related to the tariff's controlling traffic moving on railways within Canada. Disputes over tariffs were taken first to the Board of Railway Commissioners of Canada (later, "Transport Commissioners") for determination. Some of their decisions were the subject of judicial review by the superior Courts. Others were appealed up through the appellate Courts. These Canadian tariff cases often made the news - either the daily press or in industrial publications. Some became the subject of Royal Commissions or inquiries. All of this means written descriptions of who wanted what; who said what; etc. In other words, these decisions provide lengthy descriptions of railway traffic and the business folks affected by it. In my experience these discussions are a useful (if hard to access) source of info about market conditions and places and industries served by rail. I am sure there were equivalent bodies in the United States during our era, and perhaps this is old news to many on this list.

What I've noted from reading these cases is that often quirky rates were set that made little sense apart from the broader economic and political context. So for anyone who wishes to expend the effort to learn about and understand tariffs, the quirks and the changes to the tariffs over time can provide helpful clues about broader issues. I expect this will include information about rail service to industry - information relevant to the movement of freight cars.

The study of such things probably belongs more to economic historians than modellers, but we modellers benefit from this type of research. Remember that historians tend to do research where there is date to be researched. So I suggest that preserving this sort of information is fairly important. Long term, I know.

Just my two cents.

Rob Kirkham
We have a ton of Freight Tariffs at the Colo RR Museum.

Aside from some lawyers who show up once in a while to use them there seems
tob e no obvious use for them or info contained in them.

Chuck Yungkurth
Boulder CO


Bob Webber <zephyr1@...>
 

I was there last summer when there was a case where someone was looking up a tariff for a case and literally the ONLY place they could find the answer was the CRRM - not Northwestern, not the Archives, not CARRM, no where. So people do come in and ask - but very seldom.

At 09:14 PM 1/3/2005, you wrote:

No question that the freight traiffs will be preserved in Colo RR Museum.
Question is how many more should we accumulate when already pressed for archival
storage space.

My only point is that we almost never have requests for them.

Chuck Y
Boulder CO


Schuyler Larrabee
 

NOIBN

Not
Otherwise
Identified
By
Name


SGL


CBarkan@...
 

I assume that these are rather old, consequently I am hard pressed to
understand what these recent "cases" are about and how these tarrifs have any
significance. Anyone care to elaborate?

Thanks, Chris

In a message dated 1/3/05 9:23:48 PM, zephyr1@... writes:

<< I was there last summer when there was a case where someone was looking up
a tariff for a case and literally the ONLY place they could find the answer
was the CRRM - not Northwestern, not the Archives, not CARRM, no where. So
people do come in and ask - but very seldom.>>


asychis@...
 

In a message dated 1/4/2005 1:33:42 PM Central Standard Time,
ljack70117@... writes:
a lot of truckers when
looking for a load home would offer a cut rat to get a load
Damn! Is this like doctors' accepting chickens as pay? :^)

Sorry about this, Larry, all in jest, but I just couldn't resist. Looks like
my own kind of error!

Jerry Michels


Bob Webber <zephyr1@...>
 

I can't recall the specifics, but it had to do with "rebates" and such going back more than 30 years, and I believe it may have had something to do with a price fixing aspect of shipping (and to prove that at some point that there were alternates that cost less).

At 06:48 AM 1/4/2005, CBarkan@... wrote:
I assume that these are rather old, consequently I am hard pressed to
understand what these recent "cases" are about and how these tarrifs have any
significance. Anyone care to elaborate?

Thanks, Chris

In a message dated 1/3/05 9:23:48 PM, zephyr1@... writes:

<< I was there last summer when there was a case where someone was looking up
a tariff for a case and literally the ONLY place they could find the answer
was the CRRM - not Northwestern, not the Archives, not CARRM, no where. So
people do come in and ask - but very seldom.>>


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Bob Webber wrote:
I can't recall the specifics, but it had to do with "rebates" and such
going back more than 30 years, and I believe it may have had something to
do with a price fixing aspect of shipping (and to prove that at some point
that there were alternates that cost less).
Gee, rebates have been illegal now for almost 100 years.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Bob Webber <zephyr1@...>
 

Which is why I put it in quotes and why they were checking on it after the fact.

At 11:37 AM 1/4/2005, you wrote:

Bob Webber wrote:
I can't recall the specifics, but it had to do with "rebates" and such
going back more than 30 years, and I believe it may have had something
to
do with a price fixing aspect of shipping (and to prove that at some
point
that there were alternates that cost less).
Gee, rebates have been illegal now for almost 100 years.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history




Yahoo! Groups Links




Jerry <jrs060@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Gene Green" <lgreen@e...> wrote:

"Included in a lot of stuff I bought on eBay was a bunch of
supplements to Freight Tariffs. At first I was just going to throw
them away but then I thought I'd put them on eBay and see what they
would bring. Today I thumbed through them to get an idea of what
they were so I could write a description.
When I first glanced at them they looked as indecipherable as
Chinese arithmetic but perhaps these things have some use for a
model railroader.
My question is, is there anyone in this group who has experience
using Freight Tariffs either in the real world or as an adjunct to
modeling?"


Gene, I was a grade "A" reviser for about 5 years and worked
with this stuff all the time. And yes, it would seem like
"Chinese arithmetic" if you did not know how to use a freight
tariff. It was done that way on purpose by the railroads so
shippers would not be able to dispute a freight bill unless
thay too knew what they were looking at!
For the model railroader thay are just about useless, and
the mechanics of using them are way too involved to try an
explain here. About the only thing that I use from that part
of my railroad career is the "Route Guide" tariffs, as I
do know how to waybill and route cars correctly, and it dose
make for some very correct model paper work and routings.
But again, I should caution you, it's very involved and it
really is all about making a profit in railroad industry
as well as saving money as a shipper.
In short, you can make an entire career out of working with
that stuff, and you do not want to go there if you are just a
model railroader. You are just not going to get that much out
of your time investment to learn the freight rate side of it.

Regards,

Jerry Stewart
Chicago, Ill.


buchwaldfam <duff@...>
 

Not to go into the nitty-gritty of Chinese arithmatic, but....

In general terms, how were shippers charged for the railroad's
services. In particular, a shipper has 3/4ths of a 1944 box car
volume worth of widgets, but the railroad supplies a 1923 built 8
1/2 foot tall car, which gets filled to the rim with the same number
of widgets. Do the shippers get charged for "a car and up to 50 tons
times X number of miles", for "volume times weight times miles", or
what? Same thing applies to grain shipments (actually, the photos in
the 1932 ARA box car book which show the different lines on the
inside lining, for different grain types, is what got me thinking
about this!)

A "high level" explanation of how this worked might help making more
realistic car assignments during an operating session.

Thanks!

Phil Buchwald


--- In STMFC@..., "Jerry" <jrs060@m...> wrote:

--- In STMFC@..., "Gene Green" <lgreen@e...> wrote:

"Included in a lot of stuff I bought on eBay was a bunch of
supplements to Freight Tariffs. At first I was just going to
throw
them away but then I thought I'd put them on eBay and see what
they
would bring. Today I thumbed through them to get an idea of
what
they were so I could write a description.
When I first glanced at them they looked as indecipherable as
Chinese arithmetic but perhaps these things have some use for a
model railroader.
My question is, is there anyone in this group who has experience
using Freight Tariffs either in the real world or as an adjunct
to
modeling?"


Gene, I was a grade "A" reviser for about 5 years and worked
with this stuff all the time. And yes, it would seem like
"Chinese arithmetic" if you did not know how to use a freight
tariff. It was done that way on purpose by the railroads so
shippers would not be able to dispute a freight bill unless
thay too knew what they were looking at!
For the model railroader thay are just about useless, and
the mechanics of using them are way too involved to try an
explain here. About the only thing that I use from that part
of my railroad career is the "Route Guide" tariffs, as I
do know how to waybill and route cars correctly, and it dose
make for some very correct model paper work and routings.
But again, I should caution you, it's very involved and it
really is all about making a profit in railroad industry
as well as saving money as a shipper.
In short, you can make an entire career out of working with
that stuff, and you do not want to go there if you are just a
model railroader. You are just not going to get that much out
of your time investment to learn the freight rate side of it.

Regards,

Jerry Stewart
Chicago, Ill.


Tim O'Connor
 

Phil,

I think tariffs were based on commodity and weight per carload,
and of course, source and destination. Changing the rules to be
more flexible as cars got larger, and railroads wanted to offer
multi-car discounts, was the subject of the huge "Big John"
hopper case in the 1960's. Tariffs were published and anyone
could offer them. For example, a railroad from A-B might have
the best route, but any other competitor serving A and B also
could offer the same rate, even if that meant going A-C-D-B.
So routings were often seemingly bizarre, involving hundreds
of extra miles (if not thousands). The SP brought Oregon lumber
down through Texas and up via the Cotton Belt to St Louis, rather
than short-haul itself via Ogden and the UP. The all-SP route
was hundreds of miles further, but UP could offer no advantage
on rates -- only service.

Tim

In general terms, how were shippers charged for the railroad's
services. In particular, a shipper has 3/4ths of a 1944 box car
volume worth of widgets, but the railroad supplies a 1923 built 8
1/2 foot tall car, which gets filled to the rim with the same number
of widgets. Do the shippers get charged for "a car and up to 50 tons
times X number of miles", for "volume times weight times miles", or
what? Same thing applies to grain shipments (actually, the photos in
the 1932 ARA box car book which show the different lines on the
inside lining, for different grain types, is what got me thinking
about this!)

A "high level" explanation of how this worked might help making more
realistic car assignments during an operating session.

Thanks!
Phil Buchwald


Schuyler Larrabee
 

-----Original Message-----
From: Tim O'Connor Re: Freight Tariffs


For example, a railroad from A-B might have
the best route, but any other competitor serving A and B also
could offer the same rate, even if that meant going A-C-D-B.
So routings were often seemingly bizarre, involving hundreds
of extra miles (if not thousands).
A good friend of mine was a salesman for the ERIE in, among other places,
Dallas, Texas. He was quite successful. One of his customers liked him, and
the service he got at the other end, so his shipments were routed from Texas to
Chicago, to suburban NYC in NJ, so as to "reward" the ERIE with a substantial
portion of the road haul, which otherwise would only have been something like 20
miles if done on "logical" routings.

SGL


Randy Williamson <pennsy@...>
 

At 01:50 PM 1/22/2005, you wrote:
I think tariffs were based on commodity and weight per carload,
and of course, source and destination. Changing the rules to be
more flexible as cars got larger, and railroads wanted to offer
multi-car discounts, was the subject of the huge "Big John"
hopper case in the 1960's. Tariffs were published and anyone
could offer them. For example, a railroad from A-B might have
the best route, but any other competitor serving A and B also
could offer the same rate, even if that meant going A-C-D-B.
So routings were often seemingly bizarre, involving hundreds
of extra miles (if not thousands). The SP brought Oregon lumber
down through Texas and up via the Cotton Belt to St Louis, rather
than short-haul itself via Ogden and the UP. The all-SP route
was hundreds of miles further, but UP could offer no advantage
on rates -- only service.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I have a AC&Y westbound routing guide from the 1960's. Most of the routes
shown include an interchange with the N&W at one end to an interchange with
the N&W at the other end. Can the savings be that large compared with the
switching charges at both ends?

Randy


ljack70117@...
 

On Saturday, January 22, 2005, at 05:39 PM, Randy Williamson wrote:
I have a AC&Y westbound routing guide from the 1960's. Most of the routes
shown include an interchange with the N&W at one end to an interchange with
the N&W at the other end. Can the savings be that large compared with the
switching charges at both ends?

Randy
I under stood the switching charge was paid by the road haul that handed the car to the switching road. When I was on the UPRR at Salina Ks we would haul wheat to Salina and interchange it to the MOP for a flour mill on the MOP in Salina. There was no Road haul for the MOP. They charged the UPRR for the switch.
Thank you
Larry Jackman
ljack70117@...
Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he will sit in a boat all day drinking beer.