How was the Duryea Underframes different. If one were to model a car with this frame what would be the major visual differences, Steve Fuchs

Ted Culotta <tculotta@...> wrote:
On Jan 26, 2005, at 5:42 PM, timgilbert17851 wrote:

--- In STMFC@..., Ted Culotta <tculotta@s...> wrote:
>

> It's a 1923 ARA design box car - there were 21 for the B&M and 4 for
> MTC. The doors (NOT reverse Creco - there is no such animal) are
> correct for an as built car, but by then, me thinks they all had
been
> fitted with Youngstown corrugated doors. Since they were also top
hung
> doors, the door tracks are incorrect. You can get the correcr parts
> from several sets of Grandt Line Camel wood doors. Oh, by the way,
> they had Duryea underframes. Here is what the model should look
like
> as built (see below). The big change for your era would be the
doors.
>
> http://www.steamfreightcars.com/calendar/2002/nap02/bm71968main.html
>

Ted,

What makes you think that all of B&M's 1923 Steel Design Boxcars had
Youngstown Doors when the photo of MTC #71999 with original "as built"
doors on page 27 of the NORTHERN NEW ENGLAND COLOR GUIDE was taken on
January 30, 1960?

Silly assumption. I did say I thought, not that they definitely had.

Regards,
Ted Culotta

Speedwitch Media
100 14th Avenue, San Mateo, CA 94402
info@...
www.speedwitch.com
(650) 787-1912



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On Jan 27, 2005, at 2:21 AM, Tim Gilbert wrote:

The #71000's, both single sheathed and steel came equipped with doors
which have been referred to as "Reversed Creco" doors, but, to avoid
sensitivity will be called herein as "as built" doors.

Tim:

I don't look at this as a sensitivity issue. It's just plain fact. I don't care if people say they look LIKE what a a reversed (note the 'd' at the end) Creco door would look like. However, Creco never came within a thousand miles of these doors so to call them reverse Creco is just plain erroneous. This is a situation where we can try to nip a misnomer while it is in its infancy, not trying to start correcting people when I am in my 70s. Let's use the term that the ARA/AAR used to refer to proprietary builder's hardware, fixtures and components which was "Carbuilders' " That works for me.

Regards,
Ted Culotta

Speedwitch Media
100 14th Avenue, San Mateo, CA 94402
info@...
www.speedwitch.com
(650) 787-1912

Tim Gilbert writes:

What makes you think that all of B&M's 1923 Steel Design Boxcars had
Youngstown Doors when the photo of MTC #71999 with original "as built"
doors on page 27 of the NORTHERN NEW ENGLAND COLOR GUIDE was taken on
January 30, 1960?

and Ted Culotta responds:

Silly assumption. I did say I thought, not that they definitely had.

Richard Hendrickson adds:

Not so silly, Ted. There is photographic evidence that at least one of the
cars got corrugated doors as early as the mid-'40s and that some (most?)
had the doors replaced by the early 1950s. The rarity here is the car that
lasted later than that with its original doors.

Richard,

Have you seen photographs of any B&M or MTC cars having Youngstown doors which were in the B&M #71954-71974 or MTC #71996-71999 series? The photograph of #70992 (ex-#71973) which you sent me a few years ago was shot after May 1956 when the car was sold, renumbered and leased back from the Hyman Michaels Co.

The #71000's, both single sheathed and steel came equipped with doors which have been referred to as "Reversed Creco" doors, but, to avoid sensitivity will be called herein as "as built" doors. Besides the the thousand cars in the #71000-71999 series, there were another 1,000 cars of the 1923 ARA Design, all single sheathed, in the #72000-72999 series which came equipped with Youngstown doors when built in 1930. Is some of your photographic evidence of Youngstown doors from photos of the #72000-72999 series?

The B&M started to replace the "as built" doors on its full #71000-71999 series (975 of the cars were single sheathed with a Howe truss while the other 25 with numbers listed above were steel sheathed) with Youngstown doors after WW II. Not all the surviving #71000 series cars shopped to retrofit AB brake systems or repainted with BM marks and Minuteman heralds had their doors replaced. I have no way to estimate what the percentage of #71000's were which had their "as built" doors replaced with Youngstowns since I have photographs of some #71000's with Minuteman heralds having "as built" doors and some having Youngstown doors.

In 1955-56, 511 of the 975 single-sheathed cars and twelve of the steel sheathed cars within the #71000 series were sold & leased , leased back and renumbered randomly into the #69700-70999 series - the other 795 cars renumbered were from the #72000-72999 series which had been built in 1930 with Youngstown doors. It is my feeling that whatever cars in the #71000 series which still had their "as built" doors just prior to the 1955-56 sale/leaseback had their doors replaced with Youngstowns as a condition of their sale. I have never seen a photograph of any car in the #69700-70999 series with doors other than Youngstowns.

Tim Gilbert

Tim Gilbert writes:

What makes you think that all of B&M's 1923 Steel Design Boxcars had
Youngstown Doors when the photo of MTC #71999 with original "as built"
doors on page 27 of the NORTHERN NEW ENGLAND COLOR GUIDE was taken on
January 30, 1960?

and Ted Culotta responds:

Silly assumption. I did say I thought, not that they definitely had.

Not so silly, Ted. There is photographic evidence that at least one of the
cars got corrugated doors as early as the mid-'40s and that some (most?)
had the doors replaced by the early 1950s. The rarity here is the car that
lasted later than that with its original doors.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520

Yeah, we'll read it soon:

"Remember the dashes in Pennsy car classes"

Running for shelter!

SGL

On Jan 26, 2005, at 5:42 PM, timgilbert17851 wrote:

--- In STMFC@..., Ted Culotta <tculotta@s...> wrote:
>

> It's a 1923 ARA design box car - there were 21 for the B&M and 4 for
> MTC.  The doors (NOT reverse Creco - there is no such animal) are
> correct for an as built car, but by then, me thinks they all had
been
> fitted with Youngstown corrugated doors.  Since they were also top
hung
> doors, the door tracks are incorrect.  You can get the correcr parts
> from several sets of Grandt Line Camel wood doors.  Oh, by the way,
> they had Duryea underframes.  Here is what the model should look
like
> as built (see below).  The big change for your era would be the
doors.
>
> http://www.steamfreightcars.com/calendar/2002/nap02/bm71968main.html
>

Ted,

What makes you think that all of B&M's 1923 Steel Design Boxcars had
Youngstown Doors when the photo of MTC #71999 with original "as built"
doors on page 27 of the NORTHERN NEW ENGLAND COLOR GUIDE was taken on
January 30, 1960? 

Silly assumption. I did say I thought, not that they definitely had.

Regards,
Ted Culotta

Speedwitch Media
100 14th Avenue, San Mateo, CA 94402
info@...
www.speedwitch.com
(650) 787-1912

--- In STMFC@..., Ted Culotta <tculotta@s...> wrote:

It's a 1923 ARA design box car - there were 21 for the B&M and 4 for
MTC. The doors (NOT reverse Creco - there is no such animal) are
correct for an as built car, but by then, me thinks they all had been
fitted with Youngstown corrugated doors. Since they were also top hung
doors, the door tracks are incorrect. You can get the correcr parts
from several sets of Grandt Line Camel wood doors. Oh, by the way,
they had Duryea underframes. Here is what the model should look like
as built (see below). The big change for your era would be the doors.

http://www.steamfreightcars.com/calendar/2002/nap02/bm71968main.html

Ted,

What makes you think that all of B&M's 1923 Steel Design Boxcars had
Youngstown Doors when the photo of MTC #71999 with original "as built"
doors on page 27 of the NORTHERN NEW ENGLAND COLOR GUIDE was taken on
January 30, 1960?

Tim Gilbert

On Jan 26, 2005, at 4:07 PM, Ted Culotta wrote:

http://www.steamfreightcars.com/calendar/2002/nap02/bm71968main.html

By the way, the model pictured in this link fell from a height of almost seven feet to a hardwood floor... and like a cat, landed on its trucks, causing only a bent axle on one of the wheelsets! I had also forgotten that there is a better photo of it here:

http://www.steamfreightcars.com/modeling/models/culotta/bm71968main.html

Regards,
Ted Culotta

Speedwitch Media
100 14th Avenue, San Mateo, CA 94402
info@...
www.speedwitch.com
(650) 787-1912

On Jan 25, 2005, at 3:48 PM, Tom Lawler wrote:

In Feb 05 RMC, page 25 is a Bethleham Car Works ad with a pic of a B&M
MTC
X-29 box car.  From the pic it apprears to be a decent looking car.

My 1953 ORER info matches this car for the most part.  It seems the
EW and
EH numbers on the car do not match the ORER but maybe I can live with
that.
Other than that, any comments from the B&M fans on what they think of
this
car would be appreciated (such as paint scheme, doors, roof, etc).

Tom:

It's a 1923 ARA design box car - there were 21 for the B&M and 4 for
MTC. The doors (NOT reverse Creco - there is no such animal) are
correct for an as built car, but by then, me thinks they all had been
fitted with Youngstown corrugated doors. Since they were also top hung
doors, the door tracks are incorrect. You can get the correcr parts
from several sets of Grandt Line Camel wood doors. Oh, by the way,
they had Duryea underframes. Here is what the model should look like
as built (see below). The big change for your era would be the doors.

http://www.steamfreightcars.com/calendar/2002/nap02/bm71968main.html

regards,
Ted Culotta

Speedwitch Media
100 14th Avenue, San Mateo, CA 94402
info@...
www.speedwitch.com
(650) 787-1912

Oh gee, here we go again...
Scott Pitzer
=======

In Feb 05 RMC, page 25 is a Bethleham Car Works ad with a pic of a B&M MTC
X-29 box car. From the pic it apprears to be a decent looking car.

My 1953 ORER info matches this car for the most part. It seems the EW and
EH numbers on the car do not match the ORER but maybe I can live with that.
Other than that, any comments from the B&M fans on what they think of this
car would be appreciated (such as paint scheme, doors, roof, etc).




Regards,

Tom Lawler