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Ordnance Works and Freight Cars
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Shawn Beckert
List,
What kind of materials would have been delivered via freight car to an ordnance factory in the 1950's? Tank cars loaded with Toluene would be one item, boxcars loaded with empty shell casings might be another. I'd guess that you'd see tank cars from Hercules Powder and related companies there as well. Would anything else besides boxcars and tank cars have shown up at an ordnance factory in those days? Thanks, Shawn Beckert
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Garth Groff <ggg9y@...>
Shawn,
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Boxcars, probably lots of boxcars. I wonder if a civilian-operated ordinance plant would have shipped their . . . uh . . . wares in railroad-owned cars, or if they would have used military boxcars. DODX operated an interesting fleet of 50', 10' IH, door-and-a-half PS-1 boxcars. AFAIK, these were the only 50' PS-1s built at the reduced height, and certainly the only ones with that door configuration. Given that these cars were built around 1950s or so (check Ed Hawkins' lists in RMJ), they would certainly fit the tail end of our era. Whether they would have ever been loaded at non-military bases is debatable, but they certainly showed up in through trains. I used to see these cars rolling through California on the SP when I was young, and they were quite noticeable thanks to their silver paint. During Vietnam they moved a lot of munitions from Hawthorn, Nevada, to various military terminals in California, especially the Naval Weapons Station at Concord. It was a train of such cars that blew up at Roseville around 1972, and the UP was still finding unexploded 500 pound bombs there when they rebuilt the yard in the 1990s. One of these cars is preserved at the Western Railway Museum (along with some older wooden cars used by the Navy for in-plant service at Concord; we've discussed the M&STL car preserved there), and I think there is also one on the Sierra at Jamestown. The CSRM has an ex-Air Force 40' PS-1 in their collection. I don't remember seeing these in any of Ed's lists. Kind regards, Garth G. Groff Beckert, Shawn wrote:
List,
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Andy Carlson
--- Garth Groff <ggg9y@...> wrote:
One of these cars is preserved at the WesternThe Orange Empire Museum at Perris, CA has quite a few Navy 10'0" single door 40' cars in their collection. Also, a truck equipment firm near Ridgecrest in the Mojave has about 4 or 5 Seal Beach 40' cars which look like a hybrid of 37 AAR and X29 designs. -Andy Carlson Ojai CA
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Richard Hendrickson
Gart Groff writes:
DODX operated an interesting fleet of 50', 10' IH, door-and-a-halfThe 50' PS-1s weren't the first such cars. The U. S. Navy got 1140 50' steel sheathed box cars for munitions service in 1945 which were also 10'0" IH cars with 1-1/2 Superior 7-panel doors, Pennsy style riveted inside-carline roofs with shallow depressions for the lateral running boards, 4-5 rectangular rib ends like those used on some sub-classes of B&O M-55 box cars, Duryea Cushion underframes, and AAR self-aligning spring-plankless trucks. They may have been painted aluminum later, after the navy's freight cars were combined with those of the army quartermaster corps under DODX reporting marks, but in the '40s and early '50s they were mineral red with white lettering that identified them as the property of the navy's Bureau of Ordnance. They were numbered USNX 4000-5139. I have several photos of these cars, including one I took myself at Oceanside, CA in 1946 when it was on its way up the Santa Fe's Fallbrook branch with ordnance for the Marine Corps at Camp Pendleton. As early as 1943 the navy also rostered 170 50' cars numbered USNX 3000-3169 with similar dimensions, but they are not identified in the ORERs as steel sheathed and may have been acquired second hand; I've never seen a photo of one. Richard H. Hendrickson Ashland, Oregon 97520
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Curt Fortenberry <arrphoto@...>
Alaska RR still operates some ex USN 6'/4' double door boxcars cars in
MOW service. Their list doesn't specify inside height. They have another series with a pair of 7 1/2' doors. ARR acquired them in 1980. Curt Fortenberry
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steamgene@...
Several years ago -- well, a decade ago -- I was at the Defense
General Supply Center in Richmond, Virginia and saw two U.S. Army cars down in the yard. The flat was a 40 foot flat with the brakewheel on a staff and the box was a 40 foot PS-1 with full ladders and roof walk. I took a couple of pictures until a security guy came along and told me to stop. IIRC, only my ID card kept the film from being confiscated. I didn't tell him that I thought he was trying to protect a couple of cars which were probably older than he was. Gene Moser From: "Curt Fortenberry" <arrphoto@...>cars in MOW service. Their list doesn't specify inside height. They have1980.
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Schuyler Larrabee
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-----Original Message----- the UP was still finding unexploded 500 pound bombs [in Roseville]Gee, were there any "incidents?" SGL
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steamgene@...
An unfuzed bomb that has not been dropped from a plane is not
very dangerous as long as you don't take a blowtorch to it. Gene Moser From: "Schuyler Larrabee" <schuyler.larrabee@...>Roseville] when they rebuilt the yard in the 1990s.Gee, were there any "incidents?"
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Garth Groff <ggg9y@...>
Schuyler,
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No, none went off. Once the contractors found the first bomb, they moved very carefully. The ordinance was defused by military experts and taken away. IIRC, they turned up about a dozen bombs. For all I know, there might still be some out there. This was a side issue to a steam-era posting, but is way beyond the scope of our group. If anyone wants to continue this sub-thread, let's do it by private e-mail to keep Mike from having a coronary. Kind regards, Garth G. Groff Schuyler Larrabee wrote:
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Westerfield <westerfield@...>
Thank you for the clarification of your order. We are a bit behind, so it may be a week or so before we can ship this.
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Patricia W.
----- Original Message -----
From: Garth Groff To: STMFC@... Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 6:15 AM Subject: Re: [STMFC] Ordnance Works and Freight Cars Schuyler, No, none went off. Once the contractors found the first bomb, they moved very carefully. The ordinance was defused by military experts and taken away. IIRC, they turned up about a dozen bombs. For all I know, there might still be some out there. This was a side issue to a steam-era posting, but is way beyond the scope of our group. If anyone wants to continue this sub-thread, let's do it by private e-mail to keep Mike from having a coronary. Kind regards, Garth G. Groff Schuyler Larrabee wrote: > > > > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Garth Groff >> >> > > > >>the UP was still finding unexploded 500 pound bombs [in Roseville] >>when they rebuilt the yard in the 1990s. >> >> > >Gee, were there any "incidents?" > >SGL > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/STMFC/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: STMFC-unsubscribe@... c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
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Westerfield <westerfield@...>
Dear Stem fans,
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Sorry for the strange message. My finger slipped and the reply from another message went to you. Patricia Westerfield
----- Original Message -----
From: Westerfield To: STMFC@... Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 10:31 AM Subject: Re: [STMFC] Ordnance Works and Freight Cars Thank you for the clarification of your order. We are a bit behind, so it may be a week or so before we can ship this. Patricia W.
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Denny Anspach <danspach@...>
About ten years ago, about fifteen of us took our track motorcars and were treated to a comprehensive Sunday tour of all of the trackage in then very active Concord Naval Weapons Station on the north side of Concord, California. A short rail line connected with the adjacent Port Chicago Naval Depot on SF Bay, where the ammunition ships were loaded (and where the notorious WWII incident of the black stevedores loading the ammunition ships took place).
It was a fascinating experience, hampered only by an absolute prohibition on photography (very frustrating for a Sacramento Bee newspaper reporter and photographer with me trying to write a feature story!). Virtually every single bit of internal and external transport or movement of bombs and other ordnance was undertaken *only by rail*, and this only in a vast fleet of meticulously-maintained solid-bearinged silver boxcars that still had running boards, and (by memory only) seemed to be similar to, if not PS-1s (perhaps someone will know more in this regard). These boxcars were also principally used as mobile storage, and the track layout was so designed. There was track everywhere (101 miles of it in about 5000 acres). I have never seen so many turnouts, diamonds (straight and curved), or spurs anywhere. It was a boy's fantastic dream layout, given an infinite number of tinplate turnouts, crossings, and track. A given line would go along a corridor, and every so many hundred feet, spurs would peel off right and left into street-railway type curves, each spur ending in a thick concrete revetment surrounded on two or three sides by very high berms. Along the hillsides, the revetments would be cave-like. There seemed to be thousands of these, each sized to hold one 40' boxcar. This is how the ordnance was stored, ready to move! The lines climbed up the sides of hills. They interconnected everywhere. The maintenance of the track and roadbed was *perfect*. Perfect clean ballast shaped into a sharp prism. Ties perfect. Not a weed or blade of grass to be seen. All rail also "perfect" with no low joints, or visible or palpable wear. The railroad's GM (a former ATSF person) reminded us of the Zero Defect policy when one is moving explosive devices, and even a simple bump, much less a minor derailment was cause for the most intensive serious investigation, if not discipline. 15 mph was the drop-dead speed limit (as it was for us as well. Fouled spark plugs plagued us the whole day in this regard!). We were unable to take the line out onto the wharves (big disappointment), the reason for which I never understood. Currently, as I understand it, the Station is largely moth-balled, and the port Depot is now an Army facility. I presume that the hundreds of time-warp boxcars are probably still there, although I do not know for certain. Denny -- Denny S. Anspach, MD Sacramento
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Michael Aufderheide
Denny,
Thank you for the fascinating account. I've found the aerial of the place from 1993. See: http://terraserver.homeadvisor.msn.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=10&X=1463&Y=10530&W=3&qs=%7cconcord%7cca%7c Make sure you get the whole URL. Regards, Mike Aufderheide Chicago __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
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Roger Hinman <rhinman@...>
I was stationed on an ammo ship out of Concord in the mid seventies and
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seem to remember six wheel Alco? switchers making all the moves to the pier. I routinely saw all the pier trackage but never saw the other end Roger H.
On Feb 8, 2005, at 3:56 PM, Denny Anspach wrote:
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Schuyler Larrabee
Patricia, I think there might have been a mis-click here . . .I have no order
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outstanding with you. Just want to help you out. I can see this might lead to your questioning you own sanity, if it got to be an issue ("I was SURE I sent out . . .") SGL
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Jim Gillmore <TwoRail@...>
--- In STMFC@..., Denny Anspach <danspach@m...> wrote:
do not know for certain. Most of the boxcars are stored in good condition adjacent to Willow Pass Road in Concord and visible from the road. Take the Concord Exit from Highway 4. HOWEVER, it is a busy two lane road and the Highway Patrol and the Concord Police take a dim view of anyone stopping to take photos -- highway safety and military security are both issues that they get concerned about. The box cars are weathered all silver with DOD reporting marks, and appear to be "standard" 1937 era box cars with no special equipment. The station was built in 1942 and the rail equipment probably originated at that time. Most cars now have their doors open. For awhile after the station was mothballed, the cars were stored with the doors closed, but about 2 years ago, they were all opend up. I suppose this is for better security - someone can't camp inside without being seen. Or perhaps it is for better air circulation to prevent moisture from being trapped inside and causing mildew (it's a moist, foggy area). I believe there were 8 or 9 locomotives on the station just before it closed. The ones that I have seen were Baldwins, painted yellow, some re-engined with EMD prime movers. Jim Gillmore, Concord CA
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Richard Hendrickson
Denny, Mike AufderheideMike, that sure looks familiar. I often fly from the north into the Concord airport, which is just west of the ammo depot, and on right downwind for runway 32 right the entire ammo depot is clearly visible out the left side window. In fact, the instrument approach to runway 19 right goes right over the ammo depot, though that's not an approach I often use since my Citabria is strictly a VFR airplane. Richard H. Hendrickson Ashland, Oregon 97520
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Garth Groff <ggg9y@...>
Denny,
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Very interesting account. You used to be able to see some of this installation from the highway, but there was no way to stop and take photos. I drove past about three years ago, and saw a lot of interesting equipment from a distance. The railroad was originally the Bay Point & Clayton Railroad, a shortline built to serve a large cement plant owned by the Henry Cowell interests at Cowell (the smokestack is all that remains, now surrounded by a small park and acres of suburban houses). The line never reached Clayton. The BP&C connected with the SP and ATSF at Bay Point; and with the Oakland, Antioch & Eastern (later the Sacramento Northern) at Clyde. It used two off-the-shelf Baldwin 0-6-0s, one lettered for the railroad and the other for the cement company (about 1939 they swapped assignments). A short 42" narrow gauge line reached the quarries on Lime Ridge. In 1945 or so the line was sold to the Navy and grew into the operation you saw. The final two miles beyond the base were operated a few months by the Navy as the cement plant wound down, then removed around 1947. Also of interest was an extension from Bay Point out to a large shipyard during WWI. This line involved a high-level crossing of the ATSF and SP mainlines. The war ended before this line went into full operation. The track was pulled up before the BP&C became military property, but piers to the fly-over are still there. Kind regards, Garth G. Groff Denny Anspach wrote:
About ten years ago, about fifteen of us took our track motorcars and were treated to a comprehensive Sunday tour of all of the trackage in then very active Concord Naval Weapons Station on the north side of Concord, California. A short rail line connected with the adjacent Port Chicago Naval Depot on SF Bay, where the ammunition ships were loaded (and where the notorious WWII incident of the black stevedores loading the ammunition ships took place).
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Denny Anspach <danspach@...>
My understanding of the first ammunition box cars at Concord were second hand single sheath cars, some of which went on to a third life restored to their original liveries at the Western Railroad Museum in nearby Rio Vista Jct. Just when the current crop of DOD steel cars were then built would seem to probably be after the war, or perhaps during the Korean conflict.
Denny -- Denny S. Anspach, MD Sacramento
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railsnw1 <railsnw@...>
Years ago when I was on the Bangor Submarine Base in Washington they
had quite a few of the 50' aluminum painted steel boxcars. A number of these besides having side doors also had rollup end doors. Didn't check that closely to see if they were added later. Richard --- In STMFC@..., Denny Anspach <danspach@m...> wrote: My understanding of the first ammunition box cars at Concord werelife restored to their original liveries at the Western Railroad Museumin nearby Rio Vista Jct. Just when the current crop of DOD steel cars
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