Coalburning locos were covered with coal soot which tended to make them
look brownish.

eric

Ed Hawkins writes in part...

"This effort led to Kadee receiving a Boles color drift card of "PRR Alkali
Resisting Gray" (dated 9/53), which would be applicable for use on PRR covered
hopper cars. As far as I know, this is the only paint sample that could be
found during their production planning and this was considered to be a far
better color standard than any color photograph, which may or may not represent
the true color of the actual cars when built in the mid-1950s."

About a year ago Al Buchan ask the members of the BOD to stop supplying
drift card sample as many have been determined to incorrect. We then formed a
Paint Color Committee to address the issue. Perhaps that explains the KADEE
color issue.

"The issues about color rendition in printed medium have been discussed many
times in the past on the STMFC and I see no need to rehash it."

As have the drift cars and their relevancy to scale modeling vs painting a
prototype car and then of course the correctness and all the storage issue. I
think Mike Brock sums it up very nicely... comparison is a very good method of
verification.

" There may be a few compromises made, as there almost always are, but in my
opinion this is a far better model of a PRR PS-2 than anything Atlas or any
other model railroad company has ever offered."

Thank you, yes there were compromises made... Again the modelers were not
made aware of them and again I wonder if KADEE knew of them.

"If the painted, lettered, and assembled PRR PS-2 model isn't considered
accurate for one's standards,"

It is incorrect for the PRR that's a given.

"Kadee also offers undecorated models that can be used for making
appropriate modifications, including painting the model the "correct shade of gray" and
applying a correct set of decals.

Far more expensive of a car as well... Worth the price? Well in the
correct paint perhaps, as it NO. Again if anyone feels so strongly that the car is
correct I will gladly sell mine and continue to re-work the Atlas. The
undecorated option would again be nice if we could only find Hobby Shops that 1)
kept and accurate inventory of what they sold, 2) and re-ordered based on
their sales, 3) carried undecorated kits... These shops are few and far
between.

Greg Martin

On Sunday, February 13, 2005, at 09:28 AM, tgregmrtn@... wrote (in
response to Todd Horton's question):

Mistakes like the incorrect color of the PS-2 PRR class H-34A Covered
hopper
have no logical excuse . They used  the builders photo, it came right
out of
Wayner's book, and they still  got it wrong. Their research is not
full proof
and I wouldn't recommend anyone  buy them they are that bad... Oh
that's right
these are for the collectors  not the serious modeler or they would
have done
the proper research... Buyer  beware...

Greg,
Per STMFC list requirements, all opinions made are entitled by those
who make them and I respect the right to your opinions and comments.
However, I want to go on record that Kadee actually went to a lot of
trouble to locate color photos and a prototype paint sample to use for
matching color for their PRR PS-2 model. This effort led to Kadee
receiving a Boles color drift card of "PRR Alkali Resisting Gray"
(dated 9/53), which would be applicable for use on PRR covered hopper
cars. As far as I know, this is the only paint sample that could be
found during their production planning and this was considered to be a
far better color standard than any color photograph, which may or may
not represent the true color of the actual cars when built in the
mid-1950s. The issues about color rendition in printed medium have been
discussed many times in the past on the STMFC and I see no need to
rehash it.

If you have a prototype paint sample from the H34A series of cars, then
may I suggest that you provide it to Kadee. I'm quite sure they welcome
the chance to see it and would likely use it on a future PRR PS-2
release. If you do not have a prototype paint sample, then on what
basis are you using to make these strong statements?

Regarding other issues about the physical features of the model vs. the
prototype PRR PS-2s, Kadee had but one viable choice (the H34A class)
unless they spent a lot of money on new tooling. Three orders of PRR's
PS-2s built by Pullman-Standard had a deviation with regard to the
ladder arrangement along the left part of the side (full ladder up the
left side). The earliest PRR PS-2s had the narrow hatch spacing. In
either case, the H34, H34B, and H34C classes were considered an
unacceptable match for the Kadee model, which is offered with several
variations of the most common PS-2 design having the wide hatch spacing
and pair of horizontal rods used along the left side of the car. Thus,
Kadee chose to make their PRR model based on the class H34A built by
the railroad as this prototype car was considered the closest match.
There may be a few compromises made, as there almost always are, but in
my opinion this is a far better model of a PRR PS-2 than anything Atlas
or any other model railroad company has ever offered. The "buyer
beware" tag can be put on anything and I don't believe that Kadee
markets or targets their PS-1 and PS-2 models strictly for collectors.
I consider myself a "serious modeler" and consequently support and
appreciate Kadee's level of attention to detail.

If the painted, lettered, and assembled PRR PS-2 model isn't considered
accurate for one's standards, Kadee also offers undecorated models that
can be used for making appropriate modifications, including painting
the model the "correct shade of gray" and applying a correct set of
decals.

BTW, hyphens in the PRR class numbers risk Ben Hom's ire as PRR didn't
use hyphens in their class numbers.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ed Hawkins notes about the Pennsy H34A...whatever that is <g>:

"As far as I know, this is the only paint sample that could be
found during their production planning and this was considered to be a
far better color standard than any color photograph, which may or may
not represent the true color of the actual cars when built in the
mid-1950s."


Hmmmm. I hate to stand up when bullets are flying...particularly about something as obscure yet profound as color. Nevertheless, being fully aware that..."fools walk in...", I would offer a SLIGHTLY different view about color photos. If we're talking about a photo of a single subject, I agree that we don't know what effects different processes may have occurred that may have altered the appearance. However, if other colors...perhaps even other cars...that we KNOW the color of DO appear in the photo, then the information is much more useful. For example, as I have said before, one of my favorite photos is on the cover of the book USRA 2-8-8-2 Series Classic Power 3A by NJ International. This color photo shows two N&W Y class locomotives passing through Roanoke. The engines appear very brownish black...more brown than black, in fact. They are, indeed, dirty from the appearance of the lettering. Now, one might speculate that the photo offers little help in determining their actual color except for one...actually two...things. Standing to the right of the locomotives is a signal with its back to the camera. On the other side and behind the two locomotives is the rear end of a...I think..tender probably recently shopped. Both the signal and tender are very black appearing....no browns at all. From this, we know that the two engines are, indeed, brownish black...unless we believe that parts of the film or lens acted differently from others. The locomotives were, I'm certain, painted black and a paint chip would surely show that. Nature etc. has altered their original appearance and, yes, we're all aware of that. This example has nothing whatever to do with the argument about the as built paint on the Pennsy hopper [ I have not seen the photo ] and I offer it only to suggest that color photos DO have their uses. I find this concept very useful in dispelling beliefs in the consistency of painting operations [ a subject currently under discussion on the Passenger Car Group ]. There are other examples that I could name of clean looking Swift cars with very different appearing shades of red, two distinctly different colors of red on NP box cars and even a horribly pinkish red on a Santa Fe box car coupled to another that appears just fine...neither very weathered.

OK...back to shooting. Don't forget to duck, though, and...oh yes...no real bullets please.

Mike Brock...Hmmm. Wonder if there's one of those hoppers in the William Price WM book? Now...there's some beautiful photos.