Group, In doing a little inventory control I discovered two factory "as
built" painted, fully built kits, tricked out with wire grabs, rodding and piping,
of Intermountain NP reefers #91160 and #91186. These kits are clones to the
PFE R-40-23 cars and were manufactured by IM probably ten years ago. Anyway, I
was a happy camper until I pulled out my prototype research material to check
them for accuracy by today standards. Wrong brake wheel and roofwalk, no big
deal until I read Ed Hawkins' RJ article of September 2000. The factory
decorated cars have black ends and roofs. Ed's article says the ends should be
freight car red, and the roof aluminum color, with maybe car cement on the seam
caps. Ed, you state that this was your best effort research, so can anyone else
support the red and aluminum colors----OR disagree before two really nice
models head for eBay.
Paul Lyons
Laguna Niguel, CA

Group, In doing a little inventory control I discovered two factory "as
built" painted, fully built kits, tricked out with wire grabs, rodding and
piping,
of Intermountain NP reefers #91160 and #91186. These kits are clones to the
PFE R-40-23 cars and were manufactured by IM probably ten years ago.
Anyway, I
was a happy camper until I pulled out my prototype research material to check
them for accuracy by today standards. Wrong brake wheel and roofwalk, no big
deal until I read Ed Hawkins' RJ article of September 2000. The factory
decorated cars have black ends and roofs. Ed's article says the ends
should be
freight car red, and the roof aluminum color, with maybe car cement on the
seam
caps. Ed, you state that this was your best effort research, so can anyone
else
support the red and aluminum colors----OR disagree before two really nice
models head for eBay.
Paul Lyons
Laguna Niguel, CA

Paul, I have both builders and in-service photos of these cars. There has
always been some confusion about them because there were two series,
91000-91249 built in late 1947 and 91250-91499 built in mid-1949. Both
were built directly off the PFE drawings by Pacific Car & Foundry 9with
PFE's permission), but the second series were clones of the PFE R-40-25
class and had diagonal-panel roofs.
The information I have, from NP sources I trust, is that the 9100-91249
series cars were delivered with black roof and ends; the roofs were
aluminum only on the later 91250-91499 series cars. And though the photos I
have are B/W, they rather strongly confirm this. Both series were later
repainted with mineral red roofs and ends. When the earliest cars in the
91000-91249 series were delivered, they were not stenciled with "Main
Street of the Northwest" slogans under the heralds. I'm not sure when the
slogans started to be added, but I have a photo of NP 91000, the class car,
without the slogans and of NP 91072 with them, so they must have been
applied fairly early in the production run and certainly would have been on
the cars your models are numbered for.

The photos I have show three different cars with widely separated numbers
in the 91000-91249 series and all have Ajax hand brakes and Morton running
boards, so I think it can be inferred that all cars in the series had the
same equipment (which is what's on my IM model of NP 91123). If I were
you, I wouldn't part with those models.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520

On Friday, February 18, 2005, at 06:02 PM, cobrapsl@... wrote:

Group, In doing a little inventory control I discovered  two factory
"as
built" painted, fully built kits, tricked out with wire grabs, rodding
and piping,
of Intermountain NP reefers #91160 and #91186. These kits are clones
to the
PFE R-40-23 cars and were manufactured by IM probably ten years ago.
Anyway, I
was a happy camper until I pulled out my prototype research material
to check
them for accuracy by today standards. Wrong brake wheel and roofwalk, 
no big
deal until I read Ed Hawkins' RJ article of September 2000. The factory
decorated cars have black ends and roofs. Ed's article says the ends
should be
freight car red, and the roof aluminum color, with maybe car cement on
the seam
caps. Ed, you state that this was your best effort research, so can
anyone else
support the red and aluminum colors----OR disagree before two really
nice
models head for eBay.
Paul Lyons

Paul,
The models you refer to are NP's copies of PFE R-40-23s, representing
prototype cars built in 1947. The article I wrote in the Sept. 2000 RMJ
was about PFE's R-40-25 and NP's copies (series 91250-91499), both
groups of which were built two years later. The 1947-built NP cars
(91000-91249) cars had black roofs and ends and these are represented
by the car numbers you have. Thus, the models are good with regard to
the painting.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The Amarillo Railroad Museum offered kits and built up versions of
the NP R40-25 clones by Intermountain and may be doing a re-run.
They have a web page.

On the subject of NP reefers, Is there a good source for prototype
info on the NP fleet?

Bill McCoy
Jax.

---- In STMFC@..., Ed Hawkins <hawk0621@s...> wrote:

On Friday, February 18, 2005, at 06:02 PM, cobrapsl@a... wrote:

Group, In doing a little inventory control I discovered  two

factory

"as
built" painted, fully built kits, tricked out with wire grabs,

rodding

and piping,
of Intermountain NP reefers #91160 and #91186. These kits are

clones

to the
PFE R-40-23 cars and were manufactured by IM probably ten years

ago.

Anyway, I
was a happy camper until I pulled out my prototype research

material

to check
them for accuracy by today standards. Wrong brake wheel and

roofwalk, 

no big
deal until I read Ed Hawkins' RJ article of September 2000. The

factory

decorated cars have black ends and roofs. Ed's article says the

ends

should be
freight car red, and the roof aluminum color, with maybe car

cement on

the seam
caps. Ed, you state that this was your best effort research, so

can

anyone else
support the red and aluminum colors----OR disagree before two

really

nice
models head for eBay.
Paul Lyons

Paul,
The models you refer to are NP's copies of PFE R-40-23s,

representing

prototype cars built in 1947. The article I wrote in the Sept.

2000 RMJ

was about PFE's R-40-25 and NP's copies (series 91250-91499), both
groups of which were built two years later. The 1947-built NP cars
(91000-91249) cars had black roofs and ends and these are

represented

by the car numbers you have. Thus, the models are good with regard

to

the painting.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 2/23/2005 6:51:20 A.M. Central Standard Time,
bugsy451@... writes:

The Amarillo Railroad Museum offered kits and built up versions of
the NP R40-25 clones by Intermountain and may be doing a re-run.
They have a web page.

On the subject of NP reefers, Is there a good source for prototype
info on the NP fleet?

Bill McCoy
Jax.



Hello all,
We received most of our prototype information from Bill McKown of W &R
Enterprises. He was most helpful in giving information on painting and lettering
Virgil Young
Member, Amarillo Railroad Museum
Amarillo, TX
vyoung5622@...


Virgil Young
Amarillo, TX
vyoung5622@...

In a message dated 3/11/2005 8:12:41 A.M. Central Standard Time,
bugsy451@... writes:

MY IM R40-23 NP reefers (NP 91123 and 91147)both have small
heralds , black roofs and ends and "Mainstreet of the Northwest".
weigh Dates are R.N. 9-47. Could either of these cars have had the
red ends and silver roof or the red roof and ends with this
lettering? neither car has been built so repainting would be easy.


This is the earlier scheme before the adoption of the red ends and aluminum
roof. It is likely that they would have been repainted into the later scheme
sometime after the larger herald and "Route of the Vista Dome North Coast
Limited" was adopted. I have one of the earlier paint scheme R-40-23s which I
plan to weather heavily and mix in with the later versions when a member of
the Prototype Police is not around.

Information on the paint schemes used on the NP R-40-23 and the NP R-40-25
reefers is confusing as to the shades of paint used and the dates the various
logos appeared. I can't lay my hands on the correspondence we had with a
noted NP Guru before we ran the R-40-25 version, but we shared it with Ed
Hawkins, who wrote the excellent article HO Scale PFE R-40-25 and NP 40-Foot
Reefers which appeared in the September, 2000 issue of Railmodel Journal

Virgil Young
Amarillo, TX
vyoung5622@...

Question for Richard et.al.

MY IM R40-23 NP reefers (NP 91123 and 91147)both have small
heralds , black roofs and ends and "Mainstreet of the Northwest".
weigh Dates are R.N. 9-47. Could either of these cars have had the
red ends and silver roof or the red roof and ends with this
lettering? neither car has been built so repainting would be easy.

My Amarillo/IM R40-25 NP reefers are as follows: NP 91329 has the
large herald, red ends and roof, "Route of the North Coast Limited",
and weigh dates P.A. 8-53.

NP 91460 has the small herald and "Main Street of the Northwest",
silver roof and red ends and weigh date R.N. 6-49). Both have push
pole pockets to add on.

Are these correct?

It looks like the Morton roofwalks and Ajax brakes are ok.

Thanks,

Bill McCoy
Jax

4023>--- In STMFC@..., Richard Hendrickson
<rhendrickson@o...> wrote:

Group, In doing a little inventory control I discovered two

factory "as

built" painted, fully built kits, tricked out with wire grabs,

rodding and

piping,
of Intermountain NP reefers #91160 and #91186. These kits are

clones to the

PFE R-40-23 cars and were manufactured by IM probably ten years

ago.

Anyway, I
was a happy camper until I pulled out my prototype research

material to check

them for accuracy by today standards. Wrong brake wheel and

roofwalk, no big

deal until I read Ed Hawkins' RJ article of September 2000. The

factory

decorated cars have black ends and roofs. Ed's article says the

ends

should be
freight car red, and the roof aluminum color, with maybe car

cement on the

seam
caps. Ed, you state that this was your best effort research, so

can anyone

else
support the red and aluminum colors----OR disagree before two

really nice

models head for eBay.
Paul Lyons
Laguna Niguel, CA

Paul, I have both builders and in-service photos of these cars.

There has

always been some confusion about them because there were two

series,

91000-91249 built in late 1947 and 91250-91499 built in mid-1949.

Both

were built directly off the PFE drawings by Pacific Car & Foundry

9with

PFE's permission), but the second series were clones of the PFE R-

40-25

class and had diagonal-panel roofs.
The information I have, from NP sources I trust, is that the 9100-

91249

series cars were delivered with black roof and ends; the roofs were
aluminum only on the later 91250-91499 series cars. And though the

photos I

have are B/W, they rather strongly confirm this. Both series

were later

repainted with mineral red roofs and ends. When the earliest cars

in the

91000-91249 series were delivered, they were not stenciled

with "Main

Street of the Northwest" slogans under the heralds. I'm not sure

when the

slogans started to be added, but I have a photo of NP 91000, the

class car,

without the slogans and of NP 91072 with them, so they must have

been

applied fairly early in the production run and certainly would

have been on

the cars your models are numbered for.

The photos I have show three different cars with widely separated

numbers

in the 91000-91249 series and all have Ajax hand brakes and Morton

running

boards, so I think it can be inferred that all cars in the series

had the

same equipment (which is what's on my IM model of NP 91123). If I

were

you, I wouldn't part with those models.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520

Bill McCoy writes:

MY IM R40-23 NP reefers (NP 91123 and 91147)both have small
heralds , black roofs and ends and "Mainstreet of the Northwest".
weigh Dates are R.N. 9-47. Could either of these cars have had the
red ends and silver roof or the red roof and ends with this
lettering? neither car has been built so repainting would be easy.

Vol 4 No. 2 issue of The Mainstreeter has a small amountb of information regarding NP reefers. Included are black and white photos of 91000 with no slogan and 91497 with a "Main Street of the Northwest" slogan. Both have the smaller herald. Reweigh date is RN 7-49. One view includes a photo from the top. There is no doubt that the roof...including the brakewheel platform...is a light color. The brakewheel platform clearly stands out against the color of the end. The running board is also light colored. There is no information in the article about color and the photos that I mention appear newly painted. I have no idea if this paint scheme was experimental or common.

Mike Brock

My Amarillo/IM R40-25 NP reefers are as follows: NP 91329 has the
large herald, red ends and roof, "Route of the North Coast Limited",
and weigh dates P.A. 8-53.

NP 91460 has the small herald and "Main Street of the Northwest",
silver roof and red ends and weigh date R.N. 6-49). Both have push
pole pockets to add on.

Are these correct?

It looks like the Morton roofwalks and Ajax brakes are ok.

Thanks,

Bill McCoy
Jax

4023>--- In STMFC@..., Richard Hendrickson
<rhendrickson@o...> wrote:

Group, In doing a little inventory control I discovered two

factory "as

built" painted, fully built kits, tricked out with wire grabs,

rodding and

piping,
of Intermountain NP reefers #91160 and #91186. These kits are

clones to the

PFE R-40-23 cars and were manufactured by IM probably ten years

ago.

Anyway, I
was a happy camper until I pulled out my prototype research

material to check

them for accuracy by today standards. Wrong brake wheel and

roofwalk, no big

deal until I read Ed Hawkins' RJ article of September 2000. The

factory

decorated cars have black ends and roofs. Ed's article says the

ends

should be
freight car red, and the roof aluminum color, with maybe car

cement on the

seam
caps. Ed, you state that this was your best effort research, so

can anyone

else
support the red and aluminum colors----OR disagree before two

really nice

models head for eBay.
Paul Lyons
Laguna Niguel, CA

Paul, I have both builders and in-service photos of these cars.

There has

always been some confusion about them because there were two

series,

91000-91249 built in late 1947 and 91250-91499 built in mid-1949.

Both

were built directly off the PFE drawings by Pacific Car & Foundry

9with

PFE's permission), but the second series were clones of the PFE R-

40-25

class and had diagonal-panel roofs.
The information I have, from NP sources I trust, is that the 9100-

91249

series cars were delivered with black roof and ends; the roofs were
aluminum only on the later 91250-91499 series cars. And though the

photos I

have are B/W, they rather strongly confirm this. Both series

were later

repainted with mineral red roofs and ends. When the earliest cars

in the

91000-91249 series were delivered, they were not stenciled

with "Main

Street of the Northwest" slogans under the heralds. I'm not sure

when the

slogans started to be added, but I have a photo of NP 91000, the

class car,

without the slogans and of NP 91072 with them, so they must have

been

applied fairly early in the production run and certainly would

have been on

the cars your models are numbered for.

The photos I have show three different cars with widely separated

numbers

in the 91000-91249 series and all have Ajax hand brakes and Morton

running

boards, so I think it can be inferred that all cars in the series

had the

same equipment (which is what's on my IM model of NP 91123). If I

were

you, I wouldn't part with those models.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520

Yahoo! Groups Links

Bill, This tread got started with me getting the NP lot numbers mix up. Richard and Ed Hawkins quickly showed me the error of my ways(red-faced). Your IM NP reefers, as are mine, are correctly painted and lettered as they come from Intermountain. Sorry for the confusion.
Paul Lyons
Laguna Niguel

Thanks to Virgil and Mike for responding. I ordered Vol 4 #2 of "The
Mainstreeter" for the ice reefers and Vol 12 #2 for the mechanicals.
Since the small herald Amarillo R40-25 has the same side lettering
as the IM R40-23s I think I will repaint the ends red and roof
silver and change the reweigh date to 1949 on one of the cars. I'll
watch out for the prototype police.

Any idea when the new edition of the Dorin NP book is due out? I
also haven't looked at the Morming Sun NP color equipment book to
see what they have on these cars. Are these reefers covered there?

There is a great index of all of "The Mainstreeter" issues at
http://pw2.netcom.com/~whstlpnk/volumeindex.html

Bill McCoy
Jax




--- In STMFC@..., vyoung5622@a... wrote:

In a message dated 3/11/2005 8:12:41 A.M. Central Standard Time,
bugsy451@c... writes:

MY IM R40-23 NP reefers (NP 91123 and 91147)both have small
heralds , black roofs and ends and "Mainstreet of the Northwest".
weigh Dates are R.N. 9-47. Could either of these cars have had

the

red ends and silver roof or the red roof and ends with this
lettering? neither car has been built so repainting would be easy.


This is the earlier scheme before the adoption of the red ends and

aluminum

roof. It is likely that they would have been repainted into the

later scheme

sometime after the larger herald and "Route of the Vista Dome

North Coast

Limited" was adopted. I have one of the earlier paint scheme R-40-

23s which I

plan to weather heavily and mix in with the later versions when a

member of

the Prototype Police is not around.

Information on the paint schemes used on the NP R-40-23 and the NP

R-40-25

reefers is confusing as to the shades of paint used and the dates

the various

logos appeared. I can't lay my hands on the correspondence we

had with a

noted NP Guru before we ran the R-40-25 version, but we shared it

with Ed

Hawkins, who wrote the excellent article HO Scale PFE R-40-25 and

NP 40-Foot

Reefers which appeared in the September, 2000 issue of Railmodel

Journal

Virgil Young
Amarillo, TX
vyoung5622@a...

Regarding in service photos of NP reefers, the book Northern Pacific In Color by Doug Nighswonger...Morning Sun...includes a nice photo from above of an NP reefer. The shot was taken on May 28, 1953, and the reefer's roof is a shade of brownish red. The car has the small herald and lettering under it. However, the lettering...not distinguishable, is not long enough for "Mainstreet of the Northwest". In fact, the car has 8 panels to the right of the door...making it, apparently, a car in the 94000 series.

"Not so fast, my friend." Todd Sullivan says in his book NP Color Guide to frt and Passenger Cars that this series was built between '55 and '60. It is noteworthy that the car is performing fairly well two or more yrs prior to being built. Furthermore, for a car not built yet, it is surprisingly well weathered. To help date the photo, the car is directly behind NP Challenger 5132 at Garrison, MT, [ shot apparently by James Shuman ] and three photos of the train are included among many others shot, apparently, on the same day.

Cars of the series 94000 do not appear in the '53 ORER.

Mike Brock

On Sunday, March 13, 2005, at 05:38 AM, Bill McCoy wrote:

Any idea when the new edition of the Dorin NP book is due out? I
also haven't looked at the Morming Sun NP color equipment book to
see what they have on these cars. Are these reefers covered there?

Bill,
The NP Color Guide won't be much help for what you are looking for.
There are photos of 91039 and 91471, both taken circa 1969-1971, in the
Scenic Route of the Vista-Dome North Coast Limited scheme and having
red ends.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins

I was not aware the Patrick Dorin had done a book on the NP. GN and CB&Q
and a few other roads bore his name. He authored 28 books to date according
to a search done on Barnes & Noble. Are you confusing this work with
Charles R. Wood? Wood did a NP pictorial published by Superior.

Gene Deimling

--- In STMFC@..., "Mike Brock" <brockm@b...> wrote:

Regarding in service photos of NP reefers, the book Northern

Pacific In

Color by Doug Nighswonger...Morning Sun...includes a nice photo

from above

of an NP reefer. The shot was taken on May 28, 1953, and the

reefer's roof

is a shade of brownish red. The car has the small herald and

lettering under

it. However, the lettering...not distinguishable, is not long

enough for

"Mainstreet of the Northwest". In fact, the car has 8 panels to the

right of

the door...making it, apparently, a car in the 94000 series.

"Not so fast, my friend." Todd Sullivan says in his book NP Color

Guide to

frt and Passenger Cars that this series was built between '55

and '60. It is

noteworthy that the car is performing fairly well two or more yrs

prior to

being built. Furthermore, for a car not built yet, it is

surprisingly well

weathered. To help date the photo, the car is directly behind NP

Challenger

5132 at Garrison, MT, [ shot apparently by James Shuman ] and three

photos

of the train are included among many others shot, apparently, on

the same

day.

Cars of the series 94000 do not appear in the '53 ORER.

Mike Brock

I have lost track on this NP thread between the next run from
Intermountain and those two older cars that were found. Is the latest
run from Intermountain going to be a new P&L scheme for 1947, or will
it be good for WWII, or, specifically, Sept. 1943?
Thanks for any help
Bill Williams

Bill McCoy wrote:

Any idea when the new edition of the Dorin NP book is due out?

Not sure what you're thinking of, Bill, but there is (as yet) no Dorin NP book. There is a Charles Wood NP book, which we plan to reprint along with the NEW book on the NP Lines East by Dorin (which has a freight car chapter by Richard Hendrickson). We hope to get to those books later this year.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

Mike Brock wrote:
The shot was taken on May 28, 1953...In fact, the car has 8 panels to the right of

the door...making it, apparently, a car in the 94000 series.

"Not so fast, my friend." Todd Sullivan says in his book NP Color Guide to
frt and Passenger Cars that this series was built between '55 and '60. It is
noteworthy that the car is performing fairly well two or more yrs prior to
being built. Furthermore, for a car not built yet, it is surprisingly well
weathered. To help date the photo, the car is directly behind NP Challenger
5132 at Garrison, MT, [ shot apparently by James Shuman ] and three photos
of the train are included among many others shot, apparently, on the same
day.

Could the photo date be wrong?

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

Tony, This is the one mentioned in an earlier post. I apoligize for
the se author confusion

Bill McCoy
Jax

ra--- In STMFC@..., Anthony Thompson <thompson@s...>
wrote:

Bill McCoy wrote:

Any idea when the new edition of the Dorin NP book is due out?

Not sure what you're thinking of, Bill, but there is (as

yet) no

Dorin NP book. There is a Charles Wood NP book, which we plan to
reprint along with the NEW book on the NP Lines East by Dorin

(which

has a freight car chapter by Richard Hendrickson). We hope to get

to

those books later this year.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@s...
Publishers of books on railroad history

I haven't seen any mention of Intermountain re-running the NP R40-23.
The folks at the Amarillo Railroad Museum spomsored the R40-25 in
both NP and PFE versions. In my quest to get some of their
proprietary diagonal panel reefer roofs as a separate part for other
reefer projects my Amarillo contacts mentioned that they may be re-
running the long sold out R40-25s. Maybe some members of that group
who I see occasionally post to this group can fill you in.

Bill McCoy
Jax

n`ocolom--- In STMFC@..., "Clyde Williams"
<billdgoat@i...> wrote:

--- In STMFC@..., "Mike Brock" <brockm@b...> wrote:

Regarding in service photos of NP reefers, the book Northern

Pacific In

Color by Doug Nighswonger...Morning Sun...includes a nice photo

from above

of an NP reefer. The shot was taken on May 28, 1953, and the

reefer's roof

is a shade of brownish red. The car has the small herald and

lettering under

it. However, the lettering...not distinguishable, is not long

enough for

"Mainstreet of the Northwest". In fact, the car has 8 panels to

the

right of

the door...making it, apparently, a car in the 94000 series.

"Not so fast, my friend." Todd Sullivan says in his book NP Color

Guide to

frt and Passenger Cars that this series was built between '55

and '60. It is

noteworthy that the car is performing fairly well two or more yrs

prior to

being built. Furthermore, for a car not built yet, it is

surprisingly well

weathered. To help date the photo, the car is directly behind NP

Challenger

5132 at Garrison, MT, [ shot apparently by James Shuman ] and

three

photos

of the train are included among many others shot, apparently, on

the same

day.

Cars of the series 94000 do not appear in the '53 ORER.

Mike Brock

I have lost track on this NP thread between the next run from
Intermountain and those two older cars that were found. Is the

latest

run from Intermountain going to be a new P&L scheme for 1947, or

will

it be good for WWII, or, specifically, Sept. 1943?
Thanks for any help
Bill Williams

The R-40-25 is in production now for another run! Promised by InterMountain
for before Christmas, they are a bit behind schedule. However, you will not
be disappointed!

Tom Jones III
stationmaster@...

Tom, Are the NP reefers going to be all RTR, or can we get kits?
Paul Lyons
Laguna Niguel, CA