"Reciprocal" Switching - Please Explain


raildata@...
 

Near Mingo Junction, Ohio there was at least one bracnh leading to a coal
mine where the NKP operated the branch 6 months of the year and the PRR for the
other 6 months. Have no idea how this arrangment to the "Dorothy Mine" came
about.

Chuck Yungkurth
Boulder CO


centga@...
 

In a message dated 3/14/2005 8:13:38 PM Eastern Standard Time,
raildata@... writes:
Near Mingo Junction, Ohio there was at least one bracnh leading to a coal
mine where the NKP operated the branch 6 months of the year and the PRR for
the
other 6 months. Have no idea how this arrangment to the "Dorothy Mine" came
about
I think a similar arraignment existed on the NF&G between the C&O and the
NYC. Todd Horton


Shawn Beckert
 

List,

Is there a document or publication that explains the details
of "reciprocal switching"? This Western Pacific circular that
I'm wading through seems to give witness to a lot of this.

An example: The Judson-Pacific Murphy Company (a steel plant)
had two tracks in Emeryville with a combined capacity of 80
cars. That's a heckuva lot of gondolas and boxcars moving in
and out. This whole industry is listed on the tracks of the
Southern Pacific, yet the circular shows this as being served
by the Western Pacific.

How did this work? If the trackage was owned by the Espee, I
can't imagine them standing by while WP took the business of
a very large shipper away from them. Money must have changed
hands for the owner of the trackage (SP) to allow a competitor
(WP) to service one of their on-line industries.

Can someone clarify how this sort of transaction was done?

Thanks,

Shawn Beckert


Rob Adams
 

Shawn;

I can't speak to the specifics of the WP/SP arrangements, or to whether this is type of Reciprocal Agreement you are referring, but some of the midwest roads that I'm familiar with would enter into agreements whereby one road would switch certain industries one period (e.g. year), and the other road would handle it the next. I suspect these practices varied a great deal, and may have depended to some extent on how much traffic was generated and how it was ultimately to be routed. Like you, I'd really like to know more about this.

Kind regards, Rob Adams

Beckert, Shawn wrote:

List,

Is there a document or publication that explains the details
of "reciprocal switching"? This Western Pacific circular that
I'm wading through seems to give witness to a lot of this.

An example: The Judson-Pacific Murphy Company (a steel plant)
had two tracks in Emeryville with a combined capacity of 80
cars. That's a heckuva lot of gondolas and boxcars moving in
and out. This whole industry is listed on the tracks of the
Southern Pacific, yet the circular shows this as being served
by the Western Pacific.

How did this work? If the trackage was owned by the Espee, I
can't imagine them standing by while WP took the business of
a very large shipper away from them. Money must have changed
hands for the owner of the trackage (SP) to allow a competitor
(WP) to service one of their on-line industries.

Can someone clarify how this sort of transaction was done?

Thanks,

Shawn Beckert


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Gary Roe
 

Shawn asked
Is there a document or publication that explains the details of "reciprocal switching"?



Shawn,

Yes, there is. John Armstrong's book "The Railroad, What It Is, What It Does" will explain it very nicely. My copy is packed away for an impending move, or I would quote from it for you.

gary roe


Paul & Theri Koehler <buygone@...>
 

Shawn:



When an industry was within the "Reciprocal Switching Limits" any carries
serving that "Switching Limits" was considered to be serving that industry.
In your example the SP physically served the industry, but WP could solicit
the long haul on any inbound or outbound traffic and all SP got for the
handling was a switching charge. If on the other hand the industry was not
within the "Reciprocal Switching Limits" then the SP would get a division of
the line haul revenue.



Paul C. Koehler



_____

From: Beckert, Shawn [mailto:Shawn.Beckert@...]
Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 2:41 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] "Reciprocal" Switching - Please Explain



List,

Is there a document or publication that explains the details
of "reciprocal switching"? This Western Pacific circular that
I'm wading through seems to give witness to a lot of this.

An example: The Judson-Pacific Murphy Company (a steel plant)
had two tracks in Emeryville with a combined capacity of 80
cars. That's a heckuva lot of gondolas and boxcars moving in
and out. This whole industry is listed on the tracks of the
Southern Pacific, yet the circular shows this as being served
by the Western Pacific.

How did this work? If the trackage was owned by the Espee, I
can't imagine them standing by while WP took the business of
a very large shipper away from them. Money must have changed
hands for the owner of the trackage (SP) to allow a competitor
(WP) to service one of their on-line industries.

Can someone clarify how this sort of transaction was done?

Thanks,

Shawn Beckert






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Paul & Theri Koehler <buygone@...>
 

Shawn:



When an industry was within the "Reciprocal Switching Limits" any carries
serving that "Switching Limits" was considered to be serving that industry.
In your example the SP physically served the industry, but WP could solicit
the long haul on any inbound or outbound traffic and all SP got for the
handling was a switching charge. If on the other hand the industry was not
within the "Reciprocal Switching Limits" then the SP would get a division of
the line haul revenue.



Paul C. Koehler



_____

From: Beckert, Shawn [mailto:Shawn.Beckert@...]
Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 2:41 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] "Reciprocal" Switching - Please Explain



List,

Is there a document or publication that explains the details
of "reciprocal switching"? This Western Pacific circular that
I'm wading through seems to give witness to a lot of this.

An example: The Judson-Pacific Murphy Company (a steel plant)
had two tracks in Emeryville with a combined capacity of 80
cars. That's a heckuva lot of gondolas and boxcars moving in
and out. This whole industry is listed on the tracks of the
Southern Pacific, yet the circular shows this as being served
by the Western Pacific.

How did this work? If the trackage was owned by the Espee, I
can't imagine them standing by while WP took the business of
a very large shipper away from them. Money must have changed
hands for the owner of the trackage (SP) to allow a competitor
(WP) to service one of their on-line industries.

Can someone clarify how this sort of transaction was done?

Thanks,

Shawn Beckert





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Bill McCoy <bugsy451@...>
 

Reciprocal switching is a tarrif provision by which one carrier will
deliver to it's on line industry cars that were brought to town by
another, some times competing carrier.

Freight revenue is usually divided into 2 categories, line haul and
switching. The line haul rates are usually divided on interline
shipmwnts roughly by percentage based on the proportion of the
mileage on each carrier participating in the route. Origin and
destination carriers get an extra portion to cover local costs. When
the car reaches it's final destination city terminal area as defined
by the local switching tarrif, delivery to the consignee (or being
forwarded from industry by the shipper) can be performed by another
carrier with their switching charge for this local service being
absorbed in whole or in part by the line haul carrier.

Industries are in the following categories:
Open to reciprocal switching
Closed to recriprocal switching
A local ststion (not in the switching limits defined by tarrif even
though it may be part of the metropolitain area). For example
Naperville, while considered part of the Chicago metropolitian area
is a local station on the BNSF. Moser Lumber would not have been open
to reciprocal switching if it was still there.

Recriprocal switching was a major bone of contention between carries
and customers. Custoners wanted it with no restrictions because`of
the competive options it gave them. Carriers hated it because of the
chance of getting less than $100 revenue from a switch charge instead
of infinately more as the line haul carrier. As a salesman for the
SAL/SCL?FLRS nothing was worse than to be switched on ompetitive
traffic from the Southern. This was good for a large dose of
leadership from my boss about my relationship with my customers.

Dealing with switching is arcane in the exreme and a fascinating back
shop part of the railroad business. For some carriers this was their
whole reason for existance (BRC, IHB, NOPB, NPBL et.al). For the line
haul carrier it usually was a cross to bear except on non competitive
traffic where they couldn't have participated such as pacific
northwest traffic at chicago being switched by the NYC for the MILW
or CNW.

Deregulation reduced these options considerably but the issue still
exists.

I expect the case of Judson-Pacific Murphy at Emeryville, a large
shipper, would have made his locating a plant conditional on open,
unrestricted reciprocal switching especially since all three carriers
were expected to supply equipment and no doubt the WP wouldn't have
much interest in LA bound traffic.

Bill McCoy
Jax





Rob Adams <steamera@n...> wrote:
Shawn;

I can't speak to the specifics of the WP/SP arrangements, or to
whether
this is type of Reciprocal Agreement you are referring, but some of
the
midwest roads that I'm familiar with would enter into agreements
whereby
one road would switch certain industries one period (e.g. year),
and the
other road would handle it the next. I suspect these practices
varied a
great deal, and may have depended to some extent on how much
traffic was
generated and how it was ultimately to be routed. Like you, I'd
really
like to know more about this.

Kind regards, Rob Adams

Beckert, Shawn wrote:

List,

Is there a document or publication that explains the details
of "reciprocal switching"? This Western Pacific circular that
I'm wading through seems to give witness to a lot of this.

An example: The Judson-Pacific Murphy Company (a steel plant)
had two tracks in Emeryville with a combined capacity of 80
cars. That's a heckuva lot of gondolas and boxcars moving in
and out. This whole industry is listed on the tracks of the
Southern Pacific, yet the circular shows this as being served
by the Western Pacific.

How did this work? If the trackage was owned by the Espee, I
can't imagine them standing by while WP took the business of
a very large shipper away from them. Money must have changed
hands for the owner of the trackage (SP) to allow a competitor
(WP) to service one of their on-line industries.

Can someone clarify how this sort of transaction was done?

Thanks,

Shawn Beckert


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Paul & Theri Koehler <buygone@...>
 

Shawn:



When an industry was within the "Reciprocal Switching Limits" any carries
serving that "Switching Limits" was considered to be serving that industry.
In your example the SP physically served the industry, but WP could solicit
the long haul on any inbound or outbound traffic and all SP got for the
handling was a switching charge. If on the other hand the industry was not
within the "Reciprocal Switching Limits" then the SP would get a division of
the line haul revenue.



Paul C. Koehler



_____

From: Beckert, Shawn [mailto:Shawn.Beckert@...]
Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 2:41 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] "Reciprocal" Switching - Please Explain



List,

Is there a document or publication that explains the details
of "reciprocal switching"? This Western Pacific circular that
I'm wading through seems to give witness to a lot of this.

An example: The Judson-Pacific Murphy Company (a steel plant)
had two tracks in Emeryville with a combined capacity of 80
cars. That's a heckuva lot of gondolas and boxcars moving in
and out. This whole industry is listed on the tracks of the
Southern Pacific, yet the circular shows this as being served
by the Western Pacific.

How did this work? If the trackage was owned by the Espee, I
can't imagine them standing by while WP took the business of
a very large shipper away from them. Money must have changed
hands for the owner of the trackage (SP) to allow a competitor
(WP) to service one of their on-line industries.

Can someone clarify how this sort of transaction was done?

Thanks,

Shawn Beckert




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Kathe Robin <kathe@...>
 

The arrangement for the NF&G between the C&O and NYC was on a 6 month
basis, at least until 1950. Hence the C&O operated the line and all
customers for 6 months and the NYC operated and served customers the
next 6 months. There was usually a provision to balance out locomotive
usage/milage such that each carrier made the same revenue and had
similar expenses.

Max
-----------------------------------------------------
email: m_robin@...

smail: Max S. Robin, P.E.
Cheat River Engineering Inc.
23 Richwood Place / P. O. Box 289
Denville, NJ 07834 - 0289

voice: 973-627-5895 (Home: 7:30 AM - 10:30 PM EST)
973-627-5460 (Business: 8:00 AM - 10:30 PM EST)
973-945-5007 (Cellular: 7:00 AM - MidNight EST)
-----------------------------------------------------


Dave Nelson <muskoka@...>
 

In practical terms wasn't it essentially limited to deliveries only? In the
Emeryville case cited earlier, what inducement would SP have for timely
pickup and transfer to the WP for an outbound load?

Dave Nelson

-----Original Message-----
From: Paul & Theri Koehler [mailto:buygone@...]


When an industry was within the "Reciprocal Switching Limits" any carries
serving that "Switching Limits" was considered to be serving that industry.
In your example the SP physically served the industry, but WP could solicit
the long haul on any inbound or outbound traffic and all SP got for the
handling was a switching charge. If on the other hand the industry was not
within the "Reciprocal Switching Limits" then the SP would get a division of
the line haul revenue.



Paul C. Koehler


Shawn Beckert
 

Paul Koehler wrote:

When an industry was within the "Reciprocal Switching Limits" any carries
serving that "Switching Limits" was considered to be serving that industry.
In your example the SP physically served the industry, but WP could solicit
the long haul on any inbound or outbound traffic and all SP got for the
handling was a switching charge. If on the other hand the industry was not
within the "Reciprocal Switching Limits" then the SP would get a division of
the line haul revenue.
I'm with you so far on this - basically it behooved the Southern Pacific to
offer competitive rates and service to these Bay Area shippers in order to keep
the business from being stolen by WP, AT&SF etc. Now, as to the subject of the
"switching districts" - all this would be laid out with SP and WP tariffs filed
with the ICC, would it not? Have any (or all) of these tariffs been preserved
someplace by the government, or anyone else for that matter? Obviously if I want
to find out which railroad was allowed to switch its competitors shippers, I'll
need to track down some of these tariffs. If they still exist...

As a side note, in leafing through this circular it's become clear that a large
majority of industries in the Bay Area were located on railroads other than WP.
Obviously the Wobbly would really have had to hustle to try and steal business
away from the SP and Santa Fe, who of course would take a dim view of this. I do
wonder if this isn't the reason the WP struggled all its life, and ended up being
eaten by the Union Pacific?

Shawn Beckert


Charlie Vlk
 

As I understand it from examples I've seen over the years "Reciprocal Switching" agreements were made for a number of reasons:
1) At the request (pressure) of the shipper / receiver so they would have better service.
2) In spite of a great deal of evidence to the contrary, occasionally railroads did use common sense. Reciprocal Switching was invoked
when railroads each served certain industries within a town (for example) and it did not make sense for them to haul pickups back to
their own yards, then turn around and deliver them to an interchange and the reverse for deliveries. The key is that the business was
roughly equal for both roads and that the revenues from performing the local work for another road's hauls would be balanced out by the
charges on the other side.
3. For a road to gain access to a potential customer that they would not have been able to serve directly otherwise.
I imagine that these issues and others were all subject to negotiation; perhaps with trade-offs in other markets that created some seemingly
unequal local arrangements.
"Reciprocal" Switching arrangements certainly provide an excuse for justifying "foreign" road power in our operations schemes.
Charlie Vlk


Paul & Theri Koehler <buygone@...>
 

Shawn:



There is or was a Tariff "Leland's Open and Prepay" you will need to check
the spelling on Leland's, that lists all railroads stations and weather or
not they were open. It behooved all railroads to maintain an aggressive
Sales department to minimize their short hauls in these situations. When it
was found that a given industry was short hauling you as a carrier, you
could disrupt their flow of cars with disrupted switching and not placing
the empties which would need to be supplied by the long haul carrier. This
could backfire on the carrier or could result in a change of policy by the
shipper.



Paul C. Koehler



_____

From: Beckert, Shawn [mailto:Shawn.Beckert@...]
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 10:31 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: "Reciprocal" Switching - Please Explain



Paul Koehler wrote:

When an industry was within the "Reciprocal Switching Limits" any carries
serving that "Switching Limits" was considered to be serving that
industry.
In your example the SP physically served the industry, but WP could
solicit
the long haul on any inbound or outbound traffic and all SP got for the
handling was a switching charge. If on the other hand the industry was
not
within the "Reciprocal Switching Limits" then the SP would get a division
of
the line haul revenue.
I'm with you so far on this - basically it behooved the Southern Pacific to
offer competitive rates and service to these Bay Area shippers in order to
keep
the business from being stolen by WP, AT&SF etc. Now, as to the subject of
the
"switching districts" - all this would be laid out with SP and WP tariffs
filed
with the ICC, would it not? Have any (or all) of these tariffs been
preserved
someplace by the government, or anyone else for that matter? Obviously if I
want
to find out which railroad was allowed to switch its competitors shippers,
I'll
need to track down some of these tariffs. If they still exist...

As a side note, in leafing through this circular it's become clear that a
large
majority of industries in the Bay Area were located on railroads other than
WP.
Obviously the Wobbly would really have had to hustle to try and steal
business
away from the SP and Santa Fe, who of course would take a dim view of this.
I do
wonder if this isn't the reason the WP struggled all its life, and ended up
being
eaten by the Union Pacific?

Shawn Beckert





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Bill McCoy <bugsy451@...>
 

The open an prepay station list does not do any thing other than
identify stations, their location, station number and whether it is
an "open" ie. can receive colect and COD shipments and a station that
can only receice prepaid shipments. In earlier days "open" roughly
meant a full service station with agent and "prepaid" meant no agent
to be able to handle collect shipments. Open and Prepays, especially
old ones are interesting in that they have a section listing stations
by line segment many of which don't appear in timetables.

Each terminal or group of terminals has a tariff that deals with
industry status including what constitutes switchable traffic.

Bill McCoy
Jax



--- In STMFC@..., "Paul & Theri Koehler" <buygone@e...>
wrote:
Shawn:



There is or was a Tariff "Leland's Open and Prepay" you will need
to check
the spelling on Leland's, that lists all railroads stations and
weather or
not they were open. It behooved all railroads to maintain an
aggressive
Sales department to minimize their short hauls in these
situations. When it
was found that a given industry was short hauling you as a carrier,
you
could disrupt their flow of cars with disrupted switching and not
placing
the empties which would need to be supplied by the long haul
carrier. This
could backfire on the carrier or could result in a change of policy
by the
shipper.



Paul C. Koehler



_____

From: Beckert, Shawn [mailto:Shawn.Beckert@d...]
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 10:31 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: "Reciprocal" Switching - Please Explain



Paul Koehler wrote:

When an industry was within the "Reciprocal Switching Limits" any
carries
serving that "Switching Limits" was considered to be serving that
industry.
In your example the SP physically served the industry, but WP
could
solicit
the long haul on any inbound or outbound traffic and all SP got
for the
handling was a switching charge. If on the other hand the
industry was
not
within the "Reciprocal Switching Limits" then the SP would get a
division
of
the line haul revenue.
I'm with you so far on this - basically it behooved the Southern
Pacific to
offer competitive rates and service to these Bay Area shippers in
order to
keep
the business from being stolen by WP, AT&SF etc. Now, as to the
subject of
the
"switching districts" - all this would be laid out with SP and WP
tariffs
filed
with the ICC, would it not? Have any (or all) of these tariffs been
preserved
someplace by the government, or anyone else for that matter?
Obviously if I
want
to find out which railroad was allowed to switch its competitors
shippers,
I'll
need to track down some of these tariffs. If they still exist...

As a side note, in leafing through this circular it's become clear
that a
large
majority of industries in the Bay Area were located on railroads
other than
WP.
Obviously the Wobbly would really have had to hustle to try and
steal
business
away from the SP and Santa Fe, who of course would take a dim view
of this.
I do
wonder if this isn't the reason the WP struggled all its life, and
ended up
being
eaten by the Union Pacific?

Shawn Beckert





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ljack70117@...
 

On Tuesday, March 15, 2005, at 06:57 PM, Bill McCoy wrote:



The open an prepay station list does not do any thing other than
identify stations, their location, station number and whether it is
an "open" ie. can receive colect and COD shipments and a station that
can only receice prepaid shipments. In earlier days "open" roughly
meant a full service station with agent and "prepaid" meant no agent
to be able to handle collect shipments. Open and Prepays, especially
old ones are interesting in that they have a section listing stations
by line segment many of which don't appear in timetables.

Each terminal or group of terminals has a tariff that deals with
industry status including what constitutes switchable traffic.

Bill McCoy
Jax
On the Santa Fe and UPRR that I worked there was never a closed station. To start all stations had an agent. As cost started going up the RRs closed some stations by getting rid of the agent. But the station was not closed. The agent from an adjoining town handled the worked at the station that had no agent. So for a practical purposes the station could still handle COD freight bills. This was back in the 40s/50/ and early 60s.
At Salina Ks on the UPRR if we got a car in for a company on the MOP we would interchanged it and the MOP only got a switching charge. The same if the MOP had a car for Salina but the company was on the UPRR they they interchanged it to us and all we cot was a switching charge. We had a flour mill that was jointly switch by the UPRR and the CRI&P. The RI only had a local that came to town once a day. We had 5 yard engines in a 24 hour period. If the mill needed a switch while the RI was in town, they did the work and set their cars in and remover any cars needed to come out. They would take their cars (loads and mtys)But if they had handled any of our cars they would leave them first out on the the tail track leading to the mill. If we switch the mill we would take out our cars and leave the RI cars first out on the tail track. Neither road charged the other for handling each others cars.
One night we had more cars for the MOP than could fit on the interchange. So our switch crew left them all coupled and hanging out on our tracks. When the MOP crew pull the interchange they saw what we had done and they turned in a time slip or 8 hours of switching our RR. They got paid and our crew caught H**L. We were trying to beat the 11:59 PM time for getting cars off our RR and avoid and extra day of charges.
If you could get a car onto the interchange by 11:59 PM and call the clerk of the other RR then it was not on your RR any more.

Thank you
Larry Jackman
ljack70117@...
I wish the buck stopped here as I could use a few


CBarkan@...
 

In a message dated 3/15/05 12:46:28 PM, shawn.beckert@... writes:
<< As a side note, in leafing through this circular it's become clear that a
large

majority of industries in the Bay Area were located on railroads other than
WP.

Obviously the Wobbly would really have had to hustle to try and steal business

away from the SP and Santa Fe, who of course would take a dim view of this. I
do

wonder if this isn't the reason the WP struggled all its life, and ended up
being

eaten by the Union Pacific?

Shawn Beckert >>

Shawn,

This is part of the "franchise" that RRs refer to. In general, I think it
tended to coincide with who got somewhere first. That road obviously got to the
industries already there, and when other industries came in they tended to
locate on the existing line. The newcomer had to overcome this.

I have been told by a former employee of the B&O marketing department that
this is one reason why the PRR was so dominant in the territory they compted in,
the PRR tended to have the better franchise. I am no SP expert but that is
certainly the impression I have of them, particularly in California.

Chris


Bill McCoy <bugsy451@...>
 

Most significant industry located after the serving railroad already
was in place or was the reason for the railroad to build to them. It
would be natural for most industry in more recent times to locate on
the carrier that would have the equipment resources to serve their
needs and single line service to their primary markets or material
sources to simplify rate making. It's important to remember that most
pre trucking rail freight was a 300 mile or less business rather than
cross country. Because of the dollar minimums that railroads have to
have to have to provide equipment and local service short haul joint
iine rates are disproportionately high. Reciprocal switching is an
additional competitive bonus sought by industry however many carriers
would not absorb local switching on noncompetitive traffic. For
instance, on traffic originating at a local station on the Southern
destined an open industry on the ACL, the SOU would not absorb the
switching giving more reason to locate on the same railroad as the
industries primary customers or especially suppliers.

Bill McCoy
Jax



--- In STMFC@..., CBarkan@a... wrote:
In a message dated 3/15/05 12:46:28 PM, shawn.beckert@d... writes:
<< As a side note, in leafing through this circular it's become
clear that a
large

majority of industries in the Bay Area were located on railroads
other than
WP.

Obviously the Wobbly would really have had to hustle to try and
steal business

away from the SP and Santa Fe, who of course would take a dim view
of this. I
do

wonder if this isn't the reason the WP struggled all its life, and
ended up
being

eaten by the Union Pacific?

Shawn Beckert >>

Shawn,

This is part of the "franchise" that RRs refer to. In general, I
think it
tended to coincide with who got somewhere first. That road
obviously got to the
industries already there, and when other industries came in they
tended to
locate on the existing line. The newcomer had to overcome this.

I have been told by a former employee of the B&O marketing
department that
this is one reason why the PRR was so dominant in the territory
they compted in,
the PRR tended to have the better franchise. I am no SP expert but
that is
certainly the impression I have of them, particularly in California.

Chris