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Freight Car Wheels
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My notes have Cast Iron Wheels (Ribbed Back) being outlawed for new equipment
in 1957, and restricted from interchange in 1970. |
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Jeff English
--- In STMFC@..., land46lord@a... wrote:
new equipment in 1957, and restricted from interchange in 1970.The 1957 date may have been an earlier proposed deadline that would have been extended to the final actual 1/1/58 date. Or maybe you were showing 1957 as the last year in which cast iron wheels <were> allowed to be fitted to new cars. I continue to search for documentation of the no-interchange-at-all date, which, as I said earlier, probably was indeed around 1970. Jeff English Troy, New York |
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Guy Wilber
In a message dated 3/21/05 6:45:42 AM Pacific Standard Time, englij@...
writes: << The 1957 date may have been an earlier proposed deadline that would have been extended to the final actual 1/1/58 date. Or maybe you were showing 1957 as the last year in which cast iron wheels <were> allowed to be fitted to new cars. >> Jeff, Your date is accurate; Cast Iron Wheels were prohibited on all "cars built new or rebuilt on and after January 1, 1958." New Paragraph (5) was added to section (w) of Interchange Rule No. 3 in 1956. The rule amendment was voted upon (via letter ballot) by the membership and was overwhelmingly approved. There was no proposed ban date falling within 1957. Kind Regards, Guy Wilber Earthquake Faults, Nevada |
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Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
Guy Wilber wrote:
Your date is accurate; Cast Iron Wheels were prohibited on all "cars builtWere substantial quantities of cast IRON wheels still being made? Cast steel wheels came in during the 1930s and my understanding was that by 1950 or so, had substantially displaced cast iron. Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@... Publishers of books on railroad history |
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Guy Wilber
In a message dated 3/22/05 9:50:59 AM Pacific Standard Time,
thompson@... writes: << Were substantial quantities of cast IRON wheels still being made? Cast steel wheels came in during the 1930s and my understanding was that by 1950 or so, had substantially displaced cast iron. >> Tony, The AAR membership vote (1956) in favor of banning the application of cast iron wheels was nearly twice the number needed for passage. The rule change was added to the next printed supplement which was most likely issued in August. The only protests came from the wheel manufacturers organizations. Their belief was that the iron wheels had progressed to an acceptable level of quality to still be in use. I have no actual numbers, but AAR notes (6/1958) stated; "During the last twelve months six cast iron wheel foundries have been permanently closed in the United States and two have closed in Canada. This represents very close to twenty-five percent of total capacity." A.T. Kott notes the 1959 wheels...I can't find any extension of the rule within my data though my 1957 books are not accesible at the moment. Bill Kelly might have information (at hand). The real proof would be the required AAR stampings on that wheel set. If those marks include an "X" they may have been permitted under AAR guidelines for experimental wheels. An interesting aside to the cast iron wheel revolves around the manufacture of 70 ton wheels applied to covered hoppers of the 1950s. The failure rate was substantial and initiated the first ban of cast iron wheels. Rule 3, w, 4, was added in 1954; "Wheels, cast iron, 70 ton capacity, prohibited on covered hopper cars built new or rebuilt on and after August 1, 1954, and on all cars in interchange on and after January 1, 1956. Regards, Guy Wilber Sparks, Nevada |
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Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
Thanks for the added information, Guy. I was interested if you might have any info on the issue of steel vs. iron wheels produced by casting. In 1932, PFE conducted a trial of cast steel vs. wrought steel wheels, and found both significantly superior to cast iron wheels. Whether wrought steel wheels were more available or superior in performance to cast steel, I don't know from the PFE records, but I do know they had a hard time buying enough steel wheels to replace cast iron, even as late as 1950.
Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@... Publishers of books on railroad history |
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proto48er
--- In STMFC@..., Anthony Thompson <thompson@s...> wrote:
do know they had a hard time buying enough steel wheels to replacecast iron, even as late as 1950.Tony - The "iron" wheels were really chilled iron wheels - actually a composite of two different forms of cast iron in a single casting. They were much easier to make than cast steel wheels - see my previous post on cracking upon cooling of steel castings. Chilled iron wheels were made for MANY years and were old technology. As noted in Guy Wilbur's post, there were still 25 or so manufacturing facilities making them in 1956 - only 8 had been shut down. A lot more foundries made them than made cast steel wheels - it was a regular decentralized cottage industry. The glass was still more than 3/4 full in 1956, in spite of the more negative comment of the committee. Again, the type of mold used caused the hot iron to contact a cold surface in the tread area upon pouring. This produced "white iron" which was much more hard and durable than ordinary cast iron. This white iron was also suitable for use in medium run dies for metal stamping - tough stuff. It has a metallurgically different grain structure because of the chilling in the mold - I recall that it has less carbon in it than ordinary cast iron (don't hold me to that, though). The surface of the tread, to a depth of an inch or so, was hard, durable white iron. The remainder of the wheel was ordinary cast iron which is amazingly resiliant under load. These wheels were somewhat akin to having a steel tire on an integral cast iron wheel and hub. However, when the tire tread wore through the hard part, the wheel went bad quickly - it was not of uniform composition like the cast steel wheels. This is probably what caused their downfall. I saw them on MOW boxcars on MP even into the 1980's. Hope this helps. A.T. Kott |
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Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
A.T. Kott wrote:
Tony - The "iron" wheels were really chilled iron wheels - actually aYes. I'm a metallurgist and understand the product. I also understand why they were inferior to cast steel wheels, but am not sure of the relative advantages or tradeoffs of cast vs. wrought steel wheels. The latter likely performed better but probably cost more. Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@... Publishers of books on railroad history |
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Tom Jones III <tomtherailnut@...>
The relative differences between cast chilled iron wheels and wrought steel
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wheels is the relative difference in metalurgical skill of the era. Cast chilled iron wheels were generally available from an era that had not yet perfected wrought steel technologies. However, casting iron had been perfected for over one hundred years. As wrought steel became more common, the benefits of it soon outstripped the problems with cast iron. Benefits included a relatively harder, more stable wheel; fewer cracked or exploded wheels from improper brake cooling or casting inclusions; and a longer life. Chilled iron wheels generally were only trueable once or perhaps twice before cutting through the harder "chilled" tread, whereas wrought steel can be retrued several times before the wheel is no longer serviceable. So, the advantage of steel wheels is they were cheaper in the long haul. This is due primarily to that they lasted longer, were safer, and rebuildable, hence making the initial purchase price lesser of an objective compared to the cost of the wheel over its life. Interestingly, the advances in wheel metal and casting techniques were mirrored (or, perhaps led by) casting techniques used in locomotive frame development. Up until the early 1900's, locomotive frames were cast iron, but cast steel became more common over time. Early frames were often made up of several castings bolted or riveted together, but later steel frames soon were being cast in single huge castings that included the cylinder block. These are massive steel castings that required substantial skill development to learn to cast - steel wheels came along about the same time and started proving their technological excellence. Tom Jones III ----- Original Message -----
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Freight Car Wheels
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Andy Miller <asmiller@...>
If the surface, "to a depth of an inch or so", wore out, the wheel was by
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then two inches under nominal diameter! I would think it would have be replaced long ago no matter what the core material was! I am suspicious therefore that these wheels were phased out because of there inability to function well after losing two inches of tread. I don't think any type of wheel can pass that test. regards, Andy Miller -----Original Message-----
From: proto48er [mailto:atkott@...] Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 9:00 PM To: STMFC@... Subject: [STMFC] Re: Freight Car Wheels --- In STMFC@..., Anthony Thompson <thompson@s...> wrote: do know they had a hard time buying enough steel wheels to replacecast iron, even as late as 1950.Tony - The "iron" wheels were really chilled iron wheels - actually a composite of two different forms of cast iron in a single casting. They were much easier to make than cast steel wheels - see my previous post on cracking upon cooling of steel castings. Chilled iron wheels were made for MANY years and were old technology. As noted in Guy Wilbur's post, there were still 25 or so manufacturing facilities making them in 1956 - only 8 had been shut down. A lot more foundries made them than made cast steel wheels - it was a regular decentralized cottage industry. The glass was still more than 3/4 full in 1956, in spite of the more negative comment of the committee. Again, the type of mold used caused the hot iron to contact a cold surface in the tread area upon pouring. This produced "white iron" which was much more hard and durable than ordinary cast iron. This white iron was also suitable for use in medium run dies for metal stamping - tough stuff. It has a metallurgically different grain structure because of the chilling in the mold - I recall that it has less carbon in it than ordinary cast iron (don't hold me to that, though). The surface of the tread, to a depth of an inch or so, was hard, durable white iron. The remainder of the wheel was ordinary cast iron which is amazingly resiliant under load. These wheels were somewhat akin to having a steel tire on an integral cast iron wheel and hub. However, when the tire tread wore through the hard part, the wheel went bad quickly - it was not of uniform composition like the cast steel wheels. This is probably what caused their downfall. I saw them on MOW boxcars on MP even into the 1980's. Hope this helps. A.T. Kott ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Give the gift of life to a sick child. Support St. Jude Children's Research Hospital's 'Thanks & Giving.' http://us.click.yahoo.com/5iY7fA/6WnJAA/Y3ZIAA/9MtolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links |
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raildata@...
To add to Tony and Richard's comments, I am positive that locomotive frames
were never made from cast iron. English practice was to make them from iron sheet while American builders used iron or steel bars until steel casting was perfected. Cast iron is notoriously unreliable in tension as earlier English bridge builders found....with disastrous results! Chuck Y Boulder CO |
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Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
Tom Jones III wrote:
The relative differences between cast chilled iron wheels and wrought steelI don't agree. Wrought steel wheels were made early in the 20th century but were quite expensive relative to chilled iron wheels. Chilled iron wheels generally were only trueable once or perhaps twiceThis is misleading. In the 1930s and later, one could purchase single-wear, double-wear and multiple-wear wheels, obviously of different tread thicknesses, but it is NOT true that any arbitrarily chosen steel wheel could be recontoured multiple times. The tradeoff was that the single wear wheel was both cheaper and lighter. The advantages of multiple use had to be "weighed" against the disadvantages of weight and cost. PFE tried out all three types and concluded by the late 1940s that the single-wear wheel was the most economical overall. Interestingly, the advances in wheel metal and casting techniques wereI disagree. Even in the 19th century, frames were predominantly of rolled and machined wrought iron (succeeded by wrought steel in the 1880s), with a few castings for particular uses attached. And the earliest cast frames, introduced about 1900, were steel castings, just not the huge, one-piece frames that were introduced in the mid-1920s. Of course, the casting of wheels is far simpler than frame parts, and IMO the advancing technology of locomotive frames tells you nothing about wheels. Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@... Publishers of books on railroad history |
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Richard Hendrickson
Several members of this list have been sharing their misconceptions regarding chilled iron vs. wrought steel wheels without consulting any of the extensive documentation on this subject. To quote from one of the most authortiative and readily available sources, John H. White Jr.'s
<The American Railroad Freight Car> (p.481): "Of course, no one really pretended that cast iron was superior to steel. The reason it prevailed was that it was so much cheaper. It continued also because a simpler form of cast wheel was developed in 1917 to replace the Washburn pattern: a single plate design known as the arch wheel which became standard in 1928. Several million of these wheels were produced each year until cast iron wheels were outlawed [on new cars] by the Association of American Railroads in 1958." And, it may be added, on all cars in 1968. In his <The American Railroad Passenger Car> White notes that commercial production of rolled steel wheels began as early as 1903 and that, for reasons of safety, steel wheels were used on 80% of passenger cars by the mid-1920s. In 1930, however, 95% of freight cars still rode on chilled cast iron wheels. White states that "the prolonged acceptance of cast wheels for freight cars was based on what constituted reasonable risk weighed against first cost. They were considered safe enough for this service, and their very low first cost was a definite attraction." BTW, disagreeing with Tony Thompson on this subject is unwise, as he is a highly qualified metallurgist and materials scientist with degrees from Stanford, the University of Washington, and MIT and a long professional career in teaching, research and consulting. Richard Hendrickson |
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Ted Culotta <tculotta@...>
On Mar 24, 2005, at 11:54 AM, Richard Hendrickson wrote:
BTW, disagreeing with Tony Thompson on this subject is unwise, as he isWhat's that saying about those who can't do, teach and those who can't teach, consult? Running for cover with tongue firmly in cheek.... Regards, Ted Culotta Speedwitch Media 100 14th Avenue, San Mateo, CA 94402 info@... www.speedwitch.com (650) 787-1912 |
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Richard Hendrickson
On Mar 24, 2005, at 12:10 PM, Ted Culotta wrote:
C'mon, Ted, while your tongue is in your cheek, bite down hard on it as a reminder to think before activating keyboard. Teaching, research, and consulting is what metallurgists do. They research the properties of metals and make that information available to the engineers who design metal things and to the founders, machinists, millwrights, etc. who make metal or metal objects. By analogy with your cheap shot, we shouldn't take astronomers very seriously because all they do is study the universe and tell us what's out there, they don't actually produce stars and planets. |
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proto48er
--- In STMFC@..., Anthony Thompson <thompson@s...> wrote:
A.T. Kott wrote:actually aTony - The "iron" wheels were really chilled iron wheels - Tony - I did not know you are a metallurgist!! I have a couple ofcomposite of two different forms of cast iron in a single casting.Yes. I'm a metallurgist and understand the product.... questions for you regarding "wrought steel wheels" - how the heck did they make them? Were they forged hot between dies? Is that what the term "wrought" means? In one of my previous rambling posts, I discussed casting of trailing truck sideframes and cracking. It was my understanding from somewhere that "cast steel wheels" suffered from the same cracking problems until just prior to WWII. At that time, foundries figured out how to design and cool them properly so that they were not prone to cracks. Also, someone mentioned that 1" wear was a lot on a freight car wheel. About 20 years ago, when a group of us were discussing potential wheel standards for PROTO48 (a type of "O" scale fine scale), the question of flange depth arose. From a MODEL engineering standpoint, it is desirable to have the deepest flange possible. The flange depth on a new prototype wheel was 1" high, as I recall. The flange depth on a wheel at the condemning limit was 1-1/2". This corresponds to 0.021" and 0.031" respectively in 1/48 scale. As I recall, the flange depth of 0.026" was chosen for the standard, since it represented a wheel halfway to the wear limit on the prototype. ("O" scale finescale, by comparison, has a 0.021" flange depth - representing a new wheel). So, I guess that 1/2" of tread wear into the chilled iron wheel perimeter would be the maximum allowable wear. A.T. Kott |
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Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
A.T. Kott said:
Tony - I did not know you are a metallurgist!! I have a couple of questions for you regarding "wrought steel wheels" - how the heck did"Wrought" means any kind of working. And yes, the wheels are forged in dies. In one of my previous rambling posts, I discussed casting of trailingI doubt this story very much. Cast steel sideframes for freight and passenger trucks were being marketed shortly after 1900, and were entirely competent castings by 1920. The same is true, after all, for locomotive frame components, drivers, cylinders, and other large and critical steel castings. That a foundry could not "figure out" how to cast a symmetrical shape like a wheel without cracking as late as World War II is just not remotely credible. Also, someone mentioned that 1" wear was a lot on a freight carI think an inch is about the upper limit. Convert that to pounds on four 33-inch wheels and you'll be surprised at the number. Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@... Publishers of books on railroad history |
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proto48er
--- In STMFC@..., Anthony Thompson <thompson@s...> wrote:
A.T. Kott said:figured proneout how to design and cool them properly so that they were not freightto cracks.I doubt this story very much. Cast steel sideframes for and passenger trucks were being marketed shortly after 1900, andwere entirely competent castings by 1920. The same is true, after all,for locomotive frame components, drivers, cylinders, and other largeand critical steel castings.... Tony - Thanks for the response - always wondered how the "wrot stl whls" were made! I agree that steel wheels should have been in use earlier, considering the other, more complicated castings were perfected years before. Do you have any opinion as to why cast steel wheels were not used prior to the late 1930's in any quantity? Also, were passenger car wheels during the 1920's and later made of cast steel or of wrought steel? Perhaps the rr's had a bad experience with early trials of cast steel wheels on heavier (than pass. car) freight cars. Also, the rolling weight at the tread may have caused problems with work hardening in the earlier steel alloys, causing shelling out of the tread area. One last question - what is that honkin' big hole for in the hub on the backside of the typical chilled iron wheel? They were not pinned to the axle! Was the hole necessary because of the steel axle/iron wheel press fit? Thanks again! I love this board!! I love freight cars!! A.T. Kott |
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Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
A.T. Kott writes:
I agree that steel wheels should have been in use earlier,Cost, cost, cost. But passenger wheels were REQUIRED to be steel, at least as early as 1945, because of their lower failure rate. Someone on the list may know when this requirement was instituted. Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@... Publishers of books on railroad history |
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