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Rutland Ps-1 boxcars
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Brian J Carlson <brian@...>
I have 2 of the Kadee PS-1 boxcars, 248,294 built 3-56. I only have a 1955
ORER so how many of these cars did the Rutland have anyway, and how far traveled were they? Were they purchased with any specific use in mind? I searched the archives, (much faster now) but found no information. I model NW Pa in 1957 and am contemplating using these cars on an Erie Maybrook train. Thanks. Brian J Carlson P.E. Cheektowaga NY |
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Ed Hawkins
On Tuesday, March 29, 2005, at 08:02 PM, Brian J Carlson wrote:
I have 2 of the Kadee PS-1 boxcars, 248,294 built 3-56. I only have aBrian, Rutland had 100 cars built 1956 in series 200-299 with 7' door openings. This followed 100 cars from three earlier orders built 1954 and 1955, series 100-199. In 8-56 Rutland added another 101 cars, 300-399, plus #223 that was a backfill likely to replace a wrecked car. These had 8' door openings. In 4-57 the series was increased by adding cars 400-450, plus #354 as another backfill, all having 8' door openings. Photos of Rutland PS-1s show up in various locations around the country, not necessarily because they were "common" but probably because of their strikingly colorful and unique paint scheme. W.C. Whittaker photographed Rutland 136 in San Francisco circa 1955. Bob's Photo offers #106 photographed new in 1954 at San Diego, #248 in 1957 at Omaha, and #274 at Pekin, Illinois, in 1956. The latter two photos are color and the #248 is taken from a higher angle that displays the unpainted galvanized roof. These photos provide reasonable evidence that the cars got around. I don't know if Rutland had any specific reasons for buying the cars or any specific commodities they hauled. Perhaps Jeff English might have some information about this. Regards, Ed Hawkins |
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Jeff English
--- In STMFC@..., Ed Hawkins <hawk0621@s...> wrote:
Perhaps Jeff English might have some information about this.Ed's information pretty well sums it up. The cars were not acquired for a specific service but for general service in the nationwide pool. Therefore they would be likely to be seen anywhere, but only in proportion to their realtive numbers, i.e. quite infrequently. Jeff English Troy, New York |
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Garth Groff <ggg9y@...>
Jeff, Ed and Friends:
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In Henderson's CLASSIC FREIGHT CARS two volumes on 40' boxcars there are several shots of Vermont Railway and Green Mountain Railway boxcars, some of which were inherited from the Rutland. The author mentions that one common load was talc for Johnson's Baby Powder (presumably bagged). Now I know Henderson's material is not always trustworthy, but would be a likely load for some of the Rutland PS-1s? Kind regards, Garth G. Groff englishintroy wrote: --- In STMFC@..., Ed Hawkins <hawk0621@s...> wrote: |
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Montford Switzer <ZOE@...>
Jeff:
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Sounds right. I recall seeing them in central Indiana in late 1950's and early 1960's on both the NKP and MONON. They stood out. Mont Switzer -----Original Message-----
From: englishintroy [mailto:englij@...] Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 5:55 AM To: STMFC@... Subject: [STMFC] Re: Rutland Ps-1 boxcars --- In STMFC@..., Ed Hawkins <hawk0621@s...> wrote: Perhaps Jeff English might have some information about this.Ed's information pretty well sums it up. The cars were not acquired for a specific service but for general service in the nationwide pool. Therefore they would be likely to be seen anywhere, but only in proportion to their realtive numbers, i.e. quite infrequently. Jeff English Troy, New York Yahoo! Groups Links |
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benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
Garth Groff wrote:
"In Henderson's CLASSIC FREIGHT CARS two volumes on 40' boxcars there are several shots of Vermont Railway and Green Mountain Railway boxcars, some of which were inherited from the Rutland. The author mentions that one common load was talc for Johnson's Baby Powder (presumably bagged). Now I know Henderson's material is not always trustworthy, but would be a likely load for some of the Rutland PS-1s?" Yes. The Rutland served a talc plant at Gassetts, Vermont which indeed supplied Johnson's and Johnson's. This has been modeled on the NEB&W (photos from the free side of the website): http://railroad.union.rpi.edu/images/visguide/summit.asp#gassetts http://railroad.union.rpi.edu/images/photoarc/gassetts.asp Even a blind squirrel finds an acorn once in a while... Ben Hom |
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Garth Groff <ggg9y@...>
Ben,
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I think I have been past that plant. Doesn't it still have a siding? It is still operating, and if so, do they ship by rail? I didn't notice any significant activity. I will be in the area again this September, and it might be worth seeking out. Looks like a great little industry. Kind regards, Garth G. Groff benjaminfrank_hom wrote: Garth Groff wrote: |
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buchwaldfam <duff@...>
Garth,
The plant in Gassetts is still standing, however it is currently not producing. The company has consolidated the operations a few miles down the track to Ludlow, Vt. I don't know if the spur is still in place, since you really can't see down into the river bottom from the road. Even so, it is well worth swinging by to check it out. Neat, relatively small industry that was around in the late steam era, and set in a very scenic location. Even if the tracks aren't there anymore, it wouldn't be too hard to figure out where they were. Would make a great diorama or focal point on a layout. The Gassetts plant was put into operation in the mid/late 1950s, so it could be one of the factors leading to the purchase of the PS-1s by the Rutland. However, these were the first new box cars installed by the Rutland since 1924 (unless you count the 7999), so the cars were needed regardless of the new plant opening. Plus, the cars used later by Green Mountain had captive service "return to" lettering on them, and I have not seen any photos of the original Rutland cars with this sort of stenciling. I think this indicates that (at least most of) the PS-1s were in general interchange, not assigned service. The Carsten's book "Rails Beyond Rutland" makes a statement that the Gassets plant had a new bulk loading facility to handle covered hoppers in the GMRR era. So the converse would be that all loadouts during the steam/transition era would be by box car, even though the Rutland had the PS-2s by 1957. If you're going to be down there to do some Railroad archeology, take a camera and stop by in Chester, too. One of the old Rutland DS box cars is on the ground next to the depot. It's actually in very good condition, considering. Other cars worth seeing: there are some of the original Rutland PS-1s sitting in GMRR paint on the west side of Rutland, just behind the state fair grounds. There is also a Rutland wood caboose near the old station in Licester (pronounce "Lester".... I got laughed at when I tried to pronounce it how it's spelled!) For PRR fans, there are a pair of X26c's in Middlebury, next to the Agway elevator. The nice things about all of these relics are that you could drive from Middlebury to Chester in maybe an hour and a half. So they would make a good Sunday afternoon tour! Best regards, Phil Buchwald --- In STMFC@..., Garth Groff <ggg9y@v...> wrote: Ben,It is still operating, and if so, do they ship by rail? I didn't noticeany significant activity. I will be in the area again this September,and it might be worth seeking out. Looks like a great little industry. |
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Garth Groff <ggg9y@...>
Phil,
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Thanks for the suggestions. Yes, I've been to Chester and photographed the depot and the grounded boxcar, as well as a tool car over near the general store that was still on its trucks. I've only been up to Rutland just once (it's a fair distance from Ashland, NH, where my in-laws live), but saw several boxcars grounded near the VTR/GMRR engine shed, including what appears to be a rebuilt X29c (I think). There is also a string of VTR cars over in New Hampshire between Keene and Walpole along the old Aushelot (sp, I know) line at a paper mill. The were very nice about letting me shoot them. Also don't forget the equipment in the yard at Bellows Falls, including a GMRR boxcar, a B&M milk car, and a couple of RDCs. The two freight cars were painted up for a movie, CIDER HOUSE RULES (IIRC) and still looked pretty good a couple of years ago, though the lettering is all wrong. If you know where to look, you can find a lot of the old Rutland, plus other goodies. Kind regards, Garth G. Groff buchwaldfam wrote: Garth, |
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Norman+Laraine Larkin <lono@...>
I believe there was an article in RMC re. modeling the Gassetts plant. I'll rumage and see if I can locate it.
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Regards, Norm Larkin ----- Original Message -----
From: buchwaldfam To: STMFC@... Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 12:38 PM Subject: [STMFC] Re: Rutland PS-1 boxcars Garth, The plant in Gassetts is still standing, however it is currently not producing. The company has consolidated the operations a few miles down the track to Ludlow, Vt. I don't know if the spur is still in place, since you really can't see down into the river bottom from the road. Even so, it is well worth swinging by to check it out. Neat, relatively small industry that was around in the late steam era, and set in a very scenic location. Even if the tracks aren't there anymore, it wouldn't be too hard to figure out where they were. Would make a great diorama or focal point on a layout. The Gassetts plant was put into operation in the mid/late 1950s, so it could be one of the factors leading to the purchase of the PS-1s by the Rutland. However, these were the first new box cars installed by the Rutland since 1924 (unless you count the 7999), so the cars were needed regardless of the new plant opening. Plus, the cars used later by Green Mountain had captive service "return to" lettering on them, and I have not seen any photos of the original Rutland cars with this sort of stenciling. I think this indicates that (at least most of) the PS-1s were in general interchange, not assigned service. The Carsten's book "Rails Beyond Rutland" makes a statement that the Gassets plant had a new bulk loading facility to handle covered hoppers in the GMRR era. So the converse would be that all loadouts during the steam/transition era would be by box car, even though the Rutland had the PS-2s by 1957. If you're going to be down there to do some Railroad archeology, take a camera and stop by in Chester, too. One of the old Rutland DS box cars is on the ground next to the depot. It's actually in very good condition, considering. Other cars worth seeing: there are some of the original Rutland PS-1s sitting in GMRR paint on the west side of Rutland, just behind the state fair grounds. There is also a Rutland wood caboose near the old station in Licester (pronounce "Lester".... I got laughed at when I tried to pronounce it how it's spelled!) For PRR fans, there are a pair of X26c's in Middlebury, next to the Agway elevator. The nice things about all of these relics are that you could drive from Middlebury to Chester in maybe an hour and a half. So they would make a good Sunday afternoon tour! Best regards, Phil Buchwald --- In STMFC@..., Garth Groff <ggg9y@v...> wrote: > Ben, > > I think I have been past that plant. Doesn't it still have a siding? It > is still operating, and if so, do they ship by rail? I didn't notice any > significant activity. I will be in the area again this September, and it > might be worth seeking out. Looks like a great little industry. > > Kind regards, > > > Garth G. Groff > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/STMFC/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: STMFC-unsubscribe@... c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. |
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buchwaldfam <duff@...>
I've got to get back down to Rutland to see that one. The GMRR
had several X26c's. At least one had the diagonal panel roofs, but the photo is high angle off of an overpass, and doesn't show the car number. The two cars in Middlebury have rectangular panel roofs. If the car in Rutland is an X29 rebuild, even better! That one is on my to-do list, so reference material needs to be acquired! For the really adventurous, there used to be a floating bridge between Larabee's Point and Ticonderoga, NY. It had a nasty habit of capsizing, and some equipment is still down there. Best regards, Phil Buchwald --- In STMFC@..., Garth Groff <ggg9y@v...> wrote: Phil,photographed the depot and the grounded boxcar, as well as a tool car over nearthe general store that was still on its trucks.grounded near the VTR/GMRR engine shed, including what appears to be arebuilt X29c (I think).Keene and Walpole along the old Aushelot (sp, I know) line at a papermill. The were very nice about letting me shoot them. Also don't forgetthe equipment in the yard at Bellows Falls, including a GMRR boxcar, aB&M milk car, and a couple of RDCs. The two freight cars were paintedup for a movie, CIDER HOUSE RULES (IIRC) and still looked pretty good acouple of years ago, though the lettering is all wrong.plus other goodies. |
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centga@...
In a message dated 3/30/2005 1:50:04 AM Eastern Standard Time,
hawk0621@... writes: The latter two photos are color and the #248 is taken from a higher angle that displays the unpainted galvanized roof. Ed, so does end the debate about the roof color on these cars finally? Todd Horton |
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Brian J Carlson <brian@...>
Thanks to everyone who answered my PS-1 question.
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Brian J Carlson P.E. Cheektowaga NY ----- Original Message -----
From: "Montford Switzer" <ZOE@...> To: <STMFC@...> Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 7:32 AM Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: Rutland Ps-1 boxcars
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Ed Hawkins
On Wednesday, March 30, 2005, at 07:12 PM, centga@... wrote:
In a message dated 3/30/2005 1:50:04 AM Eastern Standard Time,Todd, I don't know if the "debate" will ever be ended because there are believers of the yellow roofs. When Kadee was in the planning stages for their first Rutland PS-1 model, they received more credible evidence that the roofs were unpainted than painted yellow and produced their model accordingly with an aluminum painted roof (model manufacturer's typically use aluminum to simulate unpainted galvanized steel). After the models were released, Kadee apparently received opposition from some who stated vociferously that the roofs should be yellow. Photos taken from a low angle tend to show some yellow overspray on the seam caps and this gave some people the appearance and belief that the roofs were painted yellow. Even a Rutland PS-1 painting and lettering diagram does not specify the roof to be painted yellow or any other color. Kadee has continued to release subsequent Rutland PS-1 models with "unpainted galvanized" roofs. One group of yellow roof believers is The Steam Shack of Rutland, Vermont, who had InterMountain produce proprietary Rutland PS-1s for them with yellow roofs. On their web site they make a big deal about the yellow roofs and even provide a "skeptic's kit" for $5.00 that provides masking tape and a gray metallic paint for changing the yellow roof to "unpainted galvanized." Cute. If the sponsors of these models want to believe that the roofs were painted yellow, then so be it. I've personally seen enough color photos that proved to my satisfaction (plus the Rutland painting diagram) that the cars had unpainted roofs. The Bob's Photo of #248 is perhaps the best example. Heck, you never know - maybe some Rutland PS-1s did get receive yellow roofs. Does anyone have any convincing evidence? Regards, Ed Hawkins |
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buchwaldfam <duff@...>
It's funny how these cars have acquired almost a cult
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following... There's a site called "Remembering the Rutland", and on it there was a report of an ex-Rutland PS-1 that was being moved to a museum. I have pasted the following from the site. Hope this is ok to do. "Rutland PS-1 No. 445 To Be Preserved at the RRMNE by Steve Mumley (09/03/02) Ex-Rutland PS-1 box car #445 has been saved for preservation and is on it's way to the Naugatuck Railroad (aka The Railroad Museum of New England) near Waterbury, Connecticut. After its tenure on the Rutland, the 445 was sold to Hudson Leasing and was leased to the Vermont Railway. <snip> Upon close observation of the roof, you can see where it was painted yellow! It's my understanding that it will be restored to the Rutland yellow and green as-delivered paint scheme. -Steve Mumley" The following link shows some photos of the car: http://users.rcn.com/jimdu4/SaveTheRutland/Rutland_445.htm Of course, the discription doesn't include details such as: Was the yellow paint just overspray from the sides? Was the yellow present only on the roof seam caps (they were sometimes sealed with car cement and painted over, leaving the main panels unpainted).... So the debate will probably still provide a lot of "enjoyment for years to come! Other info: Nimke's book on the Rutland includes a page from the 1961 ORER. There is a note which states that the 2nd and 3rd orders of PS-1s were equipped with permanent lading anchors. So at least these two groups of cars were intended for something in addition to talc loading. Final word, then I'll shut up: One photo in Nimke's book shows a good 3/4 view of a 200 series car. The one thing that strikes you is how wavy the separation between the green and the yellow is. So, don't be TOO careful when you mask your cars off! ;> Best Regards, Phil Buchwald --- In STMFC@..., Ed Hawkins <hawk0621@s...> wrote:
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Chet French <cfrench@...>
Ed,
The "Rutland in Color" by Philip R. Jordan includes a photo of brand new car 100 at Rutland on August 23, 1954, for a dedication ceremony. While the photo is from ground level, it appears that the roof is painted yellow. The car was one of eight in the first shipment received from the builder. Perhaps this one 'publicity' car did receive a yellow roof. Several others photos of PS-1's in the book show the roofs to be unpainted, including car 176. Chet French Dixon, IL --- In STMFC@..., Ed Hawkins <hawk0621@s...> wrote: the finally?unpainted galvanized roof. stagesToddTodd, for their first Rutland PS-1 model, they received more credibleproduced their model accordingly with an aluminum painted roof (modelgalvanized steel). After the models were released, Kadee apparently receivedbe yellow. Photos taken from a low angle tend to show some yellowand belief that the roofs were painted yellow. Even a Rutland PS-1painting and lettering diagram does not specify the roof to be paintedyellow or any other color. Kadee has continued to release subsequent RutlandPS-1 models with "unpainted galvanized" roofs.for them with yellow roofs. On their web site they make a big dealabout the yellow roofs and even provide a "skeptic's kit" for $5.00 thatyellow roof to "unpainted galvanized." Cute. If the sponsors of thesemodels want to believe that the roofs were painted yellow, then so be it.I've personally seen enough color photos that proved to my satisfactionroofs. The Bob's Photo of #248 is perhaps the best example. Heck, younever know - maybe some Rutland PS-1s did get receive yellow roofs. Does |
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centga@...
Phil, I think that's the site where I originally ran up on this controversy. The issue seems to be were the cars delivered with the galvanized roof or not. It's highly possible that if they were repainted in the shops that they just sprayed the whole car yellow. IIRC this website has several "eye witness accounts" of the cars having a yellow roof. But I wonder if they have researched whether or not these were "as delivered" or simply shop repainted cars. Regardless of what eye witness accounts say or diagrams I'll take photographic evidence any day. If Mr Hawkins has a photo of the cars with a galvanized roof then that's pretty convincing evidence to me. Todd Horton
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-----Original Message-----
From: buchwaldfam <duff@...> To: STMFC@... Sent: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 16:30:02 -0000 Subject: [STMFC] Re: Rutland PS-1 boxcars It's funny how these cars have acquired almost a cult following... There's a site called "Remembering the Rutland", and on it there was a report of an ex-Rutland PS-1 that was being moved to a museum. I have pasted the following from the site. Hope this is ok to do. "Rutland PS-1 No. 445 To Be Preserved at the RRMNE by Steve Mumley (09/03/02) Ex-Rutland PS-1 box car #445 has been saved for preservation and is on it's way to the Naugatuck Railroad (aka The Railroad Museum of New England) near Waterbury, Connecticut. After its tenure on the Rutland, the 445 was sold to Hudson Leasing and was leased to the Vermont Railway. <snip> Upon close observation of the roof, you can see where it was painted yellow! It's my understanding that it will be restored to the Rutland yellow and green as-delivered paint scheme. -Steve Mumley" The following link shows some photos of the car: http://users.rcn.com/jimdu4/SaveTheRutland/Rutland_445.htm Of course, the discription doesn't include details such as: Was the yellow paint just overspray from the sides? Was the yellow present only on the roof seam caps (they were sometimes sealed with car cement and painted over, leaving the main panels unpainted).... So the debate will probably still provide a lot of "enjoyment for years to come! Other info: Nimke's book on the Rutland includes a page from the 1961 ORER. There is a note which states that the 2nd and 3rd orders of PS-1s were equipped with permanent lading anchors. So at least these two groups of cars were intended for something in addition to talc loading. Final word, then I'll shut up: One photo in Nimke's book shows a good 3/4 view of a 200 series car. The one thing that strikes you is how wavy the separation between the green and the yellow is. So, don't be TOO careful when you mask your cars off! ;> Best Regards, Phil Buchwald --- In STMFC@..., Ed Hawkins <hawk0621@s...> wrote:
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buchwaldfam <duff@...>
Didja ever see the all-green, no-yellow Rutland PS-1s?
A guy down in Bellows falls showed me a black and white photo of one that had been repainted that way. Yup, it was still a Rutland car, not a GMRR! Regards, Phil Buchwald --- In STMFC@..., centga@a... wrote: Phil, I think that's the site where I originally ran up on thiscontroversy. The issue seems to be were the cars delivered with the galvanized roof or not. It's highly possible that if they were repainted in the shops that they just sprayed the whole car yellow. IIRC this website has several "eye witness accounts" of the cars having a yellow roof. But I wonder if they have researched whether or not these were "as delivered" or simply shop repainted cars. Regardless of what eye witness accounts say or diagrams I'll take photographic evidence any day. If Mr Hawkins has a photo of the cars with a galvanized roof then that's pretty convincing evidence to me. Todd Horton there was a report of an ex-Rutland PS-1 that was being moved to amuseum. I have pasted the following from the site. Hope this is ok to do.is on it's way to the Naugatuck Railroad (aka The Railroad Museum ofcan see where it was painted yellow! It's my understanding that itwill be restored to the Rutland yellow and green as-delivered paintWas the yellow paint just overspray from the sides? Was the yellowwith car cement and painted over, leaving the main panelsunpainted).... So the debate will probably still provide a lot of "enjoymentfor years to come!shows a good 3/4 view of a 200 series car. The one thing that strikesyou is how wavy the separation between the green and the yellow is.So, don't be TOO careful when you mask your cars off! ;>are believers of the yellow roofs. |
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armprem
Twofer:Generally the car number would be located on the frame almost in the
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center of the car.I have a color shot of an all green PS-1 that I took.These were painted solid green after the Rutland ceased operations.Other PS-1s were leased to the MEC.Armand Premo ----- Original Message -----
From: "buchwaldfam" <duff@...> To: <STMFC@...> Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 2:44 PM Subject: [STMFC] Re: Rutland PS-1 boxcars
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centga@...
Phil, that would be a neat shot to see. Maybe even a possible candidate to send to Kadee for a model. Todd Horton
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-----Original Message-----
From: buchwaldfam <duff@...> To: STMFC@... Sent: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 19:44:43 -0000 Subject: [STMFC] Re: Rutland PS-1 boxcars Didja ever see the all-green, no-yellow Rutland PS-1s? A guy down in Bellows falls showed me a black and white photo of one that had been repainted that way. Yup, it was still a Rutland car, not a GMRR! Regards, Phil Buchwald --- In STMFC@..., centga@a... wrote: Phil, I think that's the site where I originally ran up on thiscontroversy. The issue seems to be were the cars delivered with the galvanized roof or not. It's highly possible that if they were repainted in the shops that they just sprayed the whole car yellow. IIRC this website has several "eye witness accounts" of the cars having a yellow roof. But I wonder if they have researched whether or not these were "as delivered" or simply shop repainted cars. Regardless of what eye witness accounts say or diagrams I'll take photographic evidence any day. If Mr Hawkins has a photo of the cars with a galvanized roof then that's pretty convincing evidence to me. Todd Horton there was a report of an ex-Rutland PS-1 that was being moved to amuseum. I have pasted the following from the site. Hope this is ok to do.is on it's way to the Naugatuck Railroad (aka The Railroad Museum ofcan see where it was painted yellow! It's my understanding that itwill be restored to the Rutland yellow and green as-delivered paintWas the yellow paint just overspray from the sides? Was the yellowwith car cement and painted over, leaving the main panelsunpainted).... So the debate will probably still provide a lot of "enjoymentfor years to come!shows a good 3/4 view of a 200 series car. The one thing that strikesyou is how wavy the separation between the green and the yellow is.So, don't be TOO careful when you mask your cars off! ;>are believers of the yellow roofs. Yahoo! Groups Links |
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